mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
| reply to ender9
Re: WNHDEB111 Review and Impression
said by ender9  :Doesn't that make the WNHDE111's completely useless as far as MIMO data rates go assuming every other device on the network is Gigabit and high-end? I mean, the data can only move as fast as the slowest part. Am I missing something here? If this is the case, does anyone know of any 802.11n MIMO gear that does not have this bottlenecking problem? Yes the WNHDE111 is inhibited for the reasons that I have already articulated.
IT is difficult to compare Apples to Apples in this instances because the WNHDE111 is unique in it's class of gear -- hopefully in a couple of months the other Vendors may release similar product to the WNHDE111 or I am hoping that Netgear wakes up and improves the WNHDE111 by adding the Gig Ports.
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David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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meowBB
join:2002-01-21
Hayward, CA | reply to chucko
If it cannot achieve 100Mbit wireless throughput even in close range, 100Mbit ethernet port is enough. That maybe the reason. |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
| said by meowBB :If it cannot achieve 100Mbit wireless throughput even in close range, 100Mbit ethernet port is enough. That maybe the reason. And the real point is IF it cannot achieve 100Mbit wireless throughput THEN Netgear failed to properly implement MIMO technology for this expensive gear.
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David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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ANSWER
@comcast.net
| reply to chucko
NEtworking Enthusiasts,
This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of Advanced Wireless from NETGEAR .
Multiple spatial streams make use of multiple paths to send multiple streams of data. This effectively doubles the maximum throughput possible compared to G wireless which has single stream. Also using channel bonding 40 MHz channel it doubles the speed once again. 801.11n also enhances the MAC efficiency.
The WNHDE111 is 802.11n Draft 2.0 certified by WiFi Alliance.
What we are talking about is the path loss as you move away from the source and at distance what the actual throughput is. If you look at any material on wireless, the effective throughput goes down with distance. This is plain simple physics. This will happen with or without MIMO. As I explained earlier, the maximum 300 Mbps is the max PHY rate with the effective throughput typically 50-60% of the PHY rate.
The objective of the WNHDE111 device is to do multiple 1080p HD streams (typically 2-3)typically 20 Mbps each throughout a single family home. If you are close enough in a single room, you will get the benefit of over 100 Mbps with gigabit ports. But you will see as you move out from the source, the effective TCP or UDP wireless throughput typically goes below 100 Mbps in any 802.11n gear and hence putting in gigabit ports on this device currently is an overkill unless later generation of 802.11n supports 450 Mbps or 600 Mbps Maximum PHY rate.
I will request you to look at an interesting white paper on Aruba website to learn more about wireless-N.
»www.arubanetworks.com/pdf/techno···.11n.pdf
Thanks
-Som |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
1 edit | said by ANSWER :
This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of Advanced Wireless from NETGEAR .
Multiple spatial streams make use of multiple paths to send multiple streams of data. This effectively doubles the maximum throughput possible compared to G wireless which has single stream. Also using channel bonding 40 MHz channel it doubles the speed once again. 801.11n also enhances the MAC efficiency.
The WNHDE111 is 802.11n Draft 2.0 certified by WiFi Alliance.
The objective of the WNHDE111 device is to do multiple 1080p HD streams (typically 2-3)typically 20 Mbps each throughout a single family home. If you are close enough in a single room, you will get the benefit of over 100 Mbps with gigabit ports. But you will see as you move out from the source, the effective TCP or UDP wireless throughput typically goes below 100 Mbps in any 802.11n gear and hence putting in gigabit ports on this device currently is an overkill unless later generation of 802.11n supports 450 Mbps or 600 Mbps Maximum PHY rate. Based on my experiences implementing wireless systems in the field MIMO technology properly implemented has the following characteristics:
Properly implemented MIMO systems divide a data stream into multiple unique streams, each of which is modulated and transmitted through a different radio-antenna chain at the same time in the same frequency channel. By taking advantage of multi-path, reflections of the signals, each MIMO receive antenna-radio chain is a linear combination of the multiple transmitted data streams. The data streams are separated at the receiver using MIMO algorithms that rely on estimates of all channels between each transmitter and each receiver.
