Didn't notice for a year? in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20049340 en Sat, 05 Dec 2009 14:24:51 EDT Sat, 05 Dec 2009 14:24:51 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20090248 dlr_graph : I will like to use your bank. When I use a merchant that holds any amount of money through my check card, my bank freezes that amount until the merchant releases the money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20090248 Sat, 01 Mar 2008 14:31:26 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051684 fiberguy : An ACH is different. An ACH, (automated clearing house) is a paperless check and is an 'item' that is 'presented' to the bank for payment. A credit card transaction that is simply declined never gets 'presented for payment'... it's just like calling the bank and saying, "can you transfer $100 from my primary checking to my primary savings" and them saying, "sorry, you don't have the funds.. " and it's over. An ACH is presenting a check.

If you try to buy gas at the pump with $0 in the bank, one of a few things will happen:

1) The pump will try to authorize the transaction. If the account is at $0, you will be declined.

2) The pump may do what's called an off line transaction and "trust" that you are going to approve.. allow you to pump the gas and submit the transaction after the fact. If this happens, you WILL get a bounce fee MOST LIKELY and this is tricky. If you SIGNED for the transaction, you agreed to pay.. money or not, you will over draw, you will pay the amount PLUS it was presented with your approval and you will pay a bounce fee too. IF you did it at the pump, you DIDN'T sign, you COULD have a case to not pay the bounce fee, BUT, you just admitted that you in fact requested the transaction and the bank will hold you to it since you just admitted to authorizing the payment.. ie: I agree to pay the amount below in accordance to the card holders agreement" and so on.

3) Most gas pumps only request a $1 authorization. If your account has that, you pump $30, you pay a bounce. Again, it's how the transaction was done.

But, if you only had $1 in the account, the pump requested an authorization on $0.50 cents, the transaction would decline, never turn on the pump, and the bank would never charge you a fee.

The grocery store example you gave above applies to #3. The transaction should have declined and no fee. He may not have had the money on his check register, pending payments to come out, and it allowed the approval of the transactions. If he got money in the bank that day or before it was presented to his bank, no fee. Besides, why was the guy using a card, debit or credit, either way knowing he had no money? If he used the debit/atm (pin side) of the card, it would decline. If he used the credit side, different clearing rules apply. He still should have most likely declined. (if all pending transactions on his account were in fact already cleared)

It all depends on HOW the transaction was presented to the bank and what was going on with any pendings on his/her account. . ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051684 Sun, 24 Feb 2008 00:22:19 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051584 amigo_boy :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

You're actually getting transaction mixed up here.
Could be. The example I gave (paying a credit card using the wrong bank account) was an ACH transfer. Maybe those are different.

I'll call my bank Monday and ask what happens if I have $0 in my checking account and try to buy gas at the pump. I assumed it would be like writing a bad check (or initiating an ACH transfer).

But, I've heard of people getting NSF charges for using a debit card. One day at the grocery store, in the self-checkout area a store employee was showing someone how to use self checkout. He ran the guy's debit card. The guy freaked out, saying he didn't have the money in his account, and now he'd be charged an NSF. I guess he wanted the employee to choose "credit" instead of "debit". The customer was pretty upset about how he was going to be hit with a fee.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051584 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:47:10 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051422 en102 : Yup - no need to have any outside access to my savings - so its not connected to checking/debit cards.

Sort of like running web hosting

Put your corp servers deep behind firewalls, and have limited access to servers that access the Internet.
Web / Email servers have access through a DMZ and only access thats needed.

Most companies that want your business want 'ease of access', and most commonly like dealing with automatic billing so that they don't have to process your payment (savings on their part), but it doesn't really benefit you in any way.

The _only_ scenario that I can think of that does any benefit is to use a card to rake up flyer miles by pushing bills through a credit card.
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Canada = Hollywood North]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051422 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:06:23 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051415 fiberguy :
"Overdraft charges occur even if the bank declines the transaction."
That's simply not true. I am both a card holder AND a merchant account holder. YOUR bank may be doing that to you, but the ONLY time they charge the fees is if they actually handle the bank. A "decline" never hits your account.

