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 Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by TKJunkMail  :... you can get the info here: » www.visi.com/juan/congress/and then you don't have to use the pre-written EFF form opposed to immunity. I am going to contact members of the conference committee to support telco immunity. That's all and well.
But it doesn't sit right with me that people are snooping in on my phone calls or my Internet experience.
It is as if the post office were to open my envelopes and read my letters to family and friends.
Were is the privacy and when and were do you draw the lines.
The only way to have privacy seems to be to talk in your own house or in person.
I really have nothing to hide but feels weird people listing in on you or just the idea of it even if they don't pick me to watch.
I do understand the terrorist issue though and I agree that just like you would want protection from a burglar from the police I would want to be protected from Terrorists. Thank you.
It is a give and take as long as line are drawn and I am not being just peeped on for no reason just to invade my privacy.
I do understand the concerns on both sides.  | |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
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| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by Surfinusa :That's all and well. But it doesn't sit right with me that people are snooping in on my phone calls or my Internet experience. It is as if the post office were to open my envelopes and read my letters to family and friends. The immunity provision has NOTHING to do with the parts of the Bill that affect spying going forward. Your concerns about spying were addressed in the FISA bill. There will be oversight.
The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished.
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| | Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by TKJunkMail :said by Surfinusa :That's all and well. But it doesn't sit right with me that people are snooping in on my phone calls or my Internet experience. It is as if the post office were to open my envelopes and read my letters to family and friends. The immunity provision has NOTHING to do with the parts of the Bill that affect spying going forward. Your concerns about spying were addressed in the FISA bill. There will be oversight. The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished. As long as there is proper over site I am not really concerned. | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by Surfinusa :said by TKJunkMail :said by Surfinusa :That's all and well. But it doesn't sit right with me that people are snooping in on my phone calls or my Internet experience. It is as if the post office were to open my envelopes and read my letters to family and friends. The immunity provision has NOTHING to do with the parts of the Bill that affect spying going forward. Your concerns about spying were addressed in the FISA bill. There will be oversight. The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished. As long as there is proper over site I am not really concerned. What makes you think there's going to be oversight? There hasn't been any oversight up until now, and the democrat leadership has now decided that the illegal activities of both the telcos and the administration should be swept under the rug.
There isn't proper oversight in this bill. The provisions for "oversight" have no teeth. | |
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| | | | Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by JakCrow :What makes you think there's going to be oversight? There hasn't been any oversight up until now, and the democrat leadership has now decided that the illegal activities of both the telcos and the administration should be swept under the rug. There isn't proper oversight in this bill. The provisions for "oversight" have no teeth. To be honest I can't know for sure if there is any oversight even though they say there is.
So I am not going to worry about something at this point I have no control over. | |
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| | nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| said by TKJunkMail :... The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished. no, the immunity part is the Bush administration trying to prevent any accountability for illegally spying on U.S. citizens.
Since the 70s we have had a law called FISA that is quite clear about when the telcos can provide information to the government - when the government presents a valid court order or certification that the request to turn over information is legal. Nearly every legal expert that has voiced an opinion agrees with this.
If the govt complied with FISA and provided the proper authorization to the telcos, the telcos have nothing to worry about, they will win their legal cases.
If the govt did not comply with FISA and just asked the companies to cooperate "because George or Dick sez so", then the telcos clearly violated the law that was in effect at the time.
The fact that both Bush and the telcos are pushing so hard for immunity seems to pretty strongly imply they both broke the law and they both know it. | |
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odreian615
join:2006-01-18
Chicago, IL | Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... Don't forget they have up to 72 hours AFTER they start a wiretap to get a warrant | |
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| | | SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| said by nasadude :said by TKJunkMail :
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The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished.
