TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ |  Green Party of Sweeden - another name for communists
They want the state to own everything and private people and companies nothing. It is hardly surprising that they support the dismantling of copyright systems - which flow from the concept of private property. |
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grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03
New York, NY
1 edit | Intellectual property is not a form of private property, it's an idiotic idea that was devised by authoritarian morons. The founding fathers originally put IP in because they were trying to protect books and the references were mostly to patents. Patents are a good idea because they are actually enforceable. Notice who actually make money off of IP, the intermediaries. In other words the people who have no value to society other than the ability to open their mouths and yap idiocy.
The concept of copyright was a social contract to gain the most for the public, which is if anything the most communist logic in your terms.
Wasn't Cary Sherman pissed off a few months ago over some DRM thing that affected him? |
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Kearnstd
Elf Wizard
Premium
join:2002-01-22
Mullica Hill, NJ | reply to TKJunkMail
the inital IP laws also didnt keep stuff out of public domain for 100+ years.
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[65 Arcanist]Filan(High Elf) Zone: Broadband Reports |
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TScheisskopf
World News Trust
join:2005-02-13
Belvidere, NJ | reply to TKJunkMail
Oh man.
/me holds head in hands |
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hghlkgfhl6df
@verizon.net
 from:
TKJunkMail 
thumbs down from:
dentman42
| reply to grandpinaple
said by grandpinaple :The founding fathers originally put IP in because they were trying to protect books and the references were mostly to patents. Books and patents ... as opposed to all the other creations that required IP protection at the time?
Do you think they sat around and deliberated protection of recorded music and video performances and left them out on purpose for some reason? |
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swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
 ·RoadRunner Cable
1 edit | reply to TKJunkMail
People promote fallacies on boards like this, and I sometimes feel obligated to show how they are erroneous, for the benefit of readers who would otherwise be encouraged to think in terms of deceptive rhetoric.
In the USA, "communism" has been made into a term of condemnation for anything that diverges from the sort of corporate-crony capitalism that exists here inthe US. In fact, the system proposed by Marx and other theorists is rather different from your crude caricature as "the state to own everything and private people and companies nothing". For example, it's only capital, not all property, that is supposed to be state-owned.
Communism is actually a very bad system, but for reasons the parent poster shows an ignorance of (and which have little bearing on the current copyright controversy). Its main defect is substituting a command economy for free markets, which leads to irrational allocation of resources.
As for the Green party in Sweden, they're basically in the genre known as "Social Democrats". What they advocate is more of a welfare state, not a Soviet- or Maoist-style communist system.
More to the point, the differences on copyright are not a case of "property rights" versus "communism". In fact, copyright is more of a feudal concept than either capitalist or communist. As grandpinaple very imperfectly tries to point out, intellectual property is a monopoly established by the state by fiat. As such, it is grossly contrary to the principles of classical capitalism, which recject government interference in the market (and especially artificial monopolies). |
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james
join:2001-02-26
antarctica | reply to Kearnstd
oh, but if I "invent" some crappy chord progression I should be able to stop anyone else from using it, otherwise horses might start eating eachother! ohnoes end of world help! |
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mcmillan
join:2001-04-15
West Bloomfield, MI |  reply to TKJunkMail
Oh, you changed the name, again. How cute.  |
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Warez_Zealot
Rural land of the rising sun
join:2006-04-19
japan
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said by TKJunkMail :They want the state to own everything and private people and companies nothing. It is hardly surprising that they support the dismantling of copyright systems - which flow from the concept of private property. The smarter people are the harder it is for large corporations and politicians to take advantage of them. I had a ton of Swede exchange students on my dorm floor at school, and I was amazed that the Gov paid their tuition, gave them money for living and that their whole country is like that (everyone has B.A's and MA's).
I wish Canada was more like them. I would gladly pay higher taxes is we had free post secondary education. Unfortunately this won't happen because stupid people are just that; lobbyist and the rich will spew propaganda that taxes will go way up, when the only people who will have to pay way more taxes are the rich, while lower and middle class will pay marginally more.
I'm a firm believer that the more you take from society the more you have to give back. USA is a great example of this, the rich and **AA's have taken enough, it's time to start giving back. |
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grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03
New York, NY
1 edit | How are the real rich taking from society? The RIAA are not a valid example since they steal from society they do not make tangible products they only extort money from people. As for "the rich" who do you mean specifically? As I recall the so called rich employ the "poor and middle class" to make the products that are bought.
