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DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| reply to fw
Re: [Need Info] Can this be made into a reality?
said by fw  :What would it take to have a dedicated server that records each of these streams and then redistributes these to customers with TVoIP boxes? This of course implies that I would have to custom flash (or order from manufacturer) IPoTV boxes (if such a thing is possible). There are clearly ways to handle all of the technical challenges. For example, there are multiple ways to convert computer monitor output into video signals that TVs can use. And there are also "modulator" devices on the market that can take your own custom video/audio output (which could come from a PC doing web streaming) and convert them into your own custom cable channel. And there is even software/hardware that lets you do your own custom DVR (computer recording/playback) of channels. So from a technical standpoint, this is clearly feasible (if possibly a PITA to put all the pieces together to accomplish it).
But the thing I think you may be overlooking, is that it might not be legal to do this! I'm not a lawyer, so this is just my (educated) guess, but I would think that doing this would make you (in the eyes of the law) into a cable TV operator (since you are distributing TV signals to other households for profit). And generally speaking, being a cable TV operator is under a significantly different set of laws, than simply what you do with your computer and TV "in your own home" is.
And while it might be very legal to use (or even build your own) "set top box" for watching (legally available) computer content on your PC (because in the eyes of the law, this may be legally equivalent to just using your TV as your PC's "computer monitor", and those web sites already implicitly gave a license for individuals to watch those streams on their own PCs), that doesn't necessarily mean its legal to take that same content and resell it to other households without first getting (and likely paying for) explicit licenses from those TV stations you are making available (because in the eyes of the law, the latter may be considered illegal "rebroadcast")! And ignoring that little legal requirement, potentially could get you into a LOT of legal hot water.
So if you are really planning to go this route, I would seriously suggest you check with a competent lawyer (skilled in such broadcast license issues) first, before blindly forging ahead trying to solve the technical issues... | |
fw
join:2005-09-18
| DracoFelis: Yes, I thought about the very possible legal issues, and that's what's keeping me from going with the re-broadcasting route. The other option is just connecting the users directly to the free stream. The reason I wanted to rebroadcast is to get rid of buffering issues that free streams tend to have. However, I don't think I want to start legal fights, especially since I was going to charge the users as little as possible (they're senior citizens), so it might be a bad plan after all.
craig70130: If I was going to run a server, it would not be under my ISP. I would have to buy one (from the many offered online). But then again, as DracoFelis clearly pointed out, redistributing the signal might not be the best way to go.
So, I'm thinking that a media center PC is the best way to go for now. That way, the users would have to pay for the box itself (1 time payment, or split into many), and also for the broadband internet (which I would help them find for the lowest price that would do the job).
I'm researching this stuff in my free time, so all your feedback is appreciated. Right now, I'm trying to determine the necessary hardware. I'm thinking at the minimum, a microATX or nanoICX form factor with a video output (and input for cable/satellite signal pass-through) will do. | |
DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
edit:
February 8th, @11:54PM
| said by fw :So, I'm thinking that a media center PC is the best way to go for now. That way, the users would have to pay for the box itself (1 time payment, or split into many), and also for the broadband internet (which I would help them find for the lowest price that would do the job). I'm researching this stuff in my free time, so all your feedback is appreciated. Right now, I'm trying to determine the necessary hardware. I'm thinking at the minimum, a microATX or nanoICX form factor with a video output (and input for cable/satellite signal pass-through) will do. That's quite doable.
The main issues are cost, hassle of setting this up, and the hassles of dealing with the PC's (fan) noise (while "watching TV"). While its easy to get very fancy (with a price tag to match), a scaled down version of such a PC can be done reasonably cheaply (and with just about any PC hardware that is easy to find). However there are some features that while not technically necessary, can be very desirable in a multi-media PC project like this.
For example, it would make things much simpler to setup, if you make sure your PC has a video card that can also directly output TV compatible video (likely either S-Video or composite video). This isn't strictly needed, because there are external "scan converters" that can take VGA output and convert it to TV video signals. But if your PC's video card directly output TV compatible video, you will avoid the expense of such a converter box, and the hassle of having yet one more thing to plug together to get this to work.
Some additional considerations and trade/offs you might want to think about:
Do the streams you are interested in work on Linux (for example, via the Linux version of RealPlayer)? Some multi-media is MS-Windows only, but some sites will play with the proper software installed on Linux (as one example, there is a Linux version of RealPlayer available). If you can run all the steams you are interested in via Linux, you could possibly save a little on the costs of the PCs (as you don't necessarily have to fork over money for a MicroSoft software license). For example, a few years back I helped an elderly woman (since deceased) with a Linux PC, which I setup to make it easy for her to stream her religious "TV" and "internet radio" broadcasts. Since the (religious) web site she was interested in supported multiple stream formats, I was lucky enough to find a format for both the "TV" and "radio" broadcasts that Linux could handle (I'm pretty sure the video was RealPlayer, and I think the radio might have been streaming MP3). As a result, we saved over $100 on the PC, by getting a cheap Linux box (from Walmart.com), instead of buying a Windows based PC.