no, the immunity part is the Bush administration trying to prevent any accountability for illegally spying on U.S. citizens. Since the 70s we have had a law called FISA that is quite clear about when the telcos can provide information to the government - when the government presents a valid court order or certification that the request to turn over information is legal. Nearly every legal expert that has voiced an opinion agrees with this. If the govt complied with FISA and provided the proper authorization to the telcos, the telcos have nothing to worry about, they will win their legal cases. If the govt did not comply with FISA and just asked the companies to cooperate "because George or Dick sez so", then the telcos clearly violated the law that was in effect at the time. The fact that both Bush and the telcos are pushing so hard for immunity seems to pretty strongly imply they both broke the law and they both know it. You just hit the nail directly on the head. They're pushing for immunity so hard because along with Commander Bunnypants and his entire misadministration, the telcos, did, in fact, break the law. | |
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firephoto
KDE
Premium
join:2003-03-18
 ·Verizon west (ex G..
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by morbo :said by TKJunkMail :The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely* followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. *merely = knowingly and willingly; complicit in breaking the law and deciding to follow the illegal request by the government therefore, they should be held accountable. Exactly, and the fact they were installing this black room equipment before 9.11.2001 throws the whole patriot argument out the window and is probably the only aspect of everything that they don't want seeing light in a court. As soon as this administration took office there was no limit to what would happen to better a select few. War is big money and we've been living in a country where money trumps the will of the people for some time now. | |
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| | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY | Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... Im sure this mass wiretapping has been done ever since it became technologically feasiable. | |
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| | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| You continue to overlook the fact that they violated our rights, REGARDLESS of who made the request because that is what you choose to do because you have a vested interest in the telcoms not being punished for breaking the law. You are as bad as they are, because you are willing to sell your rights for your portfolio. You know what they call a person that gives them self up for money?
There was oversight BEFORE they did this. It is called the judicial process that REQUIRED them to get a warrant BEFORE they started monitoring us. I don't care if Christ himself came down and asked for the monitoring, they were OBLIGATED by current law to get permission from an oversight authority established in the laws that existed the day they asked for it.
You continue to defend them because it is monetarily beneficial to you. However, I would say put your greed aside, sell your freaking stock and allow them to pay the price they SHOULD pay. Then rebuy their stock at a lower price so you don't look like such a corporate whore. | |
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cdru
Go Colts
Premium,MVM
join:2003-05-14
Fort Wayne, IN
2 edits | said by TKJunkMail :The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished. What the government did was illegal in requesting it in the first place and what the telecom did was equally illegal by giving it. If it wasn't, there wouldn't be a need to give them retroactive immunity. What the telecoms should have done was tell the government to go fly a kite made of their request until they get a judicial order...that is what the FISA court is for to begin with.
Tapping phones and internet connections have yet to produce one credible instance where doing so prevented any type of terrorist attack. It's too easy to simply encrypt the data to make the actual tap worthless from an intelligence purpose.
As far as oversight goes, that too will be a joke. There was suppose to be oversight from the begin of FISA and the whole "super secret court". Yet we still got in to the predicament we are in today thanks to oversight or lack thereof. | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
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1 edit | Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by cdru :If it wasn't [illegal], there wouldn't be a need to give them retroactive immunity. That sounds a lot like the "if you have nothing to hide, why do you refuse to be searched?" There are a lot of good reasons to try to protect yourself from a civil suit. Doing so doesn't mean "you obviously did something wrong."
To me, this kind of imbalanced viewpoint (which seems to pervade the anti-immunity crowd) is precisely a justification for the telcos to seek it.
Mark | |
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Karl Bode
News Guy
join:2000-03-02
Host:
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PC gaming GAMES
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| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... quote:
That sounds a lot like the "if you have nothing to hide, why do you refuse to be searched?" There are a lot of good reasons to try to protect yourself from a civil suit. Doing so doesn't mean "you obviously did something wrong.
