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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
 ·Comcast
·Patriot Media
| Another Minority tech Just like Iden, Nextel Sprint is burying itself in proprietary technologies. When manufactures have a choice between LTE which serves all the USA thru Verizon ATT, Tmobile Or WiMax which serves Sprint users. Which are they going to choose. Sprint get with the program, and join the rest of the world. | |
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Matt
Take me down to the paradise city
Premium
join:2003-07-20
Jamestown, NC
 ·North State Commun..
| Re: Another Minority tech said by DaveNJ  :Just like Iden, Nextel Sprint is burying itself in proprietary technologies. When manufactures have a choice between LTE which serves all the USA thru Verizon ATT, Tmobile Or WiMax which serves Sprint users. Which are they going to choose. Sprint get with the program, and join the rest of the world. This is actually a good thing for consumers. Do you really want to be subject to a single network no matter if you use AT&T or Verizon? I sure don't, because a single problem could affect everyone.
I think this is a good move for Sprint, especially since Intel will include a WiMAX chipset in any Centrino branded laptop. Imagine turning on your laptop and "Hey, there's a wireless network available ..."
Sprint's customer service may blow chunks, but they are VERY good at engineering and running a network. | |
| | xenophon
join:2007-09-17
 ·Sprint Mobile Broa..
4 edits | Re: Another Minority tech Sprint's customer service may blow chunks, but they are VERY good at engineering and running a network.
They do seem to have the better 3G network in the US. And the Xohm group will have it's own customer service and billing group. But they may end up spinning off from Sprint anyway.
And while LTE may end up having the larger network globally in the end, WiMAX will still be rolled out in most countries anyway. India plans to hit 200m pops with WiMAX. Korea and Japan are headed to major deployments. Europe is working on allocating spectrum for WiMAX. LTE won't be available for 3 years. WiMAX is just about here.
Saying both can't co-exist is like saying cable and DSL cannot. And WiMAX/LTE business plans have much greater difference from each other than cable/DSL. | |
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DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Comcast
·Patriot Media
| said by Matt :said by DaveNJ :Just like Iden, Nextel Sprint is burying itself in proprietary technologies. When manufactures have a choice between LTE which serves all the USA thru Verizon ATT, Tmobile Or WiMax which serves Sprint users. Which are they going to choose. Sprint get with the program, and join the rest of the world. This is actually a good thing for consumers. Do you really want to be subject to a single network no matter if you use AT&T or Verizon? I sure don't, because a single problem could affect everyone. I think this is a good move for Sprint, especially since Intel will include a WiMAX chipset in any Centrino branded laptop. Imagine turning on your laptop and "Hey, there's a wireless network available ..." Sprint's customer service may blow chunks, but they are VERY good at engineering and running a network. You got my point but in reverse. Sprint a single Wimax carrier. Big 3. ATT Tmobile, Verizon. So you have a choice of 3 LTE carriers, or 1 WiMax. Why would i buy a laptop, which i could subscribe to a single carrier? If you have a cdma cell phone, you in the exact situation you describe.. | |
| xenophon
join:2007-09-17 | LTE is more proprietary than WiMAX. LTE is about carrier control. WiMAX is more open and has a much better chance getting into consumer devices than LTE.
LTE will become a closed form of telcom communism. WiMAX is for the people. | |
| |
DaveNJ
No Fear
join:1999-09-01
New Jersey
·Comcast
·Patriot Media
| Re: Another Minority tech said by xenophon :LTE is more proprietary than WiMAX. LTE is about carrier control. WiMAX is more open and has a much better chance getting into consumer devices than LTE. LTE will become a closed form of telcom communism. WiMAX is for the people. This is completely false. LTE and WiMax are transport methods. CDMA, GSM etc can all be open, its just the carriers choose to enforce carrier locks. Wimax is just a transport method, its no more locked, or unlocked then any other method. | |
| | | xenophon
join:2007-09-17 | Re: Another Minority tech I'm talking more about the business model, not the technology. The technologies are both essentially OFDM. The carrier controlled business model of LTE is not as open as the WiMAX business model. | |
| | | | 
en102
Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | Re: Another Minority tech Definately. The most locked today is the CDMA business model, followed by GSM and iDEN
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Canada = Hollywood North | |
| | | | | | | | | xenophon
join:2007-09-17
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Another Minority tech I'll be more specific next time... the way WiMAX is being deployed is more open with less ability for carrier control. LTE will continue to be carrier controlled.
