TwentyMBPS
join:2005-11-04
Toronto, ON
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
2 edits | What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ?
What is Non-PPPoE service and what are its advantages and disadvantages, granular details please.
Just found out TekSavvy is offering it.
See here: »www.teksavvy.com/en/resadsl.asp?ID=7&mID=1 |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE)
It means it doesn't use PPPoE for transport and authentication.
Slightly less overhead. Connects faster when the modem is turned on or reconnects. Off the top of my head, those are the only major "advantages". |
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TwentyMBPS
join:2005-11-04
Toronto, ON | reply to TwentyMBPS
What about security? |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| reply to TwentyMBPS
Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ?
Without the pesky PPPoE stuff, you have a permanent virtual circuit between you and your ISP. There is no session to establish because you are always connected.
You can get true 1500 byte MTU since there is none of the PPPoE crap overhead. But you are still slowed by the ATM stuff.
Because it is a permanent circuit, you cannot just switch ISP by changing your login info (there is no longin info). Your old ISP must relinqhish control of the line and your new ISP do whatever it takes to establish a permanent vitual circuit between you and them. (this is where PPPoE has an advantage).
When Teksavvy goes down, you don't get any alarms or signs (since there is no PPPoE session to go down. Your packets just don't get through. |
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TwentyMBPS
join:2005-11-04
Toronto, ON
1 edit | reply to TwentyMBPS
I think I'll give this a shot for a few months on my second phone line.
Thanks for the info. |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
·TekSavvy Solutions..
1 edit | reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei  :Without the pesky PPPoE stuff, you have a permanent virtual circuit between you and your ISP. There is no session to establish because you are always connected. In other words, you reconnect slightly faster, saving perhaps 3 seconds if you reboot your modem.
said by jfmezei :You can get true 1500 byte MTU since there is none of the PPPoE crap overhead. But you are still slowed by the ATM stuff. In other words, you eliminate the 0.53% PPPoE overhead. Zero point five three percent overhead eliminated. Not even a measurable difference. This means that 500KB/s download speeds would become 502KB/s. For only three times the cost, what a deal!
There is no practical advantages to having a non-PPPoE line, and it costs more than three times as much. Unless you can get a non-PPPoE line for the same price, don't bother. |
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DabberDan
join:2004-11-15
Gatineau, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| said by Guspaz :There is no practical advantages to having a non-PPPoE line, and it costs more than three times as much. Unless you can get a non-PPPoE line for the same price, don't bother. What circumstances would make it that someone could not get a PPPoE connection but a non-PPPoE connection? |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | I'm not aware that such circumstances exist. |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs:
| reply to DabberDan
said by DabberDan :What circumstances would make it that someone could not get a PPPoE connection but a non-PPPoE connection? PPPoE should always be available. There are no reasons I can think of where non-PPPoE would be available but PPPoE wouldn't be.
The only significant reason a company would want non-PPPoE is for high availability since it takes the BAS and ISP Radius servers out of the equation.
But for home use the added cost and installation charge is not worth it. |
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cutoff
@bell.ca
| reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz :There is no practical advantages to having a non-PPPoE line, and it costs more than three times as much. Unless you can get a non-PPPoE line for the same price, don't bother. Where I work we use DSL circuits as a failover for our main WAN connections. DSL is also used for other applications that are not suitable for the WAN. Having a connection that really is "always on" is a huge advantage in these situations. PPPOE makes things easier on the ISPs and telcos for administration, but presents some challenges to the client. These are easily overcome for home use, but many business clients require something a little more robust and are willing to pay for it. |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| How is it an advantage? It would be presumed that your routers would maintain a PPPoE session. In effect, this virtual device would be "always on". The only difference is at which level the handshaking takes place, be it a DSL sync or a PPPoE connection establishment.
I'll agree that you're removing potential points of failure, but you're not getting any functional difference. |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| reply to DabberDan
>What circumstances would make it that someone could not get a
>PPPoE connection but a non-PPPoE connection?