Yes, those internal AT&T documents that show the company is funneling voice & data traffic from multiple carriers directly to the NSA without court authorization is purely hallucinatory in nature... | |
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| | | | ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| said by amigo_boy :said by cdru :If it wasn't [illegal], there wouldn't be a need to give them retroactive immunity. That sounds a lot like the "if you have nothing to hide, why do you refuse to be searched?" There are a lot of good reasons to try to protect yourself from a civil suit. Doing so doesn't mean "you obviously did something wrong." To me, this kind of imbalanced viewpoint (which seems to pervade the anti-immunity crowd) is precisely a justification for the telcos to seek it. Mark The telecom companies knowingly, and with reckless disregard for the civil rights of their customers, broke the law by assisting the Bush Administration in illegally wiretapping American citizens without even the flimsiest of excuses, and they should accept the fact that they were caught red-handed, and will have to face the consequences.
Every criminal wants to get away with their crime, and there is no blaming them for trying to do so. However, seeking immunity from prosecution and/or redress doesn't imply innocence, mistake or even plain negligence. They are prima facie guilty based on evidence already in hand, and further disclosures at trial may well broaden the charges against them and their accomplices. There is no way in hell that their feigned innocence is somehow enhanced by trying to obtain blanket immunity for their illegal transgressions before either side has had an opportunity to present their case in a court of law, be it civil or criminal. To suggest otherwise is not only imbalanced, but unbalanced (as in; deluded, nuts, deranged, and/or crazy). | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by ross :The telecom companies knowingly, and with reckless disregard for the civil rights of their customers, broke the law by assisting the Bush Administration The companies knowingly followed the Bush Administration which successfully lobbied to amend the laws to better accommodate the Administration's actions. How is that different than Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation (violating existing property laws, requiring the 13th amendment to make it legal)? Or, Roosevelt's ships-for-bases deal (violating the Neutrality Act, requiring the Lend-Lease act to make it legal)?
If it was so obvious and reckless and illegal, why no impeachment? Why no censure? Not even a non-binding resolution critical of the President? Why no criminal indictments against telco officers?
This is where self-styled freedom fighters claim the system is corrupt and isn't working (just because the outcome isn't what they wanted it to be). Therefore, they'll seek perverted justice in a *civil* court (to fight a perverted system, all the while claiming to be on the high road, saving us from perversion).
I do agree with you that telco customers should have the ability to sue if they can prove damages due to violation of the contract they entered into. But, like so many things, a few people have ruined it for everyone else. The issue has been co-opted by too many people with a political agenda, seeking to accomplish in civil court what they couldn't through normal channels. It's no longer about valid, contractual customers suing for damages. They're just mules used to carry the political payload of the self-styled freedom fighters.
It's unfortunate.
Mark | |
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| | | | | | ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by amigo_boy :The companies knowingly followed the Bush Administration which successfully lobbied to amend the laws to better accommodate the Administration's actions. How is that different than Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation (violating existing property laws, requiring the 13th amendment to make it legal)? Or, Roosevelt's ships-for-bases deal (violating the Neutrality Act, requiring the Lend-Lease act to make it legal)? If it was so obvious and reckless and illegal, why no impeachment? Why no censure? Not even a non-binding resolution critical of the President? Why no criminal indictments against telco officers? This is where self-styled freedom fighters claim the system is corrupt and isn't working (just because the outcome isn't what they wanted it to be). Therefore, they'll seek perverted justice in a *civil* court (to fight a perverted system, all the while claiming to be on the high road, saving us from perversion). I do agree with you that telco customers should have the ability to sue if they can prove damages due to violation of the contract they entered into. But, like so many things, a few people have ruined it for everyone else. The issue has been co-opted by too many people with a political agenda, seeking to accomplish in civil court what they couldn't through normal channels. It's no longer about valid, contractual customers suing for damages. They're just mules used to carry the political payload of the self-styled freedom fighters. It's unfortunate. Mark Once again, your opinion is hopelessly illogical and maladroit.
Your major points, once distilled, seem to be (and, not necessarily in this order) non-exculpatory;
1) When criminals take over they can remake the law to absolve themselves from culpability, indictment and prosecution for their wrong-doings. (As in the case at hand.)
2) Politicians are darn slippery, and other politicians have a hard time bringing them to justice because they can visualize a similar fate might await them. (Yes, they are weasels, who do not eat their own except under the most dire, or the most trivial, circumstance.)