Each multi-path route can be treated as a separate channel creating multiple virtual wires over which to transmit signals. Properly implemented MIMO employs multiple, spatially separated antennas to take advantage of these virtual wires created by multi-path and transfer more data. In addition to multiplying throughput, range is increased because of an antenna diversity advantage, since each receive antenna has a measurement of each transmitted data stream.
With Properly implemented MIMO systems, the maximum data rate per channel grows linearly with the number of different data streams that are transmitted in the same channel.
A Properly implemented MIMO system is Not a Typical Smart Antenna System -- consider the following:
Typical one-dimensional smart antenna wireless systems sometimes use a combination of beam-forming to focus the transmitted signal energy, and receive combining or receive diversity to capture the strongest signal. Beam-forming may provide better range in certain applications, but serious issues include the creation of hidden nodes, a reduction in the number of clients that can be supported, and power consumption requirements that limit the number of transmit chains. In receive diversity solutions, the diversity antenna switches between multiple antennas to receive the strongest signal and improve reliability, but since there is no additional signal processing the quality of the signal remains the same. Similarly, while receive combining can process signals from multiple antennas to accommodate the affects of fading and multi-path, neither technique increases data rates or capacity.
And from reading your commentary it sound to me like the Netgear WNHDEB111 has implemented a Typical Smart Antenna System ... which IMO is why you're not going to get the performance that many should be able to get with a Properly implemented MIMO system.
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David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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Mediaman
join:2008-02-04
| reply to Cliff Zinphron
said by Cliff Zinphron :
I bought one of these as Best Buy as well. Best damn piece of networking equipment I've ever bought for my home! I stream HD Divx files to my XBox 360 like a champ. Huge files mind you. I haven't hooked it up to my notebook to test speeds, but I don't really care its the lolcat's meow. Just curious, what type of 5GHz network card to you have in your laptop?
I have an Intel 2200bg (2.4 GZ) which I know cannot work... thinking of a WDNA3100 might be a good choice.
»www.netgear.com/Products/Adapter···100.aspx |
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REGHIR
@wicoff.com
| reply to chucko
Just to let everyone know new firmware released as of 2/28/08
WNHDE111 Firmware Version 1.2.7_1.0.1
Published Feb. 28, 2008
New Features & Bug Fixes: For the latest troubleshooting, see the WNHDE111 Support Page. Recent changes include:
Cannot Connect Gaming Console
Troubleshooting Wireless Products
Improving Wireless Range
Fixed unstable wireless connection issues with Intel Centrino 4965AGN 802.11n adapter.
Fixed javascript error in access point "Advanced Wireless Settings" page
Fixed the bug where the access point "Logs" page sometimes takes long time to display or time out
Some other minor web GUI bug fixes
Known Issues
In 11n mode, WEP or TKIP-only WPA-PSK do not get high throughput, as it's not recommended by the 11n spec. Recommend to run WPA mixed mode, or WPA2 only.
In Safari web-browser, a few of the bridge Web GUI's pages cannot be displayed completely: The table in Status category's "Wireless", "Logs", "Statistics" and "WISH sessions" pages are not displayed.
Reason: This is because the old Safari browser does not support XML format HTML display. Upgrading to the new Safari version should get it to work.
Centrino ABG adapter on some PCs might not detect the AP through a Scan, manually setting the SSID and security will work.
In noisy environment and with heavy traffic, the WNHDE111 bridge occasionally disconnects from the WNHDE111 access point for a few seconds and reconnects to the AP. |
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Mediaman
join:2008-02-04
| reply to mozerd
said by mozerd : it sound to me like the Netgear WNHDEB111 has implemented a Typical Smart Antenna System ... which IMO is why you're not going to get the performance that many should be able to get with a Properly implemented MIMO system. So who then does manufacture an 802.11N / 5ghz / Gigabit wireless access point that has a Properly implemented MIMO system. ??? |
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mozerd
Light Will Pierce The Darkness
Premium,MVM
join:2004-04-23
Nepean, ON
2 edits | said by Mediaman So who then does manufacture an 802.11N / 5ghz / Gigabit wireless access point that has a Properly implemented MIMO system. ?
For the consumer market no single OEM has yet produced 5Ghz gear utilizing MIMO properly based on my experiences so far. IMO, currently the only CHIPSET that incorporates the MIMO technology properly is called the AGN400 and that chipset has been frozen by Qualcomm due [EDIT] to what I suspect are legal issues. Hopefully those legal issues may be resolved soon.
