Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
|  why are ATSC (DTV) Tuners so Expensive?
we are less than a year away from having our Analog VHF Signal turned off in favor of a Digital UHF over the air HDTV/DTV and I'm amazed how expensive and poorly prepared this country is with the turnover. I write this as a fellow with reasonably good Analog A/V equipment that I think would be wasteful to replace, but I would still like to get over the air broadcasts after Feb'09.
I shopped around for a better HDTV/UHF Antenna, and they seem reasonably priced in the $40-$80 range. But when I shop around for an ATSC tuner, all the ones under $100 are to link up to newer PC's, while stand alone tuners with or without DVD/VCR Combo's are closer to $200. So where are all the stand alone $50 cost tuner's the government's $40 rebate was supposed to offset? Are we supposed to wait till Xmas'08 and buy this thing three Months before the Analog shutdown at some Black Friday Thanksgiving sale?
If an ATSC Tuner can be printed on to a circuit board the size of a USB Stick, then why the hell are they still so expensive? North America going to need over 100 Million of them by next year (Canada goes ATSC in 2011), so the production and licensing costs can't be more than a few dollars a pop. Are they just screwing the "early adopters", which would be ridiculous since we will ALL have to do this by next year. I mean, this isn't like splurging on an iPhone you don't really need.
I'm amazed how expensive and ill prepared the US Market is, considering the Europeans and Asian have already made the DTV switch over years ago! So where are all the cheap stand along ATSC Tuners? Why the hell should I pay $200 for a Tuner/VCR/DVD, when I already have a perfectly good TV, VCR, and DVD Player? And I can't afford $70/mo(service/taxes/fees/box/install) for Cable DTV in my area, so I'm stuck with using free over the air service.
It scares me to think how many people will or are about to replace all their perfectly good VCR/DVD/TV simply for the convenience of their build in ATSC tuner. Our landfills are going to be bursting with A/V equipment next year, many of which contain metals and toxins that may ruin our water tables for decades to come, yet in anticipation of this, there is no trade-in or proper disposal program in place. I walk around my neighborhood on Sunday nights when they put out the garbage for Monday morning collections, and see piles of A/V equipment every week. This is madness!
OK, Thanks... I just had to Vent  |
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fuziwuzi
Not born yesterday
Premium
join:2005-07-01
Atlanta, GA
| Just checking on a few websites like Best Buy and Circuit City, I see the coupon-acceptable tuners priced at $59.99. Likely when the coupons become available they will go on "sale" at a lower price, maybe even equal to the $40 coupon or close to it. Note that you can't use the coupons online, you must use them in person at the store.
These tuners are very basic, they do have a remote control, have an RF input and RF/Composite output. |
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ahhnold
join:2003-12-04
Orland Park, IL
| reply to Packeteers
said by Packeteers  :If an ATSC Tuner can be printed on to a circuit board the size of a USB Stick, then why the hell are they still so expensive? There is very little correlation between the cost of a component in a product and its price in the market.
TV industry is not going to bankroll any developers of converter boxes since they want to churn the market over to new digital sets. That leaves smaller enterprises to build these converters who don't have the economies of scale and distribution channels of the big guys which leads to higher costs. The other consideration is the converters are a blip in time so two years from now there will be almost no market for them. No incentive other than opportunists to jump into this space. I expect the prices of these boxes to remain about the same or drop a just a bit if volumes increase. |
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Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
4 edits | reply to fuziwuzi
I noticed those $60 ATSC tuners with composit outputs do include a basic remote control. so if I wait to get my $40 government coupon, my net cost will be $20 plus tax? or is it a $100 tuner and that $60 price is with the $40 already considered off? I'm also hoping for 2 more features on such a basic coupon eligible unit;
1. some sort of on screen ATSC signal meter so I can tell how strong a channel is coming into my UHF Antenna, and whether I should adjust my Antenna placement to achieve better reception.
2. a Composite out and a SVHS output, not just the one.
I noticed HDTV Tuner cost jumps $100 above this $60 level. If you buy a $160 HDTV Tuner, they won't let you use your $40 coupon against it? seems silly, since the only reason I'm buying anything is because over the air Analog is being discontinued.
engadget.com: Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Kmart, RadioShack, Target, Sears and Sam's Club are all on the list to carry equipment necessary for analog TV owners to receive OTA programming after February 2009, and just in case one of the aforementioned giants aren't anywhere near you, around 100 more smaller retailers have been certified to stock 'em. Also of note, you can start the new year off right by reminding your great grandparents (or other family members, too) that they can go on and apply for up to two coupons -- which should arrive around six weeks later -- worth $40 apiece to purchase the required boxes. |
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tbone2006
join:2006-07-22
Abilene, TX
1 edit | reply to Packeteers
Walmart.com shows a Magnavox digital tuner for $49.87 you use your $40 coupon and it is under $10. Although you can't order it online.
