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fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | reply to amigo_boy
Re: Didn't notice for a year? There is a difference between credit and debit.. MAJOR difference.
As for the turning off a card to enforce a termination. Not a single thing wrong with it.
Take the Vonage example for a moment. This lady, she turned off her account, canceled it correctly. Did she fulfill her obligation? We'll say she did. She turns off that DEBIT card (not talking about credit at the monent) She turns off the card.. Vonage can claim all they want.. it's up to THEM to prove damages on the customer. If it were me, for example, Yahoo Music did this to me, which prompted me to take this stance. They kept promising they'd turn my account off. They also kept taking money. I'd write them (only way) and tell them to stop. They said they would, and kept taking money. HOwever, as each month passed, they'd only promise to give me back only 1 month. Told me to "wait until next month" to see the credit. Next month, another charge.. They said "all we can do is THIS current charge, the other is too late.. so, yet another month goes by. This went on for 6 months, I NEVER got but 1 month out of 6 months. Because of this, I started the cancellation of cards routine.
As for vonage. Do I have any more ties to them? no. Can I turn the card off? Sure. If they keep trying to take money, that's their problem, they won't get it. Now, what if I turned off in month 9, and the policy stated I have to pay them that bogus $35 disconnection fee. Do I owe it? Sure! So, in that case, I'm in the wrong anyway.. I owe it. I don't turn cards off to get out of paying for something I Have to. I turn them off when they are no longer supposed to take it. BIG DIFFERENCE.
My cards are mine.. they are MY CARDS to authorize a payment. My authorization ends either at the end of my term with the merchant OR when I revoke it in accordance to the agreement. If I revoke my agreement, and turn off the card.. so what?
See my other post about overdrafts and how often they are bogus. If a bank allows an overdraft wrongfully to "be nice" that's TOTALLY on their end.. not mine. (Read your agreement - some banks may be different and in that case, you live by your agreement - AGAIN, different story there)
Also.. to be honest.. I have one card.. and only one card. An Amex Platinum.. I keep it that way. They don't F around with their members. I use the visa debit and master card debit for all others.
There are plenty of scrupulous businesses out there. I won't argue that they have a lot of power.. the problem that many people face is that they chose to deal with them.The biggest warning sign over any business deal that can go bad is when they lock you into any sort of agreement. In all honestly, for many many years, there was NEVER a reason for ANY business, other than a term loan, rental lease, or similar, to LOCK a personal end user into a "contract".. ever. (ie: cell phones, Vonage, or Satellite TV, and so on)
A "contract" is generally a sign of bad times ahead. If the product is worth it, the customer will stay. A Contract for "service" generally means that the service will suck and they use them to control the bleed that will surely come. | | |
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Reviews:
 ·magicjack.com
| said by fiberguy:This lady, she turned off her account, canceled it correctly. Did she fulfill her obligation? We'll say she did. She turns off that DEBIT card (not talking about credit at the monent) She turns off the card.. Vonage can claim all they want.. I guess it's a question of whether a person would rather monitor activity and dispute ongoing charges, or not monitor it and discover something on their credit report which could affect their interest rates and insurance premiums, and have to dispute that after the damage is done. For me, the latter looks potentially more costly.
said by fiberguy:If a bank allows an overdraft wrongfully to "be nice" that's TOTALLY on their end.. not mine. (Read your agreement - some banks may be different and in that case, you live by your agreement - AGAIN, different story there) Overdraft charges occur even if the bank declines the transaction. It's not like a credit fee for honoring the transaction (which you seem to be implying). For example, I recently attempted to pay my credit card payment using the wrong bank account. The bank declined the transaction and charged me $25. (I called and explained what happened. They reversed the fee.).
If you've found a bank that doesn't charge overdraft fees, that's great. Which bank is that?
Mark | |
fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3
1 edit | "Overdraft charges occur even if the bank declines the transaction." That's simply not true. I am both a card holder AND a merchant account holder. YOUR bank may be doing that to you, but the ONLY time they charge the fees is if they actually handle the bank. A "decline" never hits your account.
Again, see my examples in the other messages. It all depends on how the "authorization" number is used.
What's happening to you is simple..
Say you have $100 in your account. Today, you charge $90. Tomorrow, you charge $40. Card transactions take about 3 days to hit and clear your account. At the time of the $40 purchase, yes, the merchant gets an Authorization from Visa. Since the auth is valid, the transaction is allowed to be "approved". Since they had the approval, it doesn't matter HOW MUCH you have in your account, the bank MUST pay the authorization. Therefore, you will in fact be over drafted and charged the fee.