Again, see my examples in the other messages. It all depends on how the "authorization" number is used.

What's happening to you is simple..

Say you have $100 in your account. Today, you charge $90. Tomorrow, you charge $40. Card transactions take about 3 days to hit and clear your account. At the time of the $40 purchase, yes, the merchant gets an Authorization from Visa. Since the auth is valid, the transaction is allowed to be "approved". Since they had the approval, it doesn't matter HOW MUCH you have in your account, the bank MUST pay the authorization. Therefore, you will in fact be over drafted and charged the fee.

HOWEVER, if you only then had the $10 balance (post the $90) and it clears, you try to hit the card for another $40, it will decline.. simple decline. You won't get an overdraft. I will politely disagree with you and politely also tell you that you are simply wrong.. it does not work that way. It's based on an authorization and a settlement with the bank on that number. A decline will NEVER hit your account and charge a fee.

It's not like a credit fee for honoring the transaction (which you seem to be implying).
Credit cards work differently. Credit card companies will allow you to charge more than your limit. A DEBIT card allows you to post up to your balance - which establishes your limit. Again, depending on when you make the transactions (see above) you can over draw your account..

For example, I recently attempted to pay my credit card payment using the wrong bank account. The bank declined the transaction and charged me $25.
I hate to disagree with you.. there's more to that. A simple decline never hits your bank. The ONLY time a bank can charge you a fee is if they are "presented" with a "capture" (both terms with meanings) and they refuse to pay, which they can't if they "authorized" the payment.

If your bank is doing that on a debit card, with out presentation, then you are owed your money back.

HOWEVER, in what you said, "I recently attempted to pay my credit card payment using the wrong bank account".. for one, you weren't paying a credit card with a credit card.. you made a bank payment and yes, they will charge you the fee. You can't pay a credit card with a credit card which is a different issue.

(I called and explained what happened. They reversed the fee.).
Some banks are nice about that. My bank will reverse fees all the time. TCF Bank. (A midwest regional bank)

If you've found a bank that doesn't charge overdraft fees, that's great. Which bank is that?
Wells Fargo, Bank of America, US Bank.. none of them charge a fee on a pure decline. They WILL charge a fee if an auth was obtained at the time, but the account didn't have the funds at the time the authorization was presented to the bank. THEY ALL will charge the overdraft fee because that is a transaction they HAVE to pay on your behalf.

You're actually getting transaction mixed up here. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051415 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 23:04:35 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051352 fiberguy : It's not paranoia.. it's smart banking. Most small business will do this very setup you have. One account holds the gold, one is the one that is "known" and linked.. and the other is, like you, a checking account. The big thing for many people is that they REALLY should have an account that is on the outside of the "firewall" and then an account that "no one knows about".. that way, they always have a little egg behind the firewall that isn't able to be attacked. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051352 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:54:16 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051268 en102 : I had a similar experience... where Verizon sucked a little more than $1000 out of my checking account, and I didn't even have service with them.
I tend to split up my accounts:
1. Savings (where most of my money actually resides 90% of the time) - little access
2. Checking account - where checks be written form
3. Debit card checking account - the account that is used for Debit card / Checking card access.

Call it paranoia, but its a real pain when you have to go and get this all fixed up after having fraud against your account.
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Canada = Hollywood North]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051268 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:35:38 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051236 amigo_boy :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

This lady, she turned off her account, canceled it correctly. Did she fulfill her obligation? We'll say she did. She turns off that DEBIT card (not talking about credit at the monent) She turns off the card.. Vonage can claim all they want..
I guess it's a question of whether a person would rather monitor activity and dispute ongoing charges, or not monitor it and discover something on their credit report which could affect their interest rates and insurance premiums, and have to dispute that after the damage is done. For me, the latter looks potentially more costly.

said by fiberguy See Profile :

If a bank allows an overdraft wrongfully to "be nice" that's TOTALLY on their end.. not mine. (Read your agreement - some banks may be different and in that case, you live by your agreement - AGAIN, different story there)
Overdraft charges occur even if the bank declines the transaction. It's not like a credit fee for honoring the transaction (which you seem to be implying). For example, I recently attempted to pay my credit card payment using the wrong bank account. The bank declined the transaction and charged me $25. (I called and explained what happened. They reversed the fee.).