»www.walmart.com/catalog/product.···/catalog.... |
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Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
2 edits | I think I'll wait till my $40 coupon shows up next Month, then run to Circuit City and buy the Zenith DTT900 for $60(-$40). For the $10 more I get the impression it's a better quality item than the Magnavox, Thomson/RCA, or Insignia models that are sold by others.
If someone can answer this question here, it will save me the trouble of making a new thread;
will these $60 DTV to Composite output over air UHF receiver boxes allow me to tune into channels X.1 and X.2, such as 4.0 (main channel) 4.1 (aux1) 4.2 (aux2) for additional programming, or must I get a more expensive H-DTV receiver box to do so? |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to tbone2006
wal-mart actually has 2 for that price
»www.walmart.com/catalog/product.···=8343230 |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to Packeteers
said by Packeteers :will these $60 DTV to Composite output over air UHF receiver boxes allow me to tune into channels X.1 and X.2, such as 4.0 (main channel) 4.1 (aux1) 4.2 (aux2) for additional programming, or must I get a more expensive H-DTV receiver box to do so? according to the wal-mart website the $50 RCA one will
"Display all multicast channels" |
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Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
3 edits | so "multicast" is the word they use...
hmmm, I wonder which ones have a
XX.X LED display so you can see
what your box is tuning to.
I was reading on another thread that
these channels are mostly UHF, but
they will be moved back to VHF later.
How can this be? will we have to get
yet another tuner box when that occurs?
the more I learn about this, the more
confused I get... *sigh*
»tech question
How do these boxes indicate signal strength
so you know you need to adjust your Antenna? |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL | Everything will be OSD (On Screen Display). |
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Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
| I hope you can check signal strength on screen by channel because in my area there are at least 3 Major towers broadcasting within a 15° arc from each other, so I'm going to get one of those antennas with 4 separate bays, and bend each one slightly to get best reception from all 3 towers. |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| reply to Packeteers
said by Packeteers :I was reading on another thread that these channels are mostly UHF, but they will be moved back to VHF later. How can this be? will we have to get yet another tuner box when that occurs? the more I learn about this, the more confused I get... *sigh* Um they can't use the VHF channel because it's being used for the analog signal. I assume after Feb 17 2009 is when they'll move them back
All channel Tuner 2- 69
Displays all DTV formats
Answer you question?
How do these boxes indicate signal strength
so you know you need to adjust your Antenna?
You either get the channel or not. It's not like analog where you might get in a snowflakey picture. There's no sort of getting in a picture. |
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Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
| BF69, I've been reading on www.highdefforum.com
the lower VHF 2-6 will be moved to UHF and not
broadcast DTV down there, while upper VHF like
7-13 will continue to have DTV broadcast there.
so getting a UHF only antenna 14-69 would be a
mistake for my area, as I have important signal
on channel 7abc, 9upn, 11wb, and 13pbs.
as for these cheap $60 boxes not displaying the
signal strength by channel, that is regrettable.
I live close to the broadcast towers in a nest
of buildings, so I have a lot of multipath problems
that may require I use a Directional antenna/rotor.
is such a signal meter feature available on the more
expensive no-coupon $150 H-DTV over the air tuners? |
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BF69
join:2004-07-28
Camden, TN
| said by Packeteers :BF69, I've been reading on www.highdefforum.com the lower VHF 2-6 will be moved to UHF and not broadcast DTV down there, while upper VHF like 7-13 will continue to have DTV broadcast there. so getting a UHF only antenna 14-69 would be a mistake for my area, as I have important signal on channel 7abc, 9upn, 11wb, and 13pbs. as for these cheap $60 boxes not displaying the signal strength by channel, that is regrettable. I live close to the broadcast towers in a nest of buildings, so I have a lot of multipath problems that may require I use a Directional antenna/rotor. is such a signal meter feature available on the more expensive no-coupon $150 H-DTV over the air tuners? Who says you have to get UHF atenna only? if you live close to broadcast towers you won't have any issues. I think you're worrying about nothing. Hell if you want you can get "rabbit ears" that have directional rotors on them.
My suggestion is get your coupons. Get a cheap box since the coupons don't apply to those $150 boxes. If it doesn't work the most you spent is $10. Also go to Best Buy or something and ASK someone your questions. I wouldn't suggest wal-mart since the workers are likely to be clueless. |
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Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
4 edits | I found a review of the Zenith DTT900 I prefer;
»www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost···ount=258
it turns out it has some antenna signal metering feedback,
so this model will be more helpful at aiming the directional
antenna I'll be forced to buy due to all the multipath
interference my area is subject to.
this does not mean the;
Insignia NS-DXA1 at Best Buy
Magnavox TB100MW9 at Walmart
Philco TB100HH9 at Amazon.com
RCA DTA800 at Walmart
lack this signal meter feature,
simply that I have been unable
to confirm it as of yet.
