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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) It means it doesn't use PPPoE for transport and authentication.
Slightly less overhead. Connects faster when the modem is turned on or reconnects. Off the top of my head, those are the only major "advantages". | |
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TwentyMBPS
join:2005-11-04
Toronto, ON | What about security? | |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
 ·ELECTRONICBOX
| Without the pesky PPPoE stuff, you have a permanent virtual circuit between you and your ISP. There is no session to establish because you are always connected.
You can get true 1500 byte MTU since there is none of the PPPoE crap overhead. But you are still slowed by the ATM stuff.
Because it is a permanent circuit, you cannot just switch ISP by changing your login info (there is no longin info). Your old ISP must relinqhish control of the line and your new ISP do whatever it takes to establish a permanent vitual circuit between you and them. (this is where PPPoE has an advantage).
When Teksavvy goes down, you don't get any alarms or signs (since there is no PPPoE session to go down. Your packets just don't get through. | |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
1 edit | Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? said by jfmezei  :Without the pesky PPPoE stuff, you have a permanent virtual circuit between you and your ISP. There is no session to establish because you are always connected. In other words, you reconnect slightly faster, saving perhaps 3 seconds if you reboot your modem.
said by jfmezei :You can get true 1500 byte MTU since there is none of the PPPoE crap overhead. But you are still slowed by the ATM stuff. In other words, you eliminate the 0.53% PPPoE overhead. Zero point five three percent overhead eliminated. Not even a measurable difference. This means that 500KB/s download speeds would become 502KB/s. For only three times the cost, what a deal!
There is no practical advantages to having a non-PPPoE line, and it costs more than three times as much. Unless you can get a non-PPPoE line for the same price, don't bother. | |
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| | DabberDan
join:2004-11-15
Gatineau, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? said by Guspaz :There is no practical advantages to having a non-PPPoE line, and it costs more than three times as much. Unless you can get a non-PPPoE line for the same price, don't bother. What circumstances would make it that someone could not get a PPPoE connection but a non-PPPoE connection? | |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC | Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? I'm not aware that such circumstances exist. | |
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cutoff
@bell.ca
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? said by Guspaz :There is no practical advantages to having a non-PPPoE line, and it costs more than three times as much. Unless you can get a non-PPPoE line for the same price, don't bother. Where I work we use DSL circuits as a failover for our main WAN connections. DSL is also used for other applications that are not suitable for the WAN. Having a connection that really is "always on" is a huge advantage in these situations. PPPOE makes things easier on the ISPs and telcos for administration, but presents some challenges to the client. These are easily overcome for home use, but many business clients require something a little more robust and are willing to pay for it. | |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? How is it an advantage? It would be presumed that your routers would maintain a PPPoE session. In effect, this virtual device would be "always on". The only difference is at which level the handshaking takes place, be it a DSL sync or a PPPoE connection establishment.
I'll agree that you're removing potential points of failure, but you're not getting any functional difference. | |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs:
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? said by Guspaz :How is it an advantage? It would be presumed that your routers would maintain a PPPoE session. In effect, this virtual device would be "always on". The only difference is at which level the handshaking takes place, be it a DSL sync or a PPPoE connection establishment. The trick is the "maintain" part. For some businesses the small delay while the router reestablishes the connection is unacceptable, assuming nothing goes wrong during the reconnect. On top of that I've lost count how many times Bell did maintenance on my BAS and my connection was out for a couple of hours.
For me as a residential user it was just an inconvenience. Only once I was annoyed as I was playing a game online after midnight.
The one big thing is that you can't do mlppp on a non-pppoe connection as the ppp part is required.  | |
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Guspaz
Guspaz
Premium,MVM
join:2001-11-05
Montreal, QC
·Colbanet
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? It doesn't stop you from using multilink PPP, strictly speaking. The most effective solution would be to rent a dedicated server in Toronto and create PPP sesssions over each of the connections. The additional latency would be minimal (ideally, less than a millisecond added). Or, of course, there are other solutions to accomplish the same thing. | |
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| | | | | | | | the cerberus
join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON
3 edits | Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? said by Guspaz :It doesn't stop you from using multilink PPP, strictly speaking. The most effective solution would be to rent a dedicated server in Toronto and create PPP sesssions over each of the connections. The additional latency would be minimal (ideally, less than a millisecond added). Or, of course, there are other solutions to accomplish the same thing. What? I don't understand... What is the point of renting a server to use PPP when you can run PPPoE from your house with no latency added for cheaper, to just go back to PPP makes little sense, it would defeat the purpose of having a non-PPP line to begin with!