The US was founded on personal liberty and the notion of being a slave to society is just as disgusting as any of the so called government abuses that go on today. The difference is that the redistribution of wealth factor has that nice little altruism going for it. If you could keep more of your taxes you could just pay for your own secondary education instead of having someone else pick up the tab. One way or another somebody pays for it, since there is no free money in the government. At best you are stealing the resources of those who have no interest in a higher education (higher education doesn't immediately mean a smarter populace, it just means a populace that can learn and be trained like a dog to do tasks). |
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Warez_Zealot
Rural land of the rising sun
join:2006-04-19
japan
2 edits | said by grandpinaple :How are the real rich taking from society? The RIAA are not a valid example since they steal from society they do not make tangible products they only extort money from people. As for "the rich" who do you mean specifically? As I recall the so called rich employ the "poor and middle class" to make the products that are bought. The US was founded on personal liberty and the notion of being a slave to society is just as disgusting as any of the so called government abuses that go on today. The difference is that the redistribution of wealth factor has that nice little altruism going for it. If you could keep more of your taxes you could just pay for your own secondary education instead of having someone else pick up the tab. One way or another somebody pays for it, since there is no free money in the government. At best you are stealing the resources of those who have no interest in a higher education (higher education doesn't immediately mean a smarter populace, it just means a populace that can learn and be trained like a dog to do tasks). I know American news is heavily censored (not by gov, but the rich who all own the networks), but you can't be serious on these comments. Manufacturing jobs are all overseas, and now you guys are loosing jobs in the service sector.
Anyways, your 2nd paragraph makes me laugh. What's the minimum wage in the USA now? Like $4-8/Hr? Americans have mortgages they can't afford, credit card debts the can't pay , once inflation kicks in all those cheap Walmart goods will cost way more, and cost of basic living will increase.
I'm sure living off a meager household income of 40k - 80k (I assume that must be around the average) will allow for educational savings too. (especially when you have more than one child)
Anyways, the rich/gov depend on people like you to sit back while they steal from society, and once everything is gone and you guys are left holding the bag it's too late once you clue in to the true reality of things. (no jobs, debt and stuck in poverty stricken country in self imposed recession) |
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grandpinaple
join:2006-01-03
New York, NY
3 edits | Stop grouping all the rich into one category, it's just as full of fallacy as those you are criticizing. The rich you refer to are not the real rich, they are the thieves. You have yet to specify which people you are even talking about, some examples that aren't the usual Bush and Cheney bashing would be nice because last I checked that is a small group from one sector of the US economy.
While the US system may have its imperfections we at least still have some sliver of opportunity for social mobility, unlike the heavily socialized European countries (cough Germany). Where everyone is nannied into submission.
I like how you put minimum wage at $4-8 an hour. There is a big difference between 4 and 8. Nonetheless, the federal is $5.85, but it changes from state to state. This is a moot point anyway because anyone with basic knowledge of economics would know that minimum wage adjustment does nothing to help the poor as inflation will be one step ahead, because minimum wage causes inflation to begin with.
Oh and please cut the America is censored ad hominem bullshit. I haven't read a newspaper or watched network news in years. I watch the news for entertainment just like it is targeted to be (no not the violent stuff). Occasionally I read the newspaper, but it is incredibly easy to filter facts from opinions. My mind doesn't even register opinions anymore.
Americans have mortgages they can't afford because they were duped by the the lenders, but since the concept of personal responsibility is gone in this country we blame it on the big bad megacorps who are the ones now taking the hit anyway. Well not exactly they are getting bailed out, but don't you worry they'll be back again with pie in the sky deals and the American consumer will once again have his 15 seconds of fortune and then the cycle happens all over again! Everybody loses.
40-80k is not meager depending on where you are, especially if that sum is not taxable, which was my original point.
Don't get me wrong I don't support the present structure whole heartedly, but what you were advocating was putting a temporary solution by ostracizing the group that creates the jobs in the first place. |
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GreasedJesus
@net.br
| The basis of real social mobility is access to higher education regardless of income, not the largely illusory "American Dream" or whatever you're alluding to.
I don't believe the case with social mobility in Germany (and Britain too for that matter) is primarily because of taxes and government policy. I think it is mostly based in history and culture. The class distinction is much more mentally alive in those countries than compared to the USA, where the whole country (almost) was populated by immigrants and it didn't matter much if your last name started with "von". |
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