Reviews:
 ·MSN
·Brand X Internet
·DSL EXTREME
1 edit | reply to openbox9
Re: when was the last increase? said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep,
Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents.
Another UNREGULATED monopoly!
And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to.
The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. |
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| Verizon isn't yet.
Matter of fact they sometimes leave the copper drops , and they definitely will if you ask them to.
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"It's always funny until someone gets hurt......and then it's absolutely friggin' hysterical!" |
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Reviews:
·MSN
·Brand X Internet
·DSL EXTREME
2 edits | said by BosstonesOwn:Verizon isn't yet. Matter of fact they sometimes leave the copper drops , and they definitely will if you ask them to. I'm talking about their old multi pair cables, the ones that run from pole to pole. The poles are so filled that they have to REMOVE the older 19 guage lead sheathed and paper insulated ones to PUT fiber in. The poles are loaded to capacity. Generally they replace these with 28 guage pairs that are less than a quarter of the size (and weight) of the old cables. Indeed, with the price of copper what it is, they'll probably MAKE money on the deal by scrapping the older wire. |
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| reply to qworster
said by qworster:said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep, Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents. Another UNREGULATED monopoly! And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. Why exactly should VZ allow ISP's to resell their fiber? VZ is investing $100 billion to implement FIOS.
And, if you must know, if the DSLAM is inside the CO, AT&T, et al doesn't have to "rent" DSL lines period.
The 1996 Telecom Act was meant for competition to USE RBOCs lines until they built their own. They were given time to do so then the FCC said enough of the UNE-P, UNE, etc. crap since nobody, including CLEC phone cos., were building their own networks.
The 1996 Telecom ACT just weakened the RBOCs. It was crap law in the first place. I don't think all these mergers should have happened, especially since Bellsouth was stronger financially than AT&T, but all the line-sharing should be profitable for the RBOCs. Failure to build their own networks is killing off indie ISPs and killed off most indie telcos.
Covad couldn't make it on lines being sold below cost by the RBOCs and filed bankruptcy. So, exactly who are people kidding about Indie ISPs ability to make it in a world where they have to pay the RBOCs what the DSL lines are worth?
GM has gotten billions and billions of tax breaks and doesn't have to let Toyota build cars on their lines so why should the RBOCs? Cable Cos. that offer telephone and HSI built out their networks and don't have to lease anything.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl |
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| reply to qworster
Who told you that? 28ga? 19ga aerial? |
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Reviews:
·MSN
·Brand X Internet
·DSL EXTREME
4 edits | reply to supergirl
said by supergirl:said by qworster:said by openbox9:Moving to fiber only serves to kill of the indies quicker. Yep, Because thanks to the FCC, the telcos don't even HAVE to provide fiber access to independents. Another UNREGULATED monopoly! And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. The fact is this: The poles are FILLED! Most telcos that are putting in fiber are taking down their older copper lines at the same time and replacing them with smaller guage wire. Why exactly should VZ allow ISP's to resell their fiber? VZ is investing $100 billion to implement FIOS. And, if you must know, if the DSLAM is inside the CO, AT&T, et al doesn't have to "rent" DSL lines period. The 1996 Telecom Act was meant for competition to USE RBOCs lines until they built their own. They were given time to do so then the FCC said enough of the UNE-P, UNE, etc. crap since nobody, including CLEC phone cos., were building their own networks. The 1996 Telecom ACT just weakened the RBOCs. It was crap law in the first place. I don't think all these mergers should have happened, especially since Bellsouth was stronger financially than AT&T, but all the line-sharing should be profitable for the RBOCs. Failure to build their own networks is killing off indie ISPs and killed off most indie telcos. Covad couldn't make it on lines being sold below cost by the RBOCs and filed bankruptcy. So, exactly who are people kidding about Indie ISPs ability to make it in a world where they have to pay the RBOCs what the DSL lines are worth? GM has gotten billions and billions of tax breaks and doesn't have to let Toyota build cars on their lines so why should the RBOCs? Cable Cos. that offer telephone and HSI built out their networks and don't have to lease anything. Why? because the Telecommunications Act of 1996 REQUIRED THEM TO!
Remember, the telcos WERE ALL FOR THE ACT! They got LOTS from it...including the right to enter the long distance market...and it set up the buying out of each other-which is why there's but two major players now (AT&T and Verizon).