3) You believe, even lacking any other practical means or venue, civil court is an unjustified, perverted, unjust, untrustworthy and too easily manipulated forum in which to obtain some measure of redress of grievance against the hapless criminal lackey's of the criminal, but untouchable power elite. (And, ewww, money damages are somehow so yuckey!)
4) Protecting one's civil rights by seeking money damages is somehow dependent on the quantity of the injured parties pursuing redress, or sullies the altruism of their motive, and is somehow, um, er, cowardly?. (The common citizen is really an ignoramus and a dupe.) | |
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| | Thaler
Premium
join:2004-02-02
Encino, CA
| said by TKJunkMail :The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished. Even if they knew that request was less-than-legal to follow through with at that time? | |
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| | ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| said by TKJunkMail :The immunity provision has NOTHING to do with the parts of the Bill that affect spying going forward. Your concerns about spying were addressed in the FISA bill. There will be oversight. The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished. If that is the case, why have an immunity provision in the first place?
Seems pretty clear to all, except the non-thinking, the Telecoms BROKE THE LAW! It doesn't matter if they were cajoled to do so by the Bush Administration, since the Bush Administration was clearly violating the law as well. Moreover, they were fully cognizant they were breaking the law, are unrepentant, and deserve to be made an example of lest anyone in the future consider aiding and abetting an illegal government program, no matter the circumstance. The telecoms had a legal, moral and fiduciary duty to protect their customers from illegal and unwarranted wiretapping ordered by the rogue Bush Administration acting outside their Constitutional and legal authority.
The redress of civil damages is as appropriate as prosecution of criminal charges for violating the rights of American citizens under the illegal clandestine programs initiated by the NSA et al at the behest of the President.
I say there should be no immunity for BUSH either. He and most of his staff/cabinet/administration should be brought up on charges, prosecuted, and sent to jail for a very long time. It will take decades to undo the harm Bush has brought upon us, our Constitution and our way of life. | |
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TKJunkMail
Enjoy the sun
Premium
join:2002-03-03
Avalon, NJ
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
·Comcast
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by ross :said by TKJunkMail :The immunity provision has NOTHING to do with the parts of the Bill that affect spying going forward. Your concerns about spying were addressed in the FISA bill. There will be oversight. The immunity part of the bill is all about punishing those who merely followed a government request to help catch terrorists in the making. For that they should be thanked, and not punished. If that is the case, why have an immunity provision in the first place? Very simple. To protect the telcos from being harassed by the left wing Bush haters who are taking it out on the telcos by proxy because they don't have a case or the stones to take on Bush directly. It is the governments way of saying thank you for putting the security of the US ahead of your own private interests.
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MysticGogeta
The Robot Devil
Premium
join:2005-03-14
League City, TX
clubs: | Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... The way of saying F U to citizens rights also. | |
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| jimbo2150
join:2004-05-10
Youngstown, OH
| I agree, this is ridiculous. The government can have all the terrorist fighting power they need with warrants. Meaning when they find something odd, they get a warrant so that only information on Joe Smo (and any contacts) is collected. This free-for-all, let the government get information on anyone without warrant or cause is a violation of privacy. I have already wrote my congressman and hope a stop is put on this. I say let Bush veto all the bills he wants. If he keeps vetoing all this bills it will look as though he is not willing to compromise (he isn't, never has), and will keep lowering his approval. This is why congresses ratings are so low, they keep giving in to a non-compromising president just to make it look as though they got something done. This needs to stop, they need to stand up to the poor policies of this president.
