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FP's from AVG8 scan. (solved) »
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Killer Max

@rr.com

reply to amungus
Re: Disk encryption may not be secure enough

said by amungus See Profile :

I'm curious about one thing... why wouldn't Vista's "address space randomization" (whatever it's called...) do any good here? Should that not make it more difficult to find the keys? Could there be any way to sufficiently randomize it such that an analyst couldn't tell which pieces to put back together? Granted, that'd probably take some serious work, but it seems like it might be one way of making things more difficult...
Relax, it does.

Executives of Microsoft said BitLocker has a range of protection options that they referred to as “good, better and best.” ....
...The Princeton researchers acknowledged that in these advanced modes, BitLocker encrypted data could not be accessed using the vulnerability they discovered.
»www.nytimes.com/2008/02/22/techn···business


jig

join:2001-01-05
Hacienda Heights, CA
ya know, they say that, but my guess is that they haven't tried yet.


jansson_mark
Markus Jansson
Premium
join:2001-08-05
Finland

reply to Killer Max
said by Killer Max :

Executives of Microsoft said BitLocker has a range of protection options that they referred to as “good, better and best.” ....
...The Princeton researchers acknowledged that in these advanced modes, BitLocker encrypted data could not be accessed using the vulnerability they discovered.
You completely misquoted them, perhaps on purpose? The original sayes:
"That might include either a special U.S.B. hardware key, or a secure identification card that generates an additional key string. The Princeton researchers acknowledged that in these advanced modes, BitLocker encrypted data could not be accessed using the vulnerability they discovered."

Without additional USB-plugged encryption devices and or smart cards, the Bitlocker IS vulnerable, as the example video clearly showed.
--
My computer security & privacy related homepage »www.markusjansson.net
Use HushTools or GnuPG/PGP to encrypt any email before sending it to me to protect our privacy.

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon FIOS

reply to SUMware
This is excellent news. When I were a lad, you used to be able to power-off a computer, leave it for a day, power it up again, and continue running, since the core memory would have retained its content without power applied. Maybe those halcyon days will return!


HA Nut
Premium
join:2004-05-13
USA

reply to jansson_mark
said by jansson_mark See Profile :

Easiest way to clear and wipe RAM is to reboot and let BIOS do the "Power-On Self Test" (POST). It will read/write whole RAM three times. End of game.
To make sure a daft person like me understands... if a user cold boots, allows the PC to go through the normal BIOS POST test, and then does a shutdown without entering any passwords, would the RAM be flushed of any clues? I assume a re-boot would NOT be good enough, since the POST is not necessarily ran?

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
·Verizon Online DSL
·Verizon FIOS

said by HA Nut See Profile :

To make sure a daft person like me understands... if a user cold boots, allows the PC to go through the normal BIOS POST test, and then does a shutdown without entering any passwords, would the RAM be flushed of any clues? I assume a re-boot would NOT be good enough, since the POST is not necessarily ran?
Yes, but leaving your PC powered off for 15 minutes before it gets stolen would seem to do the job just as well.

Which is to say, this is very interesting theoretically, but for most home users, I don't see any practical significance. We're talking about motivated attackers who have physical access to your computer and who arrive determined to capture your RAM content. Maybe law enforcement will come equipped for RAM transplants in some cases.

Even for the laptop-in-car case, it requires motivation and planning. I don't believe that is a factor in most such thefts. Or to put it another way, if you've got data that's worth someone doing RAM scavenging, you should think twice about whether it's appropriate to leave it on a laptop in your car.

Just think "data security requires physical security" and you're protected. This new attack drives another nail (well, perhaps just a wire brad) in the coffin of the idea that someone can have your computer and not have your data.


nklb
Premium
join:2000-11-17
Ann Arbor, MI
clubs:

reply to SUMware
even better article on the subject with an actual demonstration: »www.news.com/2300-1029_3-6230933-1.html
--
for all your Linux questions

mikenolan7
Premium
join:2005-06-07
Torrance, CA
reply to SUMware
Two important lessons here for most of us:
1. don't travel with your laptop in sleep or hibernate. Shut it down.
2. don't ever leave your laptop running in a public place and step away (duh).