Even if you do decide to go Windows, I wouldn't bother spending extra for the "Windows Media Center" version of Windows. Instead just go with plain XP (or Vista Home, if you really have no choice about Vista), and then add the multi-media programs of your choice (vs trying to use the software built into WMC). While I don't have personal experience with Windows Media Center, I have heard that virtually everything that version of Windows can do, can usually be done BETTER with 3rd party programs run on other versions of Windows. So all WMC does beyond giving you some crippled multi-media features (that you could get better with 3rd party software anyway), is get in your way. For example, a co-worker of mine told me how he once foolishly let the internet WMC DVR features record a program (via his TV tuner hardware) that he was very interested in. And guess what WMC did? It let him record the program (without warning) and stored it on disk, BUT when he later tried to view that recording WMC refused to let him view it because it felt he didn't have a license to view the program he had recorded (to time-shift for later viewing)...
Do keep in mind about the noise. One problem with that Linux box setup I did, was the noise from the PC's fan was a little distracting when watching TV or listening to radio. If I was doing it over, I might even consider spending a little bit more for a laptop. Why? Because a laptop would not only be smaller, and use less electricity, it would also be a LOT quieter (which can matter when you are watching TV or relaxing to a "radio" station). Of course, laptops cost a little more, and are not a "sturdy" as desktops. But they are a lot quieter, and take up less space next to a TV. And laptop's even come with their own (built in) "battery backup". And if you do go with a laptop, remember you don't care about the size of the laptop's display (so no point spending extra for a big laptop display), as you will usually be using the laptop's video out anyway.
If you really want to get fancy, it is possible (with external equipment) to combine your own "channel(s)" with the channels coming from the cable company (assuming you have cable TV), and make both sets of signals available to all TVs in the house. In order to do this, you will need to have a channel filter where the cable enters the house (to prevent your "channel(s)" from back-feeding into the cable company's system) and one or more "modulators" to make your own "channel(s)" by feeding the video/audio of your choice (such as the output of your media center PC). While I haven't bought the equipment yet, I have been considering doing this in my home. If I do go ahead with this (I've priced the equipment, and a good filter + a single channel stereo TV modulator can be had for a little over $100 for both), I should have a setup where any TV in the house can see the output of my "media PC" (my laptop) as if it were just another cable TV channel (but only in our house). And that should let me view any legal steam/video (including things like streaming movies via my NetFlix subscription), from any TV in the home that is wired up to our home TV cable (instead of being limited to just watching locally at the PC itself).
And with the right equipment and software its also possible to add DVR (recording/playback) abilities to a media PC. This can get a little costly if you get carried away, but it is a feature that can be added. For ideas in this area (hardware/software suggestions, how-to documents, etc), check out the "Build Your Own PVR" web site: »www.byopvr.com/
Edit/Addition:
Oh yeah, I almost forgot the most important thing: Make sure your PC has enough CPU for the task.
Remember, multi-media (including video streaming) can actually use a fair amount of CPU to do all that video/audio rendering in real time. And if you max out your PC's CPU (which is all too easy to do with some of the CPU intensive video formats out there), the quality of the video (and audio) will suffer. Thankfully, even "entry level" PCs these days are pretty fast, so this isn't anywhere near the problem it once was (especially if you are limiting yourself to simple streaming of one "TV station" at a time). But just as "gamers" can benefit from making sure they have enough CPU for the task, the same can be true with a PC being used in "home theater" type tasks. | |
fw
join:2005-09-18
| Thanks for the lenghty comment, DracoFelis. As you've mentioned, there's lots to consider.
I was going to go with a common TV video out signal (not vga), and I am planning for a video in (for cable/sat box passthrough). Then again, I haven't had the time to research this to see what's available, I'm doing this in my free time.
Most of the people I'm doing this for live in apartments, so combining the signal in the way you mentioned will not always be possible. Although I could combine it right before the TV  I want this box to be an all-in-one (none of any sort of converters).
The idea of using Linux is good, but most of the streams are for Windows Media, are there players in Linux that can handle this?
I also don't want to buy already built PCs from retail stores, but rather start with a small box and cram stuff in. Of course, I'll have to consider overheating and try to limit the fan noise to a minimum.