WOW, avsforum is a goldmine!
»octopus.freeyellow.com/CECB_Spread.jpg
recently updated, this listing
does NOT isolate the signal meter
feature. "smart antenna" means;
an additional (EIA/CEA-909) connector on the box that connects back to
the TV antenna and tells it informaiton about what channel it is tuned to.
The smart antenna adjusts itself for the best reception of that channel.
»www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre···t=980052
I'll have to read further into the thread to find
more about metering, but it's a goldmine for anyone
like me wanting the best coupon eligible tuner.
more good news on the Zenith DTT900;
some claim it's LG DT111D chipset is
best at processing multipath signals.
later discussion reveals that most of
the latest generation tuner boxes do
a better job with multipath signals.
many of the boxes are 6th generation,
since many other European and Asian
countries already switched to air DTV.
good news; the
Insignia NS-DXA1
does have an onscreen
signal meter, and is a
"re-branded" Zenith DTT900
so these boxes do not simply
say good/bad, rather they have
a graphic signal bar between them.
»www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost···tcount=3 |
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ke4pym
join:2004-07-24
Charlotte, NC
 ·Verizon BroadbandA..
 ·Packet8
 ·RoadRunner Cable
| reply to ahhnold
Re: why are ATSC (DTV) Tuners so Expensive?
said by ahhnold :TV industry is not going to bankroll any developers of converter boxes since they want to churn the market over to new digital sets. Minor point of order ... the TV industry isn't pushing this "digital churn".
You can thank our government for it. And while you're thanking them, ask them how many billions they're getting in the auction (which is currently active) to sell the soon-to-be-unused spectrum and what they'll do with those billions.
Broadcasters are fighting tooth and nail about the digital conversion. You don't just flip the switch. And, at this point, many stations will be left with less-than-full power facilities come this time next year. Much work is left to be done to get broadcast facilities upgraded to digital. And there are only so many tower crews to get the work done and they can only work at certain times.
Another interesting battle that is lining up is along the southern border with Mexico (who's stations broadcast into our country with analog signals). Watch for stations north of the border to continue their analog signal if Mexican stations try to grab the audiences who don't have digital receive capabilities.
Packeteers - the 5th gen LG chip is amazing. I bought a AutumnWave OnAir GT USB tuner (that uses said LG chip) and that thing does a fantastic job with a little antenna attached to it.
I would suggest taking this one step at a time to avoid unnecessary purchases. For the most part, stations are required by the FCC to replicate their analog coverage with their new digital signals. Get yourself a tuner. Your current outdoor antenna, if it has decent UHF capabilities will be more than sufficent for your new digital tuner. |
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Packeteers
Premium
join:2005-06-18
Forest Hills, NY
| said by ahhnold :the 5th gen LG chip is amazing. I bought a AutumnWave OnAir GT USB tuner (that uses said LG chip) and that thing does a fantastic job with a little antenna attached to it. Get yourself a tuner. Your current outdoor antenna, if it has decent UHF capabilities will be more than sufficent for your new digital tuner. That's good advice. I plan on trying the converter first before investing in a new antenna.* after reading a few thousand posts on avforums, I've concluded that most current 2008 generation tuner chips are remarkably better at tuning into Multipath - LG just gets more credit for being in available boxes now sold by BestBuy CircuitCity and RadioShack.
* I may still get the smartantenna combo because I want to change my antenna to something with a low foot print. my old 9' mast catches too much wind and has to be repositioned annually. so getting something small, that is designed to actually take advantage of Multipath, and has the potential to pick up weaker stations from other directions is worth the $80 experiment to me. and even if it does not help; this approach being so new and relevant, I can easily get most of my money back reselling it on ebaY. |
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OTA DTV fan
@swbell.net
| reply to Packeteers
Packeteers asked about tuning alternate channels such as 4.2 on DTV converter boxes. I saw a Magnavox unit today at my local Walmart and it could tune those channels. But the most intriguing thing I saw was the fact that an RCA DTV converter had a smart antenna interface. I have yet to figure out if anyone is mass-marketing smart antennas right now. Has anyone seen such a beast for sale? |
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Greg_Z
Premium
join:2001-08-08
Springfield, IL
·Comcast
1 edit | What you are talking about is PSIP mapping. If the PSIP is malformed, or a CATV provider screws it up, the Tuner will not know how to read the Data. The 4.2 is a sub channel of Channel 4 from OTA. If the Broadcaster wanted to, they could have 4.2 read on the actual broadcast channel (ie 17, if owned by same, and broadcast regular progamming say on 10). |
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