If you've found a bank that doesn't charge overdraft fees, that's great. Which bank is that?

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051236 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:27:19 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051203 fiberguy : E-X-A-C-T-L-Y!

To be honest, it was my own accountant that taught me the 2 account method..

You have one account that you use to sign up with for these shady people who want auto payments... and then you have the account that has the money.

At the time to pay bills, you add up the total amount you need to pay.. transfer it from your main account to your second account. You give the debit card to people on THAT one... the most you lose is your payments. The main account can NEVER be abused by these auto payers.

A long time ago, my web hosting company got purchased by Earthlink.. to my surprise, I was hit with a $2,200 withdrawal from my account.. it drained that account .. I wasn't doing well financially at the time.. they took everything. I needed to rent a car to take my dog on a 300 mile drive to the vet back home for Chemo.. Because of them, I couldn't rent the car and missed a crucial treatment.

THANK GOD that SOMEONE at Earthlink, in management, actually cared.. arranged for a rental car for me and I was able to meet my goals. I agreed that when I got back, we'd square up and they' issue the full refund minus the car and gas. (Quite surprising) But.. at that time, I learned my lessen.

One thing I DO like about companies about Paypal (and I Say that very loosely) is that at least with Paypal, YOU control the money, same as online bill pay, and not the merchant. Merchants are sloppy, careless, and irresponsible. The past few years should heed a warning. It was almost every week we'd tune in to see that yet again, more credit card information had been "lost" or "stolen".. and to be honest about it, they did the right thing and told us/the news a week AFTER it happened as well.. that is after they had time to let the lawyers and PR people do their own internal damage control assessments.. meaning, they didn't care about the customer as much as they did their own asses.

You really, these days, have to take any steps necessary to protect yourself. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051203 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:18:11 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051172 fiberguy : There is a difference between credit and debit.. MAJOR difference.

As for the turning off a card to enforce a termination. Not a single thing wrong with it.

Take the Vonage example for a moment. This lady, she turned off her account, canceled it correctly. Did she fulfill her obligation? We'll say she did. She turns off that DEBIT card (not talking about credit at the monent) She turns off the card.. Vonage can claim all they want.. it's up to THEM to prove damages on the customer. If it were me, for example, Yahoo Music did this to me, which prompted me to take this stance. They kept promising they'd turn my account off. They also kept taking money. I'd write them (only way) and tell them to stop. They said they would, and kept taking money. HOwever, as each month passed, they'd only promise to give me back only 1 month. Told me to "wait until next month" to see the credit. Next month, another charge.. They said "all we can do is THIS current charge, the other is too late.. so, yet another month goes by. This went on for 6 months, I NEVER got but 1 month out of 6 months. Because of this, I started the cancellation of cards routine.

As for vonage. Do I have any more ties to them? no. Can I turn the card off? Sure. If they keep trying to take money, that's their problem, they won't get it. Now, what if I turned off in month 9, and the policy stated I have to pay them that bogus $35 disconnection fee. Do I owe it? Sure! So, in that case, I'm in the wrong anyway.. I owe it. I don't turn cards off to get out of paying for something I Have to. I turn them off when they are no longer supposed to take it. BIG DIFFERENCE.

My cards are mine.. they are MY CARDS to authorize a payment. My authorization ends either at the end of my term with the merchant OR when I revoke it in accordance to the agreement. If I revoke my agreement, and turn off the card.. so what?

See my other post about overdrafts and how often they are bogus. If a bank allows an overdraft wrongfully to "be nice" that's TOTALLY on their end.. not mine. (Read your agreement - some banks may be different and in that case, you live by your agreement - AGAIN, different story there)

Also.. to be honest.. I have one card.. and only one card. An Amex Platinum.. I keep it that way. They don't F around with their members. I use the visa debit and master card debit for all others.