HOWEVER, if you only then had the $10 balance (post the $90) and it clears, you try to hit the card for another $40, it will decline.. simple decline. You won't get an overdraft. I will politely disagree with you and politely also tell you that you are simply wrong.. it does not work that way. It's based on an authorization and a settlement with the bank on that number. A decline will NEVER hit your account and charge a fee.
It's not like a credit fee for honoring the transaction (which you seem to be implying). Credit cards work differently. Credit card companies will allow you to charge more than your limit. A DEBIT card allows you to post up to your balance - which establishes your limit. Again, depending on when you make the transactions (see above) you can over draw your account..
For example, I recently attempted to pay my credit card payment using the wrong bank account. The bank declined the transaction and charged me $25. I hate to disagree with you.. there's more to that. A simple decline never hits your bank. The ONLY time a bank can charge you a fee is if they are "presented" with a "capture" (both terms with meanings) and they refuse to pay, which they can't if they "authorized" the payment.
If your bank is doing that on a debit card, with out presentation, then you are owed your money back.
HOWEVER, in what you said, "I recently attempted to pay my credit card payment using the wrong bank account".. for one, you weren't paying a credit card with a credit card.. you made a bank payment and yes, they will charge you the fee. You can't pay a credit card with a credit card which is a different issue.
(I called and explained what happened. They reversed the fee.). Some banks are nice about that. My bank will reverse fees all the time. TCF Bank. (A midwest regional bank)
If you've found a bank that doesn't charge overdraft fees, that's great. Which bank is that? Wells Fargo, Bank of America, US Bank.. none of them charge a fee on a pure decline. They WILL charge a fee if an auth was obtained at the time, but the account didn't have the funds at the time the authorization was presented to the bank. THEY ALL will charge the overdraft fee because that is a transaction they HAVE to pay on your behalf.
You're actually getting transaction mixed up here. | |
Reviews:
·magicjack.com
| said by fiberguy:You're actually getting transaction mixed up here. Could be. The example I gave (paying a credit card using the wrong bank account) was an ACH transfer. Maybe those are different.
I'll call my bank Monday and ask what happens if I have $0 in my checking account and try to buy gas at the pump. I assumed it would be like writing a bad check (or initiating an ACH transfer).
But, I've heard of people getting NSF charges for using a debit card. One day at the grocery store, in the self-checkout area a store employee was showing someone how to use self checkout. He ran the guy's debit card. The guy freaked out, saying he didn't have the money in his account, and now he'd be charged an NSF. I guess he wanted the employee to choose "credit" instead of "debit". The customer was pretty upset about how he was going to be hit with a fee.
Mark | |
fiberguyMy views are my own.Premium
join:2005-05-20
kudos:3 | An ACH is different. An ACH, (automated clearing house) is a paperless check and is an 'item' that is 'presented' to the bank for payment. A credit card transaction that is simply declined never gets 'presented for payment'... it's just like calling the bank and saying, "can you transfer $100 from my primary checking to my primary savings" and them saying, "sorry, you don't have the funds.. " and it's over. An ACH is presenting a check.
If you try to buy gas at the pump with $0 in the bank, one of a few things will happen:
1) The pump will try to authorize the transaction. If the account is at $0, you will be declined.
2) The pump may do what's called an off line transaction and "trust" that you are going to approve.. allow you to pump the gas and submit the transaction after the fact. If this happens, you WILL get a bounce fee MOST LIKELY and this is tricky. If you SIGNED for the transaction, you agreed to pay.. money or not, you will over draw, you will pay the amount PLUS it was presented with your approval and you will pay a bounce fee too. IF you did it at the pump, you DIDN'T sign, you COULD have a case to not pay the bounce fee, BUT, you just admitted that you in fact requested the transaction and the bank will hold you to it since you just admitted to authorizing the payment.. ie: I agree to pay the amount below in accordance to the card holders agreement" and so on.
3) Most gas pumps only request a $1 authorization. If your account has that, you pump $30, you pay a bounce. Again, it's how the transaction was done.
But, if you only had $1 in the account, the pump requested an authorization on $0.50 cents, the transaction would decline, never turn on the pump, and the bank would never charge you a fee.
The grocery store example you gave above applies to #3. The transaction should have declined and no fee. He may not have had the money on his check register, pending payments to come out, and it allowed the approval of the transactions. If he got money in the bank that day or before it was presented to his bank, no fee. Besides, why was the guy using a card, debit or credit, either way knowing he had no money? If he used the debit/atm (pin side) of the card, it would decline. If he used the credit side, different clearing rules apply. He still should have most likely declined. (if all pending transactions on his account were in fact already cleared)
It all depends on HOW the transaction was presented to the bank and what was going on with any pendings on his/her account. . | |
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