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David Mozer
IT-Expert on Call
Information Technology for Home and Business |
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higginst
VIP
join:2005-04-16
Earlysville, VA
| reply to chucko
Review just posted:
»www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/···0333/96/
Actually does pretty good for maximum throughput.
Not so much for distance.
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Small Network Help @ »smallnetbuilder.com |
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mikepaul
join:2008-03-10
Columbia, SC
1 edit | reply to ANSWER
said by ANSWER :
NEtworking Enthusiasts,
This is Som Choudhury, Product Line Manager of Advanced Wireless from NETGEAR .
...
The WNHDE111 is 802.11n Draft 2.0 certified by WiFi Alliance.
...
-Som
Hi. I've had the WNHDEB111 kit since this past Saturday.
The troubling part of my purchase decision was that the logo seen on other Netgear packages, the one I read about that indicated upgradeability to the 802.11N Final Spec, was missing from the WNHDEB111 package. Is that logo specific to routers, or is there another reason it's missing?
The two units have exhibited the disconnect problem documented on the firmware download page, but work better when not in Auto mode. However, I still have odd issues, like using the Configuration utility to log in to the bridge unit attached to my Xbox 360 and having it crash after submitting the password. It came right back after pulling the plug, but this does make me worry.
Is antenna orientation important? The two units are on the same floor, separated by 22 feet and two walls. I have them parallel to each other, but is that optimal?
My HD streaming is to the Xbox 360, so a gigabit NIC isn't a big deal now, but if you were to think about upgrading that for next year's model, I do have gigabit in the PC near the 360 and wouldn't mind sharing the connection.
Thanks... |
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flunkout
join:2002-07-27
San Jose, CA
| I'm in the same situation as you, mikepaul. Hopefully someone will answer whether this product would be upgradeable to the final 802.11n spec. $200 is a lot to spend on a product that may not be fully compatible.
I was hoping that the 802.11n spec would have been finalized by now. |
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Mediaman
join:2008-02-04
| reply to mozerd
said by mozerd :said by Mediaman So who then does manufacture an 802.11N / 5ghz / Gigabit wireless access point that has a Properly implemented MIMO system. ? For the consumer market no single OEM has yet produced 5Ghz gear utilizing MIMO properly based on my experiences so far. IMO, currently the only CHIPSET that incorporates the MIMO technology properly is called the AGN400 and that chipset has been frozen by Qualcomm ... mozerd...
What is your opinion on the LinkSys lineup ( eg WAP4400N or WRVS4400N) with respect to 'properly implelemented MIMO' ??
I note that unit, while not 5 GHZ, it does have advantages over the WNHDE111 in that it has gigbit ports and operates at 802.11g as well as 801.11n... but I am unclear if it has a poor or good MIMO implementation. |
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David803sc
Premium
join:2001-02-22
Charleston, SC
| reply to chucko
I just picked up two of these today and have all macs how do I connect to the web interface for configuration and firmware upgrade? the CD it came with says launch the index.htm file on the CD that file does not exist any help would be appreciated thanks?
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Home Telecom 5Mb Symmetrical Service, DLink DIR-655, 2 Linksys 5 Port Gigabit Switches, Windows Server 2003, Windows XP Media Center Edition, MAC OS X, MSNTV2, Xbox 360, Vonage Linksys PAP2v2, 2 DISH Network 622's |
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another_owner
@comcast.net
| I was able to find an executable (ConfigAssistant.exe) on the disc, but had the benefit(?) of windows. That utility allowed me to change the ip address of the units to be compatible with my network and then I could browse the admin web gui directly at the new ip. Hope this is helpful. |
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mikepaul
join:2008-03-10
Columbia, SC
| reply to flunkout
I got a remote control switch and so far (2 days) it works OK.
»www.amazon.com/Koolatron-IR-Remo···006II49A
The programming wasn't a snap, but since the switch was responding to ALL IR traffic I needed to set it to just use the PowerToggle event my Logitech 360 remote downloaded from the support site. The button on the top of the switch makes a more convenient on/off switch for rebooting the bridge than reaching around and pulling the plug when it disconnects, so if I do experience trouble it's at least more convenient.
Still hoping for a firmware update that keeps the bridge going 24/7/365 though... |
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