| when was the last increase? I'd like to know when was the last increase on wholesale loop charges. Copper has quadrupled in price over the last 5 years. Don't see anyone mentioning that. |
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| Yeah because they should keep sticking with copper and not moving to fiber anytime soon. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. |
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| said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. That is correct. The only thing the Telco offers, and is required to offer, is unbundled copper. They move to all fiber and the indies are really dead. |
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 dru
join:2000-09-14
Corona, CA | reply to nanananana ynon
This is actually the first increase in loop charges to ISPs, and my company has been doing this for 10 years.
There have been a few "promotions" that expired, but this is the first accross the board increase and keep in mind while many things are going up due to inflation and the economy, this increase is 46%, WAY beyond any justification regarding energy, credit, etc.
As for copper, 90% or more of DSL uses the stuff that was hung or buried decades ago. And because this increase pertains to "line share" the copper loops are irrelevant since they share the local telephone service.
Building new homes? That uses fiber to a nearby node, most greenfield deployments are "Uverse ready". Of course, you don't see a lot of construction. As far as copper pair depletion, do you really think they are exhausting pairs used for landlines these days?
One interesting thing about this is the excuse is the "higher cost and use of bandwidth". The ISPs affected don't use their bandwidth at all - they provide their own, and unless ISPs are stupid in their purchasing decisions, backbone connections at the gigabit level are flat or dropping.
Second interesting fact is the fastest tier offered to independents is NOT increasing - the 6Mx768k speed, generally purchased by businesses and power users.
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I feel like I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe. |
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2 edits | reply to nanananana ynon
said by nanananana ynon :
I'd like to know when was the last increase on wholesale loop charges. Copper has quadrupled in price over the last 5 years. Don't see anyone mentioning that.
Cmon! Their copper is DECADES old! THAT excuse holds about a mm of water!
This is 100% GREED on AT&T's part! They can SQUEEZE, so they DO!
Besides, I already PAY AT&T for that line every month! It's called TELEPHONE SERVICE!
Thanks to the FCC, the 'last mile' wiring is an UNREGULATED monopoly! |
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Reviews:
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1 edit | reply to openbox9
said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep,
Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents.
Another UNREGULATED monopoly!
And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to.
The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. |
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| Verizon isn't yet.
Matter of fact they sometimes leave the copper drops , and they definitely will if you ask them to.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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| reply to dru
said by dru:This is actually the first increase in loop charges to ISPs, and my company has been doing this for 10 years. so this is the first price increase in more than 10 years, doesn't seem that unfair to me. Considering fuel/copper/healthcare costs and overall cost of doing business increases over the last decade. I'm shocked this is the first increase.
said by dru:As for copper, 90% or more of DSL uses the stuff that was hung or buried decades ago. And because this increase pertains to "line share" the copper loops are irrelevant since they share the local telephone service. They still have to replace copper all the time. Those costs have quadrupled. It costs more just to have it in stock. Old plant goes bad, not all new construction is fiber. |
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2 edits | reply to BosstonesOwn
said by BosstonesOwn:Verizon isn't yet. Matter of fact they sometimes leave the copper drops , and they definitely will if you ask them to. I'm talking about their old multi pair cables, the ones that run from pole to pole. The poles are so filled that they have to REMOVE the older 19 guage lead sheathed and paper insulated ones to PUT fiber in. The poles are loaded to capacity. Generally they replace these with 28 guage pairs that are less than a quarter of the size (and weight) of the old cables. Indeed, with the price of copper what it is, they'll probably MAKE money on the deal by scrapping the older wire. |
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| reply to qworster
said by qworster:said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep, Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents. Another UNREGULATED monopoly! And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. Why exactly should VZ allow ISP's to resell their fiber? VZ is investing $100 billion to implement FIOS.
And, if you must know, if the DSLAM is inside the CO, AT&T, et al doesn't have to "rent" DSL lines period.
The 1996 Telecom Act was meant for competition to USE RBOCs lines until they built their own. They were given time to do so then the FCC said enough of the UNE-P, UNE, etc. crap since nobody, including CLEC phone cos., were building their own networks.
The 1996 Telecom ACT just weakened the RBOCs. It was crap law in the first place. I don't think all these mergers should have happened, especially since Bellsouth was stronger financially than AT&T, but all the line-sharing should be profitable for the RBOCs. Failure to build their own networks is killing off indie ISPs and killed off most indie telcos.
Covad couldn't make it on lines being sold below cost by the RBOCs and filed bankruptcy. So, exactly who are people kidding about Indie ISPs ability to make it in a world where they have to pay the RBOCs what the DSL lines are worth?
GM has gotten billions and billions of tax breaks and doesn't have to let Toyota build cars on their lines so why should the RBOCs? Cable Cos. that offer telephone and HSI built out their networks and don't have to lease anything.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl |
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 en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | reply to dru
I would gladly purchase the elite tier to think that I'm actually getting something for my money (only $5 less for the pro), however, AT&T will not qualify me at +10,000', even though I could technically sync at +6Mbps/768kbps.
Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin (dB): 16.9 17.0
Attenuation (dB): 47.0 30.0
Output Power (dBm): 13.4 9.9
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 7296 996
Rate (Kbps): 3008 512
K (number of bytes in DMT frame): 95 17
R (number of check bytes in RS code word): 0 0
S (RS code word size in DMT frame): 1 1
D (interleaver depth): 0 0
Delay (msec): 0 0
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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| reply to isee
Standard telco lies:
1) "We have not increased prices"
But costs have fallen and prices have not
2) "We need to get a return on our investment"
Smaller companies serve small customers better, and the telco charges ISPs _more_ than the retail rate. Either a) the telco is losing money on retail or b) they're squeezing the ISPs for more money than the telco can get out of the service -- I suggest b
3) "innovation"
That happens in Japan and France and in the richest suburbs where FIOS is being installed
4) "cost of infrastructure"
Bell infrastructure was built to gold plate the costs because the costs determined the revenues. Look around you -- every telco switching center is on prime real estate (tho some is in the dying center of town near the factories that were the town's life when the switching center was built).
Here in NYC, ONE BUILDING sold for $500 million
»www.nytimes.com/2006/02/22/reale···f=slogin |
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 ptrowskiGot Helix?Premium
join:2005-03-14
Putnam, CT
kudos:4
 ·VOIPo
| reply to en102
said by en102:I would gladly purchase the elite tier to think that I'm actually getting something for my money (only $5 less for the pro), however, AT&T will not qualify me at +10,000', even though I could technically sync at +6Mbps/768kbps. Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin (dB): 16.9 17.0
Attenuation (dB): 47.0 30.0
Output Power (dBm): 13.4 9.9
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 7296 996
Rate (Kbps): 3008 512
K (number of bytes in DMT frame): 95 17
R (number of check bytes in RS code word): 0 0
S (RS code word size in DMT frame): 1 1
D (interleaver depth): 0 0
Delay (msec): 0 0
Have you tried the direct forum? They were able to qualify me so when I called in to order I told the sales person the technician's ID number to verify I could get Elite.
Also when they came for the installation the tech was able to remove alot of "dead" footage on the loop.
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"A religious war is like children fighting over who has the strongest imaginary friend."
Have you been touched by his noodly appendage? »www.venganza.org |
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| reply to qworster
Who told you that? 28ga? 19ga aerial? |
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en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | reply to ptrowski
Yeah, I've been on the AT&T direct forum before a couple of months ago, when AT&T actually 'dropped' me from being able to get the 'pro' speed, and I actually only qualify for 'Express'  I actually have to jump through hoops to have Pro listed
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | reply to qworster
Its corp America... lets get you for every cent that we can... and then find new ways to make more money by attempting to squeeze blood from a stone.
The phone lines and CO's have been paid for by tax payers for a long time.
Time Warner must be noticing this, and is offering me a decent deal:
Internet Only: 6Mbps/512kbps = $39.95, 10Mbps/1Mbps = $49.95 and of course, basic 1.5Mbps = $29.95
Phone/HSI bundled 6Mbps = $69.95.
I may be jumping off DSL-Extreme soon  as I'll be forced to $34.95 for 3Mbps/512kbps from $24.95/month unless I sign a year contract.
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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·DSL EXTREME
4 edits | reply to supergirl
said by supergirl:said by qworster:said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep, Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents. Another UNREGULATED monopoly! And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. Why exactly should VZ allow ISP's to resell their fiber? VZ is investing $100 billion to implement FIOS. And, if you must know, if the DSLAM is inside the CO, AT&T, et al doesn't have to "rent" DSL lines period. The 1996 Telecom Act was meant for competition to USE RBOCs lines until they built their own. They were given time to do so then the FCC said enough of the UNE-P, UNE, etc. crap since nobody, including CLEC phone cos., were building their own networks. The 1996 Telecom ACT just weakened the RBOCs. It was crap law in the first place. I don't think all these mergers should have happened, especially since Bellsouth was stronger financially than AT&T, but all the line-sharing should be profitable for the RBOCs. Failure to build their own networks is killing off indie ISPs and killed off most indie telcos. Covad couldn't make it on lines being sold below cost by the RBOCs and filed bankruptcy. So, exactly who are people kidding about Indie ISPs ability to make it in a world where they have to pay the RBOCs what the DSL lines are worth? GM has gotten billions and billions of tax breaks and doesn't have to let Toyota build cars on their lines so why should the RBOCs? Cable Cos. that offer telephone and HSI built out their networks and don't have to lease anything. Why? because the Telecommunications Act of 1996 REQUIRED THEM TO!
Remember, the telcos WERE ALL FOR THE ACT! They got LOTS from it...including the right to enter the long distance market...and it set up the buying out of each other-which is why there's but two major players now (AT&T and Verizon).
Now we know why they were so supportive of it, because they knew that Bush was going to steal the election in 2000 and they would get an FCC Chairman that would GUT the act!
Which is exactly what happened.....
Why do the lot of you support corporate America so much? They're SCREWING YOU, yet your reply seems to be "Thank you Master, may I have another?" Are you all so masochistic that you like being screwed over and over by them? |
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en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | reply to qworster
28 guage wire is what is inside the house, if I'm not mistaken.
AT&T rewired my block about a year and a half ago, after there was an issue with SoCal Edison's line burning up the AT&T lines. They replaced 18 gauge with 16.
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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 CoronaIt's cool, I'm takin it backPremium
join:2000-03-14
Dallas, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to qworster
You're way off base. supergirl  was right. The original intent of the TA'96 was to level the playing field while the competitors built out their OWN infrastructure.
Not a one of them did that, and that is why, subsequently it was gutted. |
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