There are plenty of scrupulous businesses out there. I won't argue that they have a lot of power.. the problem that many people face is that they chose to deal with them.The biggest warning sign over any business deal that can go bad is when they lock you into any sort of agreement. In all honestly, for many many years, there was NEVER a reason for ANY business, other than a term loan, rental lease, or similar, to LOCK a personal end user into a "contract".. ever. (ie: cell phones, Vonage, or Satellite TV, and so on)

A "contract" is generally a sign of bad times ahead. If the product is worth it, the customer will stay. A Contract for "service" generally means that the service will suck and they use them to control the bleed that will surely come.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051172 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:12:04 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051165 en102 : I don't blame you - I don't like anyform of auto payment other than items that are fixed (eg. mortgage and car payment).
Similar to you, I'd be only using a card 'just for bills', if I ever let companies to do auto billing. I prefer online banking with my bank.
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Canada = Hollywood North]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051165 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 22:10:38 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051119 fiberguy : Not true.. at least with all banks.

My bank, if the money isn't there, they transaction is just declined.. If a check card is able to over draft an account, it means they are using an authorization number incorrectly. This happens quite a bit, and unless challenged, sure, the account holder burns. However, if the merchant tries to collect an amount from an account (debit) that doesn't have the funds, the transaction is supposed to decline. If the transaction is allowed to go through, the card member is NOT responsible for it. If the bank choses to honor the transaction, on a debit, it's their ass, not the card members.

(edit: a good example of a valid over draft situation is a rental card on debit. If at the time you obtain the car and there is $500 in your account, they hold $250 and get an auth for that rental, 10 days later you turn the car is, the money is no longer there (and most banks will drop the auth after about 3 to 5 days) and they do take the money ON THE AUTH # received, yes, your account WILL overdraw - with all due rights on the merchant. You will receive an over draft.

If you are at dinner, however, you only have $100 in the bank, the bill is $130, the transaction will decline. Auth and Capture is different from a pre-auth/post capture situation)

This is something that slips through the cracks all the time, goes un-challenged, and the card member will pay the fee.

However, if you have started a transaction when the account could handle the charge (the merchant gets an approval hold), later uses that approval number (which they can for up to a period of 30 days depending on the type of merchant) and the money isn't there when the transaction completes, YES, the merchant CAN take the money, CAN over draw your account, and YES, you will pay the overdraft fee.

In the case of Vonage, which doesn't report to credit companies by the way, are doing standard authorize and capture transactions, are NOT able to do what I said above. If they do, YOU, the member, are NOT responsible for over draft fees. As someone with a merchant account, and someone that's challenged this many times, what I say is correct.

If you allow your bank to do this, that's up to you.. but you don't have to. Visa/Master Card International set the guidelines and the banks MUST follow them. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051119 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 21:59:22 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051075 amigo_boy :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

You made a comment about "if you're late on a bill like an electric bill." Being late on an electric bill doesn't change your default rate.. (on a credit card) your rate will change when you're late on paying the credit card itself. ;)
I'm no expert. But, I've read a lot of Yahoo finance articles warning about predatory lending practices. They talked about more credit card companies using the default rate if you're late on any bill, not just that credit card payment. They've published some unbelievable examples.

Even with a debit card I'd be nervous about turning it off as a way to "enforce" my understanding that the service has been halted. With my debit cards that would lead to not only the original problem I referred to (the possibility of the service provider reporting me as late), but also $25 overdraft fees at the bank. I do have recent experience with that latter problem. :)

Also, even if you're not concerned about your credit cards resetting to the "default rate," if a late bill appears on your credit report (apparently causing some credit cards to invoke the "default rate"), it can impact you in other ways. Your home and auto insurance is likely based upon your credit score.

Credit reporting has become such a part of our lives that I'd just be reluctant to do that to force what could be a unilateral agreement. I'd even eat a month or two than to have something go into dispute (better part of valor thing).