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supergirl
join:2007-03-20
Pensacola, FL
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| said by Surfinusa :said by TKJunkMail :... you can get the info here: » www.visi.com/juan/congress/and then you don't have to use the pre-written EFF form opposed to immunity. I am going to contact members of the conference committee to support telco immunity. That's all and well. But it doesn't sit right with me that people are snooping in on my phone calls or my Internet experience. Are you a terrorist? No.It is as if the post office were to open my envelopes and read my letters to family and friends. The Postal Inspector can already do that if they have any suspicions. The FBI can do it as well.Were is the privacy and when and were do you draw the lines. They are looking for terrorists not chatting with friends about the movies.The only way to have privacy seems to be to talk in your own house or in person. Actually, TV's built since 1995 have "remote viewing" so, yes, they can already see you. --sarcasm--I really have nothing to hide but feels weird people listing in on you or just the idea of it even if they don't pick me to watch. Do they need to watch you?I do understand the terrorist issue though and I agree that just like you would want protection from a burglar from the police I would want to be protected from Terrorists. Thank you. It is a give and take as long as line are drawn and I am not being just peeped on for no reason just to invade my privacy. Unless you are dealing with a terrorist organization, don't worry.I do understand the concerns on both sides.
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| | Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
1 edit | Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by supergirl :said by Surfinusa :said by TKJunkMail :... you can get the info here: » www.visi.com/juan/congress/and then you don't have to use the pre-written EFF form opposed to immunity. I am going to contact members of the conference committee to support telco immunity. That's all and well. But it doesn't sit right with me that people are snooping in on my phone calls or my Internet experience. Are you a terrorist? No.It is as if the post office were to open my envelopes and read my letters to family and friends. The Postal Inspector can already do that if they have any suspicions. The FBI can do it as well.Were is the privacy and when and were do you draw the lines. They are looking for terrorists not chatting with friends about the movies.The only way to have privacy seems to be to talk in your own house or in person. Actually, TV's built since 1995 have "remote viewing" so, yes, they can already see you. --sarcasm--I really have nothing to hide but feels weird people listing in on you or just the idea of it even if they don't pick me to watch. Do they need to watch you?I do understand the terrorist issue though and I agree that just like you would want protection from a burglar from the police I would want to be protected from Terrorists. Thank you. It is a give and take as long as line are drawn and I am not being just peeped on for no reason just to invade my privacy. Unless you are dealing with a terrorist organization, don't worry.I do understand the concerns on both sides.  Thanks for the reassurance.
EDIT: No really I am fine now .. I am fine (paranoya) J/k | |
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satellite68
join:2007-04-11
Louisville, KY | What's the sound of one hand clapping?
Congratulations, you've become your very own stereotype. | |
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| Surfinusa
Premium
join:2001-02-08
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by satellite68 :What's the sound of one hand clapping? Congratulations, you've become your very own stereotype. LOL Dude, that's wacked. | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by woody7 :why should the telcos who obviously broke laws be given a pass. Civil court isn't where you prosecute broken laws and criminal behavior. It's where groups with political agendas bleed someone dry with class action lawsuits just because they can't accomplish their goal through criminal and impeachment courts.
Don't you find it odd that DSL Reports couches its article as "if you support things like due process..." when a rational person would say that using civil court to accomplish what can't be accomplished through criminal/impeachment court is essentially circumventing due process?
That's the problem I have with all this. I'd be perfectly happy if telco customers and investors (with a contractual relationship) sued telcos if they could prove damages. But, this is just a bunch of unrelated parties (with an agenda) using customers and investors to pursue "broken laws" instead of actual damages. To me, that's as much of an abuse of the system as the President and telcos are accused of.
Mark | |
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·Cox HSI
·magicjack.com
| said by TKJunkMail :... you can get the info here: » www.visi.com/juan/congress/and then you don't have to use the pre-written EFF form opposed to immunity. Thanks for posting that. It's nice to see some *balance* on DSL Reports.
Mark | |
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| ross
join:2000-08-16
·Digizip
| Re: If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress.... said by amigo_boy :Thanks for posting that. It's nice to see some *balance* on DSL Reports. Mark What? WTF would you know about balance? | |
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JakCrow
join:2001-12-06
Palo Alto, CA | If this administration wasn't republican, the fake conservatives would have demanded heads to roll over this and just about everything else that Bush and friends have done since they got in. | |
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If you don't agree with EFF and want to contact Congress....