The more I think about it, the more I get excited about adding the video conferencing feature. Most of these grandpas and grandmas have their grandchildren and relatives living far away, and giving them the ability to see them in the comfort of their own home at any time (when the other party is online) would be great. All it would take is custom fitting a webcam with a mic to the front of the enclosure.
Can you think of any other great features? | |
DracoFelis
Premium
join:2003-06-15
| said by fw :I was going to go with a common TV video out signal (not vga), and I am planning for a video in (for cable/sat box passthrough). Then again, I haven't had the time to research this to see what's available, I'm doing this in my free time. If all you want to do is feed into a single TV (and you aren't planning to expand this into a setup with DVR abilities), than video/audio into the PC is an expense you can skip. Instead, you can bring both cable and video signals to the TV by ANY of the following means (take your pick, depending upon the TV):
1) If the TV has a free (not used by say a DVD player) set of video/audio inputs, just hook up the PC's output to those inputs on the TV (and hook the cable up to the cable jack of the TV). With almost all TVs on the market, this will allow you to choose between your "video" source, and any cable TV channels, from the TVs remote. So you can just leave things hooked up all the time, and the user would just see the PC's output as another "channel" on that TV. And remember, a lot of TVs these days have TWO sets of external inputs (either of which can be selected from the TVs remote, so you can hook stuff up to both sets), one set of jacks on the front of the TV and a second set on the back.
or 2) If the user already has a VCR hooked up to the TV (and yes, I know DVD players have made VCRs less common then they used to be), odds are good that the VCR has one or more free sets of video/audio inputs. So you could just hook up the PC to the VCR, and let the user tune the PC via the VCR (which again, just requires the cables to hook things up). And in theory, you might even be able to make VCR recording of the streaming programs on your PC. However, since this option is taking advantage of the VCR's tuner to watch the PC programs, you would lose the ability to watch the PC (on the TV) during those times you were recording some other program on the VCR.
or 3) If all of your TV's inputs are "maxed out", it's still easy to get a manual video/audio switch box (many of these boxes are under $20 retail), and hook that box up to the TV. The user would then have to get up and flip a switch (on the box) when they wanted to change video/audio sources (for example when switching between their DVD player, and their media PC), so there is a minor hassle with this option. But those switch boxes do allow you to easily pick between video sources without having to swap cables each time you want to change what you are viewing. Instead, you just have to press the proper button (on the manual selector box) to choose which video device is currently feeding into the TV.
said by fw :The idea of using Linux is good, but most of the streams are for Windows Media, are there players in Linux that can handle this? Not sure. You will have to do your own research in this area, I'm afraid.
At the time I setup the Linux box (for streaming), Windows Media streams were NOT supported in Linux (but thankfully the religious site the lady was interested in did support some formats other than just WMP, so Linux was an option due to those other formats supported by the web site). And even if (as I seem to recall hearing) there is now Linux software to support some "Windows Media" content (via "reverse engineering" of the MicroSoft CODECs), it's almost certain that any "Windows Media" content that uses DRM (content lockdown/restriction) features wouldn't have been licensed for use on Linux platforms. So even if some WMP formats are now supported under Linux, its almost certain that the DRM restricted versions are NOT supported.
said by fw :I also don't want to buy already built PCs from retail stores, but rather start with a small box and cram stuff in. Of course, I'll have to consider overheating and try to limit the fan noise to a minimum. In that case, check the web (including that PVR building site) for info on "media PCs" or "home theater PCs" for ideas on what people have actually built. Even if you decide it's not worth it (cost wise) to add DVR (video recording/playback) abilities to your box, you might still benefit by looking over what PCs people built (for playing media), what hardware they used, and how they crammed it into cases that looked like they fit in well with other devices next to a TV...
said by fw :The more I think about it, the more I get excited about adding the video conferencing feature. Should be pretty simple. Just needs a directional microphone (or better yet, a microphone on a headset), a web camera, and the proper software. And that is one area that clearly can be done with Linux based software (as well as easily being done via Windows), so it doesn't matter much which OS you have on the media PC.
And as long as you are going that route, you might as well put VoIP (internet phone) support on the PC as well (check out the »VOIP Tech Chat forum, for loads of info on this topic). Of course, those of us big into VoIP tend to use stand alone VoIP adapters (both for better sound, and ease of use without having to have the PC powered up to "use our phone"), so some of us wouldn't use that feature even if it were present. But for the many people that don't already have dedicated VoIP hardware, they might find it really a nice feature to be able to make cheap (or in some cases free) calls from the "media PC" they are getting anyway...
said by fw :Can you think of any other great features? As I mentioned before, search the web for blogs/articles/etc about "home theater" or "media center" PC setups, as many video enthusiasts have played with this technology. So there are many good ideas out there. | |
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