You can argue the semantics but the bottom line is that the WiMAX ecosystem is designed to be put onto any consumer device with no involvement of carriers, like WiFi. LTE is not heading down that path and will still likely have carriers in control.
I could see WiMAX on generic MP3 players, gps devices, PSP/gameboy, etc. The makers don't have to deal with the carriers. I don't see LTE on such devices (broadly) long term. | |
| | | | | | 
Quemann
@comcast.net
| Re: Another Minority tech Personally, I am with WiMAX in terms of its openness, interoperability and other potentials. LTE is yet to be born and will be commercially available around 2015. On the other hand, WiMAX has got a big success in South Korea and was incorporatted into ITU standard last year. The future of LTE is uncertain now becasue it is yet to be born. What a silly idea that ATT&T and Verizon boast of unborn babies.
WiMAX or LTE, mobile carriers are to gradually lose their market muscle since convergence of telecom, media, entertainment and advertising industries into mobile multimedia is dynamically under way. Besides, Nokia's upstream initiative, based on GPS, mobile gaming and multimedia networking advantages, will choke mobie carriers'
product portfolio strategy. Google's OHA alliance and other mobile platforms will significantly weaken carriers' gatekeeper status. Technology affilication may set the future of corporate giants. AT&T and Verizon have got plenty of time until they may start deploying 4G networks and may switch from LTE to a newer 4G or whatsoever later on. And even SK Telecom, one of the two commercially successful WiMAX carriers, has already advanced into US territory in the name of Helio, waiting until a tipping point pops up. Rumors are Intel will pump $2 billion into the Sprint/Clearwire deal, but late last year SK Telecom offered a $5 billion investment to Sprint. It remains to be seen whether telecom oligarchy will last nd until when. | |
| | EPS
join:2008-02-13
Hingham, MA | This has to be the greatest misuse of the word "communism" ever made. | |
| | | xenophon
join:2007-09-17 | Re: Another Minority tech Hehe.. I got carried away.  | |
| 
Lumberjack
Premium
join:2003-01-18
Newport News, VA
| And don't think that the same tech will allow a device to roam between them. SIM provides that now with many carriers but phones can still be locked and who know what the next gen phones will do in terms of locking (maybe perm like current sprint/verizon cdma phones).
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»www.fairtax.org | |
| | xenophon
join:2007-09-17
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Another Minority tech WiMAX is about IEEE specs, not carrier lockdowns. Like WiFi, a consumer electronics maker just needs to drop in a WiMAX-compliant chipset. No need to involve the carrier in the development cycle or testing just as you don't see them dealing with WiFi providers. We'll be able to see WiMAX in any kind of device that could benefit from being on the Net. This simply won't happen with LTE. | |
| | |
Luker3
@vt.edu
| Re: Another Minority tech Exactly, the idea behind WiMAX is the same as Wi-Fi, you aren't lock to a single service, you go to a hotspot and it is either free or you have to buy service at the counter. With WiMAX you could just login and be connected at much farther distances.
And I thought it was going to be set up so that if you have WiMAX service you could roam into Wi-Fi service area and get the faster Wi-Fi. | |
| | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Another Minority tech said by Luker3 :
Exactly, the idea behind WiMAX is the same as Wi-Fi, you aren't lock to a single service, you go to a hotspot and it is either free or you have to buy service at the counter. With WiMAX you could just login and be connected at much farther distances.
And I thought it was going to be set up so that if you have WiMAX service you could roam into Wi-Fi service area and get the faster Wi-Fi.
And why is this being deployed by an existing cellphone company? Why does WIMAX require frequency licenses from the govt? Why is Wimax a national network? Why is there a monthly fee? Why isn't it free?
Keep drinking your Koolaid. Wimax is just a cellphone network standard like any other, except it will be force bundled with Intel laptops, and not initially carrier locked. | |
| | | | | xenophon
join:2007-09-17
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
| Re: Another Minority tech Actually WiMAX is planned for unlicensed spectrum too but it will show up in licensed first. In the US, Sprint and Clearwire own the bulk of 2.5Ghz spectrum but there are other smaller players already deploying in that range in Madison, MO, TX and other smaller areas. But WiMAX is also targeted at other spectrums. WiMAX also has profiles for 2.3 and 3.5Ghz. 700mhz may be added. And then unlicensed may eventually come.