Shamayim
I already have a Messiah.
Premium
join:2002-09-23
reply to SUMware
Can't wait to read Bruce Schneier's evaluation of this attack.

mikenolan7
Premium
join:2005-06-07
Torrance, CA
·Sprint Mobile Broa..

reply to SUMware
I don't remember where I got it, but I have a cheap little two piece laptop travel security item. You put one piece in the bag with the laptop, and the other in your pocket. If you get more than a few feet away, it starts beeping at you. I would bet that more laptops get left somewhere, and "found", than get stolen.

ihaddsl

join:2001-12-05
/dev/hda0
·Comcast

reply to jansson_mark
said by jansson_mark See Profile :

Easiest way to clear and wipe RAM is to reboot and let BIOS do the "Power-On Self Test" (POST). It will read/write whole RAM three times. End of game.
sure, but how many people are going to

after each shutdown, reboot and let post run (*WITHOUT*) loading the disk encyption keys again when the OS boots up?

It'll work for the truly paranoid, but not for the average laptop user, who is most vulnerable to these types of exploits


swhx7
Premium
join:2006-07-23
Elbonia
·RoadRunner Cable

reply to SUMware
An encryption co-processor, with tamper-resistance like the TPM, would avert this problem.

Trusted Computing hardware, in the form of Trusted Platform Modules (TPMs) [22] is now deployed in some personal computers. Though useful against some attacks, todays Trusted Computing hardware does not appear to prevent the attacks we describe here. Deployed TCG TPMs do not implement bulk encryption. Instead, they monitor boot history in order to decide (or help other machines decide) whether it is safe to store a key in RAM. If a software module wants to use a key, it can arrange that the usable form of that key will not be stored in RAM unless the boot process has gone as expected [31]. However, once the key is stored in RAM, it is subject to our attacks. TPMs can prevent a key from being loaded into memory for use, but they cannot prevent it from being captured once it is in memory.

But imagine something like the TPM, but designed for bulk encryption and decryption instead of DRM. As with the TPM, the key could stay in the chip and only values derived by use of the key would come out. Even within the chip, an encrypted version of the key could be useless without a passphrase. But the hardware owner would have the ability to read/write the key by special procedures (thus avoiding the evils of Trusted Computing), and it would be designed to encrypt/decrypt unlimited data at high speed, offloading this work from the main processor. It could be designed such that the time to break into it without triggering a self-destruct mechanism would far exceed any volatile memory retention; and the non-volatile data would be useless without the passphrase.

I know that devices similar to this exist today - e.g. Intel puts an IPSec co-processor on some NICs. It could become a widespread security mechanism in future.


jansson_mark
Markus Jansson
Premium
join:2001-08-05
Finland

reply to HA Nut
said by HA Nut See Profile :

if a user cold boots, allows the PC to go through the normal BIOS POST test, and then does a shutdown without entering any passwords, would the RAM be flushed of any clues? I assume a re-boot would NOT be good enough, since the POST is not necessarily ran?
"Cold boot" doesnt have anything to do with POST.
You set the computers BIOS so that every time computer is started up POST is done, clearing the RAM from all traces.

Ofcourse if you just shut down the computer, the POST is not done until the computer is next time started up. Thats why you should not shut down directly, but rather reboot (to BIOS state, no reason to start Truecrypt etc. WDE), so that POST can be run BEFORE you actually shut down the computer.

Just do it.


jansson_mark
Markus Jansson
Premium
join:2001-08-05
Finland

reply to ihaddsl
said by ihaddsl See Profile :

sure, but how many people are going to
after each shutdown, reboot and let post run (*WITHOUT*) loading the disk encyption keys again when the OS boots up?
If they are smart they WILL do it. It they are stupid, no encryption is going to protect them anyway, so...


jansson_mark
Markus Jansson
Premium
join:2001-08-05
Finland

reply to swhx7
said by swhx7 See Profile :

An encryption co-processor, with tamper-resistance like the TPM, would avert this problem.
Is it just me, but I from TPM I only get two particular words into my mind: Hardware backdoor.