I wish we had better "business reporting" in the face of how much control our credit reports have over us. It would be nice to know if we're entering into business with entities that might mess up our credit reports. It seems like we take it in the shorts, but business always gets away with anything.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20051075 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 21:49:30 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20050832 fireflier : I was thinking along the same lines. It would be unlikely for me to fail to notice an unreconciled charge for 1 month let alone 1 year. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20050832 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 20:54:03 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20050550 dvd536 :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

I don't use credit cards.. I used visa debit cards. On top of that, the debit card I use is attached to an account that is JUST for paying bills. I know how much the total AP is going to be, I move the money, and they take it. This limits my ability to be taken, abused, or to lose money.
not really. because if the money isn't there, it'll be taken and overdraft fees will be charged.
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You can never be too rich, too thin or have too much Bandwidth]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20050550 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:59:36 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20050391 fiberguy : I didn't say that. ;)

I'm not disabling a card to terminate service.. I disable a card to reinforce the termination of service. Basically, I don't like auto payments.. some places, vonage, force it.. so in some cases, you want it, you have to have it. So, I don't trust companies to be honest.. I cancel the card.

To be honest, I usually cancel them every 6 months anyway.

I don't use credit cards.. I used visa debit cards. On top of that, the debit card I use is attached to an account that is JUST for paying bills. I know how much the total AP is going to be, I move the money, and they take it. This limits my ability to be taken, abused, or to lose money.

When I change cards, I know who I need to update, and do it. Changing a card doesn't reset the default rate.

You made a comment about "if you're late on a bill like an electric bill." Being late on an electric bill doesn't change your default rate.. (on a credit card) your rate will change when you're late on paying the credit card itself. ;)

Again, I personally don't use CREDIT cads for these kinds of transactions.. I use them only when I am able to present the card myself. That's just me.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20050391 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 19:15:39 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049798 cornelius785 : yeah, isn't good practice to ensure that what you think you have in your bank account is the same as what the bank says you have and the charges on credit/deibt cards lines up to what you actually charged/debited?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049798 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:25:57 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049731 amigo_boy :
said by fiberguy See Profile :

when I call to stop a service, like Vonage, and want to ensure that it won't be charged again, I simply cancel the old service, and then activate the card in waiting. At that point, Vonage, for example, could pound sand all day long because any future purchases would get declined.
I'd be nervous about disabling a charge card as a way of terminating service (ignoring whether I'd reached mutual agreement with the people who charge it). A lot of credit card companies will reset your interest rate to what they call a "default rate" (28-33%) if you're late on a bill like an electric bill.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049731 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 17:09:27 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049578 fiberguy : While I * 10000000% * agree with you, I don't agree with Vonage's way of handling it.

I hate the "gotchya" mentality of any company. If they over charged a customer, they need to return it. This very debate was held in a comcast post about a year ago and people were hell bent against comcast keeping the money and on the side of the customer. hmmm.

I strongly disagree that any company should, even going back a year, should be able to keep money for a service long canceled. Even if the consumer didn't check the credit card isn't an excuse. That opens the door to businesses gambling with the consumer.

In some environments, credit card charges are approved, in a business or professional environment, and that's it. With paperless billing which Vonage is, it's MUCH easier for a company to sneak charges past people.

Personally, I have a system I use to stop this madness. I always call my bank and have a new card waiting to be activated. When I do finally activate the new card, it turns off the old one. So, when I call to stop a service, like Vonage, and want to ensure that it won't be charged again, I simply cancel the old service, and then activate the card in waiting. At that point, Vonage, for example, could pound sand all day long because any future purchases would get declined.

But, Mark, like you, I find it hard to feel Sympathetic about this one.. don't agree with Vonage either, but hard to feel sorry for her. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049578 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:37:09 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049417 Nightshade : Got a point there. I guess she doesn't pay attention to where her money goes.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049417 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:03:53 EDT Re: Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049410 MuDvAyNe : exactly, does this person not check their montly credit card statement..
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Mets, Cowboys, Devils]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049410 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 16:02:42 EDT Didn't notice for a year? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049340 amigo_boy : It's hard for me to be sympathetic of someone who didn't notice automatic billing for a year.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20049340 Sat, 23 Feb 2008 15:45:24 EDT