While this is rarer now, it wasn't always the case that all routers supported that PPPoE thing. Some outfit without PPPoE capability would need a real DSL service without that pesky PPPoE crap.
Some hardware has firmware that expects 1500 MTU and can't be changed. I beleive there are some older terminal servers that way.
With non-PPPOE, central management can always reach an office to perform maintenance on software, configs etc. With PPPoE, if the office has not initiated a session, then head office cannot connect to the remote office.
(Again, many routers now do their darndest to keep the pesky PPPoE connection up, but there are situations where they will give up and just wait for the local machines to try to make an outbound connection to try to raise the PPPoE session again).
In other words, just because routers now try to hide the uglyness of PPPoE doesn't mean that PPPoE is all of a sudden a great solution. |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
 ·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to TwentyMBPS
Telus's default used to be ADSL, don't think they would even allow PPoE through them.
The end user wont notice the difference, provided his router is setup to auto connect. As others have stated...you gain like 1-2 Kb/s max, which is pretty un-noticeable.
Only difference the end user has pretty much, is more flexibility with logins/secondary ISPS, instead of being locked into one.
Both work pretty much the same, if you were to sit down at a computer running either... odds are you wouldn't notice whether it was PPoE or ADSL. That being said.. yeah, ADSL isn't worth the extra money for it, unless for some reason you need it for convenience - No router, and wanting an always on connection for some reason. |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| Without PPPoE, it is also much simpler to deploy multiple machines with internet IPs at the customer site. It is possible with PPPoE, but requires a router capable of doing this without any NAT tricks.
Remember that the PPP in PPPoE is essentuially the same as dial-up PPP.
Having non PPPoE also prevents anyone else from stealing your login credentials, and "stealing" your line and IPs shoudl your link be down for any reason.
(On the other hand, with PPPoE, one could have a disaster relief site login with your credentials when the primary site goes down and provide the normal services with the same IPs). |
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TSI Joshua
joshb
Premium
join:2008-02-04
| reply to TwentyMBPS
Hi, TwentyMBPS,
Having had both PPOE service and HSA (non ppoe) service I can honestly say that the difference between HSA and ppoe service is little to non when things are working correctly, and that there is really no need to spend the extra money for most users....
If you are really considering getting the HSA service it would probably be best to give a call into the office to get all the specifics for it.....
Regards,
Joshua |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs:
| reply to Guspaz
said by Guspaz :How is it an advantage? It would be presumed that your routers would maintain a PPPoE session. In effect, this virtual device would be "always on". The only difference is at which level the handshaking takes place, be it a DSL sync or a PPPoE connection establishment. The trick is the "maintain" part. For some businesses the small delay while the router reestablishes the connection is unacceptable, assuming nothing goes wrong during the reconnect. On top of that I've lost count how many times Bell did maintenance on my BAS and my connection was out for a couple of hours.
For me as a residential user it was just an inconvenience. Only once I was annoyed as I was playing a game online after midnight.
The one big thing is that you can't do mlppp on a non-pppoe connection as the ppp part is required.  |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs: | reply to TSI Joshua
What does HSA stand for? |
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Inssomniak
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
| I have one of these lines now, and, well, Im getting rid of it, the PPPoE has been more than great, and isnt worth the price. I had one occasion where all 3 of my PPPoE lines and my one ADSL line at the same site went out at the same time, for almost 6 hours, so uptime is not really any different. |
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TSI Joshua
joshb
Premium
join:2008-02-04
| reply to avernar
said by avernar :What does HSA stand for? HSA is what we call a non pppoe dsl connection over at TSI... |
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bbuchanan
Premium
join:2004-02-05
Peterborough, ON | reply to avernar
HSA (the non-PPPoE service) stands for High Speed Access
GAS (the PPPoE service) stands for Gateway Access Service |
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