I wouldnt trust any TPM to store my encryption keys. It just seems so perfect place to put all kinds of funky hardware backdoors and tempest-enhancing features in that TPM. No thanks.


Maxo
Your tax dollars at work.
Premium,VIP
join:2002-11-04
Tallahassee, FL
clubs:

reply to dave
said by dave See Profile :

Yes, but leaving your PC powered off for 15 minutes before it gets stolen would seem to do the job just as well.

Which is to say, this is very interesting theoretically, but for most home users, I don't see any practical significance. We're talking about motivated attackers who have physical access to your computer and who arrive determined to capture your RAM content. Maybe law enforcement will come equipped for RAM transplants in some cases.

Even for the laptop-in-car case, it requires motivation and planning. I don't believe that is a factor in most such thefts. Or to put it another way, if you've got data that's worth someone doing RAM scavenging, you should think twice about whether it's appropriate to leave it on a laptop in your car.

Just think "data security requires physical security" and you're protected. This new attack drives another nail (well, perhaps just a wire brad) in the coffin of the idea that someone can have your computer and not have your data.
I think this is important for assessing your risk. If you are Joe Shmoe like someone like me is, who has encrypted their data, which contains nothing more than some family pictures and school work, so if the laptop gets stolen they don't get that stuff, this isn't something you need to worry about. If someone happens to swipe my laptop it's unlikely that the person is going to be a security expert who has in depth knowledge of cracking encryption. It'll probably be some punk who saw a chance at a free laptop that they can sell for a couple hundred. When they can't get it to boot, they'll probably just wipe it and start with a fresh, unencrypted, operating system.
However, if you are a spy carying state secrets, this is something you may want to be very aware of. Of course, if you are such a person and you actually leave your laptop in a position to be stolen, you are a complete idiot.

ihaddsl

join:2001-12-05
/dev/hda0
·Comcast

reply to jansson_mark
said by jansson_mark See Profile :

said by ihaddsl See Profile :

sure, but how many people are going to
after each shutdown, reboot and let post run (*WITHOUT*) loading the disk encyption keys again when the OS boots up?
If they are smart they WILL do it. It they are stupid, no encryption is going to protect them anyway, so...
smartSavvy

The majority of users who are vulnerable to these types of attacks (mobile corporate workers) who have wde issued by corporate on their laptops are not going to have any idea that this is an issue unless corporate steps up and educates them on this (and even then getting people to put this into practice seems difficult at best)


refused

join:2005-10-10
Redding, CA

reply to SUMware
quote:
To reconstruct an AES key, we treat the decayed key schedule as an error correcting code and find
the most likely values for the original key. Applying this method to keys with 10% of bits decayed, we can
reconstruct nearly any 128-bit AES key within a few seconds. We have devised reconstruction techniques
for AES, DES, and RSA keys, and we expect that similar approaches will be possible for other cryptosys-
2
tems; we have correctly recovered keys from several popular disk encryption products.
wow
--
"Ubuntu" - an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".

dave
Premium,MVM
join:2000-05-04
not in ohio
reply to Maxo
If, however, like Markus you're worrying about Vay Eck attacks through the walls of your house, then I imagine you'll be taking this threat very seriously.


Anonymous_
Anonymous
Premium
join:2004-06-21
127.0.0.1
clubs:
·RoadRunner Cable
·Time Warner Cable
·Time Warner VOIP


2 edits
reply to jansson_mark
said by jansson_mark See Profile :

Is there any way to easily overwrite old data in RAM?
memtest86+ »www.memtest.org/

will over write it with usesless crap
Forums » Up and Running » Security » SecurityFP's from AVG8 scan. (solved) »
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