Now we know why they were so supportive of it, because they knew that Bush was going to steal the election in 2000 and they would get an FCC Chairman that would GUT the act!
Which is exactly what happened.....
Why do the lot of you support corporate America so much? They're SCREWING YOU, yet your reply seems to be "Thank you Master, may I have another?" Are you all so masochistic that you like being screwed over and over by them? |
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 en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | reply to qworster
28 guage wire is what is inside the house, if I'm not mistaken.
AT&T rewired my block about a year and a half ago, after there was an issue with SoCal Edison's line burning up the AT&T lines. They replaced 18 gauge with 16.
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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 CoronaIt's cool, I'm takin it backPremium
join:2000-03-14
Dallas, TX
 ·AT&T U-Verse
| reply to qworster
You're way off base. supergirl  was right. The original intent of the TA'96 was to level the playing field while the competitors built out their OWN infrastructure.
Not a one of them did that, and that is why, subsequently it was gutted. |
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openbox9
join:2004-01-26
Alexandria, VA
kudos:2 | reply to qworster
said by qworster:And PLEEAZE, don't trot out that overused excuse that the indys could put up their own fiber if they wanted to. Ok, how about I trot out the "it's a cost of doing business and if the indies can't afford to play and continue providing a value-added service, then maybe they shouldn't be playing" valid logic. Or better yet, maybe the indies should do what they "should" be doing and innovate and drive new technology instead of leaching off of their competitors' infrastructures. |
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 KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to Corona
said by Corona:Not a one of them did that, and that is why, subsequently it was gutted. Revisionist history. Many of them were doing that, but then the rug was yanked out from under them and the rules changed. As a result, almost all of them have gone bankrupt or were bought up for pennies on the dollar by the incumbents.
If we had stayed the course on TA1996, we'd of been quite a bit closer to the Japanese model now, with many more choices.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) |
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| No we wouldn't have. Few of them did anything beyond falling into a comfortable rut of low expenses and high return. Then when the telecom market fell out from the internet bubble bursting a lot of poor planning on their part caused them to fold. |
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| reply to KrK
said by KrK:said by Corona:Not a one of them did that, and that is why, subsequently it was gutted. Revisionist history. Many of them were doing that, but then the rug was yanked out from under them and the rules changed. As a result, almost all of them have gone bankrupt or were bought up for pennies on the dollar by the incumbents. If we had stayed the course on TA1996, we'd of been quite a bit closer to the Japanese model now, with many more choices. Name several CLECs that were building their own networks. I know MCI wasn't. In fact, except a few local players that were aimed at business were, no one I know was. So, provide some examples? IDC sure wasn't. Even VZ tried to leech off of Bellsouth in S.Florida by reselling lines.
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Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl |
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 SplitpairPremium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3 | reply to qworster
said by qworster:Generally they replace these with 28 guage pairs that are less than a quarter of the size (and weight) of the old cables. Really 28 gauge copper? Oh crap we have been wrecking the old 26 gauge plant and installing 24 gauge for bonded ADSL and now (thanks to you) I find out we are going to need to rip out all that lower loss 24 gauge and replace it with real high loss 28 gauge. Damm now we're back to the beginning.
Wayne
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Yeah, there's a storm on the loose, sirens in my head
Wrapped up in silence, all circuits are dead
Cannot decode - my whole life spins into a frenzy
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SplitpairPremium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3 | reply to en102
said by en102:28 guage wire is what is inside the house, if I'm not mistaken. AT&T rewired my block about a year and a half ago, after there was an issue with SoCal Edison's line burning up the AT&T lines. They replaced 18 gauge with 16. Now I'm real confused way too many numbers. They replaced 18 gauge with 16 gauge? WTF? Do the porch lights come on in Canada when you go off-hook or something?
Wayne
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Yeah, there's a storm on the loose, sirens in my head
Wrapped up in silence, all circuits are dead
Cannot decode - my whole life spins into a frenzy
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en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | I'm in Los Angeles, and all the wire is buried.
SCE's 16kV line shorted and burned/melted up a block worth of AT&T 18 guage wire, blew out manhole covers and caught my nieghbors tree on fire. It melted the 18 guage POTS wire to the ground at my house, and charred the insulation a little.