Sprint/Clearwire don't control WiMAX in the US, they just control 2.5Ghz spectrum in some markets. WiMAX isn't just about 2.5Ghz so isn't just about Sprint/Clearwire.
There will likely be other WiMAX providers in the US down the road even if the major carriers don't go for it.
The challenge will be to get WiMAX chipsets that support all possible spectrums. | |
| | | | | | patcat88
join:2002-04-05
Jamaica, NY
| Re: Another Minority tech said by xenophon :The challenge will be to get WiMAX chipsets that support all possible spectrums. If Intel's first Wimax laptops don't have support for unlicensed spectrum, you can kiss this being a free standard good bye. There will be no installed base of unlicensed spectrum client adapters. Something tells me Intel won't add unlicensed support until a couple revisions, and by then, the existing base of adapters out there will kill any chance unlicensed has. I am very very very worried about what frequencies Intel's chips will support. Since the determines what happens with Wimax market wise. If it only does 2.5ghz, you can be sure Wimax will become a synonym for Sprint like EVDO is for Sprint and Verizon (I don't trust Clearwire in going semi-national). Strategic business decisions already have laptops coming with EVDO and HSDPA cards locked to carriers inside them. Each card that goes out with a laptop, will be highly likely to be activated by Joe Six Pack out of convenience if he decides to get a mobile broadband service.
Sure one day Wimax maybe used by small indie WISPs on unlicensed spectrum, but that will be non-Intel chipsets, and might as well be declared proprietary equipment (and it basically is), since a consumer will have to purchase it, and it might be difficult/impossible to find another provider for 10s/100s of miles that uses the same frequency band. And due to low volumes of unlicensed spectrum Wimax equipment, vendors are going to come out with proprietary "high speed modes" like wifi does today. Indie WISPs will require you buy a card that supports the mode so they can get more data over the same channels/their tower, and nobody will complain either, since its a special purchase anyways like any non-wifi fixed wireless product today.
Obviously Best Buy won't carry these special frequency/non-Intel wimax cards, and thats the market deathknell. Remember, businessmen control all technology rollouts, not geeks. So regardless of what the geeks that made the standard, say, want, try to force, it will be the CEOs who sign off on exactly what to do. Lots of/many features in standards that would be really nice, never get implemented, like SIM cards (called R-UIM) for CDMA (Verizon/Sprint/Alltel) phones. Its no technical reason, all CDMA providers outside North America use those cards, its a business reason why no North America provider uses them.
Time will tell what happens, I've tried to Google up what frequencies Intel will support, but since "use anywhere" Wimax is still vapor ware, I wasn't able to find anything. Pretty pathetic for a standard is supposed to come out 2 years ago, last, this, next year? Googling just now says »download.intel.com/network/conne···2250.pdf
quote:
When combined with the Intel® WiMAX Multi-Band Radio or thirdparty
RFICs, the Intel WiMAX Connection 2250 enables manufacturers
to create a broad range of WiMAX modems and residential
gateways.
Yep, we are going to run into a frequency war, and laptops are going to come with the frequency of the carrier who subsidized/co-branded the Wimax chip. Google doesn't say anything about this radio.
quote:
21. What frequencies will WiMAX technology operate on?
The WiMAX Forum operates in 2.3 – 2.7, 3.4- 6 and 5.8 GHz bands. The WiMAX Forum is working with operators and equipment manufacturers to expand the frequency allocation to cover all the key spectrum bands that our member companies identify as interesting to potential WiMAX service providers such as 700 MHz. For mobile applications, initial profiles have been developed for 2.3, 2.5, and 3.5 GHz. These are to address the current market demands. The WiMAX Forum has the ability to respond rapidly to development of additional profiles as additional spectrum is auctioned or markets change.
»www.wimaxforum.org/technology/faq/
Ok, thats it. My guesses are fact. 5.8 ghz is crap. Try wifi on it. Barly goes through anything, and I don't see why Wimax would be allowed higher transmit power than wifi. And since Intel isn't saying was frequencies, I can guess the Wimax Forum will be the defining body, since IEEE doesn't comment on frequency I belive. Unlicensed Wimax won't exist except as a intra-home WLAN standard competitor to wifi. | |
| | | | | | | xenophon
join:2007-09-17
·Sprint Mobile Broa..