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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SplitpairPremium
join:2000-07-29
Cow Towne
kudos:3
1 edit | reply to en102
said by en102:28 guage wire is what is inside the house, if I'm not mistaken. The closest to 28 I have ever seen was the 70’s copper shortage 26 gauge quad IW and the real early two and five pair lead jacketed buried service wire.
Don’t have any quad on hand but you can see the thinness (I snapped the conductor trying to remove the rubber insulation) of the conductors in the old lead jacketed BSW. With 28 gauge it would be almost impossible to work with and it’s why as time moved on we went from to 6 gauge hard drawn copper on open insulators to as small as they could work with copper (26) and now back to a larger gauge to support data. And then there's glass.
Wayne
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Yeah, there's a storm on the loose, sirens in my head
Wrapped up in silence, all circuits are dead
Cannot decode - my whole life spins into a frenzy
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en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA | The stuff that's in the walls in 'hair' thin, and a lot of the stuff that comes 'to the house' is almost as thick as the stuff in RG59U, just twisted, not shielded.
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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 PiggieI Actually use WindstreamPremium
join:2005-11-23
Orange Springs, FL | said by en102:The stuff that's in the walls in 'hair' thin, and a lot of the stuff that comes 'to the house' is almost as thick as the stuff in RG59U, just twisted, not shielded. 26 is about as "hair thin" as you can twist around a screw terminal in the house or hold in a punch down block. I have wired a lot of studio's for audio.
Now if you want to build a mainframe with heavy duty wire you use 28 gauge wire wrap wire. But 30 gauge will do just fine and if there are a lot of wires per post 30 is easier to work with wire wrapping.
But since we don't wire wrap houses, I would be shocked to find you have anything smaller than 26 for inside wiring. If you do, then someone was getting too cheap and good luck in the future.
With 16 gauge for DSL you could power a 12KHz porch light and have Attn values still around 2. No they don't use 16 gauge for phone unless it's self installed.
One time I have seen it. A friend of mine had a barn and put in his own cable. It was 500 ft from house and he was an "efficiency nut" and did run 14 gauge to the barn. I told him it was over kill but he didn't understand phone circuits either.
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| Speedstream 4200 Modem - 3m/384 plan | W98-W2KSP4-XPSP2 - All AMD | Buffalo WHR G54S with Tomato 1.13 | 3 downstream switches feeding 6 total clients (no wireless) | Including the Data port on the side of my neck | |
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KrKHeavy Artillery For The Little GuyPremium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK Reviews:
·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to supergirl
Companies like (and not limited too)
Allegiance
CTC
Choice One
Focal
Mpower
Net2000
NetworkPlus
USLEC
FiberNet
McLeodUSA
Metromedia Fiber
XO Communications
Teligent
Windstar
Covad
Network Access Solutions
Rythms
Williams Communications
etc etc
(Note some of these are still in business, but are still examples of CLEC's who were building out infrastructure...)
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) |
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en102Canadian, eh?
join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
1 edit | reply to Piggie
The 26 guage stuff is indoors... a few flexes on it, and it'll break. The house was built in 1970, so its nothing 'new', and there's a few pair that run through the entire house.
Interesting part is that I do get decent signal.
Provisioning Option CO
CO Distance 010.214KFT
1. Downstream Upstream
2. SNR Margin (dB): 16.2 16.0
3. Attenuation (dB): 47.0 30.0
4. Output Power (dBm): 17.1 9.9
5. Attainable Rate (Kbps): 6080 1000
6. Rate (Kbps): 3008 512
7. K (number of bytes in DMT frame): 95 17
8. R (number of check bytes in RS code word): 0 0
9. S (RS code word size in DMT frame): 1 1
10. D (interleaver depth): 0 0
11. Delay (msec): 0 0
12.
13. Super Frames: 605752 605750
14. Super Frame Errors: 291 4
15. RS Words: 0 0
16. RS Correctable Errors: 0 0
17. RS Uncorrectable Errors: 0 N/A
18.
19. HEC Errors: 123 0
20. OCD Errors: 0 0
21. LCD Errors: 0 0
22. Total Cells: 73056081 0
23. Data Cells: 5585872 0
24. Bit Errors: 0 0
25.
26. Total ES: 364 0
27. Total SES: 67 0
28. Total UAS: 25 0
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Canada = Hollywood North |
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