1 edit | Re: Another Minority tech Those are good points and it's possible that Intel could pull a power play and only support 2.5Ghz, which would favor Sprint/Clearwire and cut out many other players in same markets. But if someone wants to do WiMAX in 700mhz or other spectrum, Intel would be foolish to limit themselves to just 2.5Ghz. I don't see them limiting themselves.
Intel also needs global support and 2.5Ghz isn't the only spectrum in play globally.
So there's a chance some power playing will go on. That's common in all areas of the telcom industry. But there will still be opportunities for more WiMAX players in same markets and competition beyond Sprint/Clearwire in the US. Those two are just simply first in US.
Unlicensed spectrum could turn out to be niche like you said. It has interference issues with other devices, which they are still working on, so may have to be limited to smaller range.
So while you could say that licensed spectrum isn't as open as unlicensed, the WiMAX ecosystem targeting consumer products is clearly more open than the traditional telcom product controls. | |
| | | | | jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
 ·ViaTalk
| said by patcat88 :Keep drinking your Koolaid. Wimax is just a cellphone network standard like any other, except it will be force bundled with Intel laptops, and not initially carrier locked. Actually....
WiMAX was ORIGINALLY designed as a broadband internet access standard. As subscriber 'telephone' devices started to morph into do-all, end-all, bell and whistle boxes, they became more like access modems with telephone call (VoIP ?) like features.
Nextel was desperately behind in 3G+ capability and, with the addition of Sprint, decided to try and end-run the competition by pledging to deploy a broadband access network instead of "just another cell system" (JACS ?? ) The result was that big dollars bought out the original implementers of WiMAX (anybody remember a company called NextNet ?) and the competitors stepped in with UMTS & LTE because they too saw the writing on the wall. Now, WiMAX is in danger of being hijacked for what you called 'just a cellphone network standard'.
You don't happen to work for someone deploying UMTS or LTE, do you ? I, for one, hope WiMAX retains a lot of it's broadband access feel - I have need for rural high speed access - the original plan for the standard.
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
"Peace through superior firepower" | |
| jay_rm
join:2002-04-12
Netville
·Fox Valley Internet
·ViaTalk
| said by DaveNJ :Just like Iden, Nextel Sprint is burying itself in proprietary technologies. Since when is WiMAX a 'proprietary technology' of Sprint ???
It's a world-wide open standard of the IEEE.
--
3500/512 5.7 GHz Motorola Canopy Wireless; FoxValley.net
"Peace through superior firepower" | |
| 
tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
1 edit | said by DaveNJ :Just like Iden, Nextel Sprint is burying itself in proprietary technologies. When manufactures have a choice between LTE which serves all the USA thru Verizon ATT, Tmobile Or WiMax which serves Sprint users. Which are they going to choose. Sprint get with the program, and join the rest of the world. Maybe you been spending too much time on DSLR but WiMAX seems to be all over the place (spotty at best) but at least it's already out there. LTE is where? On someones sticky note in VZ's corp office. Wimax has more uses and not just making phone calls. LTE will be deployed just like ALL VZ's services, tower by tower, town by town. So, in about 2 years, maybe 80% of it's market will be able to use it. AT&T, heck, who cares? They are just now bumping up to what some of us call 3G.
And why would you buy a laptop that's locked to one carrier? Think the control freeks at VZ are going to allow AT&T types to "roam" for free? Dang dude.. puff puff pass..  | |
| DarnellP
join:2004-10-12
Las Vegas, NV
| said by DaveNJ : When manufactures have a choice between LTE which serves all the USA thru Verizon ATT, Tmobile Or WiMax which serves Sprint users. Just curious, why mention T-Mobile in a discussion about 4G technologies when they don't even have a 3G network in place and have made no announcements (that I'm aware of) regarding 4G? | |
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tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
| Re: Another Minority tech said by DarnellP :said by DaveNJ : When manufactures have a choice between LTE which serves all the USA thru Verizon ATT, Tmobile Or WiMax which serves Sprint users. Just curious, why mention T-Mobile in a discussion about 4G technologies when they don't even have a 3G network in place and have made no announcements (that I'm aware of) regarding 4G? Some people are "wishful thinking"..  | |
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