Strictly speaking everyone missed the point, non PPPoE ADSL removes Bell's BAS control over your line, I would assume no throttling would be able to be applied to your line.
Question: If HSA hardly improves anything at all why does it cost so much more? Where is the money justified? Or is it Bell who controls the cost of this and thus it is just unjustified like a lot of things Bell does. I mean adding and maintaining servers locally doesn't even make much sense, wouldn't cost more money to run the local BAS's for PPPoE? | |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs:
| said by DabberDan :What circumstances would make it that someone could not get a PPPoE connection but a non-PPPoE connection? PPPoE should always be available. There are no reasons I can think of where non-PPPoE would be available but PPPoE wouldn't be.
The only significant reason a company would want non-PPPoE is for high availability since it takes the BAS and ISP Radius servers out of the equation.
But for home use the added cost and installation charge is not worth it. | |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| >What circumstances would make it that someone could not get a
>PPPoE connection but a non-PPPoE connection?
While this is rarer now, it wasn't always the case that all routers supported that PPPoE thing. Some outfit without PPPoE capability would need a real DSL service without that pesky PPPoE crap.
Some hardware has firmware that expects 1500 MTU and can't be changed. I beleive there are some older terminal servers that way.
With non-PPPOE, central management can always reach an office to perform maintenance on software, configs etc. With PPPoE, if the office has not initiated a session, then head office cannot connect to the remote office.
(Again, many routers now do their darndest to keep the pesky PPPoE connection up, but there are situations where they will give up and just wait for the local machines to try to make an outbound connection to try to raise the PPPoE session again).
In other words, just because routers now try to hide the uglyness of PPPoE doesn't mean that PPPoE is all of a sudden a great solution. | |
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TwentyMBPS
join:2005-11-04
Toronto, ON
1 edit | I think I'll give this a shot for a few months on my second phone line.
Thanks for the info. | |
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Ikarasu
join:2004-01-09
Port Coquitlam, BC
 ·ITalkBB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| Telus's default used to be ADSL, don't think they would even allow PPoE through them.
The end user wont notice the difference, provided his router is setup to auto connect. As others have stated...you gain like 1-2 Kb/s max, which is pretty un-noticeable.
Only difference the end user has pretty much, is more flexibility with logins/secondary ISPS, instead of being locked into one.
Both work pretty much the same, if you were to sit down at a computer running either... odds are you wouldn't notice whether it was PPoE or ADSL. That being said.. yeah, ADSL isn't worth the extra money for it, unless for some reason you need it for convenience - No router, and wanting an always on connection for some reason. | |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? Without PPPoE, it is also much simpler to deploy multiple machines with internet IPs at the customer site. It is possible with PPPoE, but requires a router capable of doing this without any NAT tricks.
Remember that the PPP in PPPoE is essentuially the same as dial-up PPP.
Having non PPPoE also prevents anyone else from stealing your login credentials, and "stealing" your line and IPs shoudl your link be down for any reason.
(On the other hand, with PPPoE, one could have a disaster relief site login with your credentials when the primary site goes down and provide the normal services with the same IPs). | |
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TSI Joshua
joshb
Premium
join:2008-02-04
| Hi, TwentyMBPS,
Having had both PPOE service and HSA (non ppoe) service I can honestly say that the difference between HSA and ppoe service is little to non when things are working correctly, and that there is really no need to spend the extra money for most users....
If you are really considering getting the HSA service it would probably be best to give a call into the office to get all the specifics for it.....
Regards,
Joshua | |
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avernar
join:2002-05-23
Mississauga, ON
clubs: | Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? What does HSA stand for? | |
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Inssomniak
Premium
join:2005-04-06
Cayuga, ON
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? I have one of these lines now, and, well, Im getting rid of it, the PPPoE has been more than great, and isnt worth the price. I had one occasion where all 3 of my PPPoE lines and my one ADSL line at the same site went out at the same time, for almost 6 hours, so uptime is not really any different. | |
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TSI Joshua
joshb
Premium
join:2008-02-04
| said by avernar :What does HSA stand for? HSA is what we call a non pppoe dsl connection over at TSI... | |
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| | bbuchanan
Premium
join:2004-02-05
Peterborough, ON | HSA (the non-PPPoE service) stands for High Speed Access
GAS (the PPPoE service) stands for Gateway Access Service | |
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otheroptions3
join:2007-01-17
| lets go back a bit when things were bctel...MMG for those of you that remember...it was non pppoe and a residential service. fixed ip and gateway and away you went those things changed when bell and telus split things up and bctel went way. wsa fun while it lasted
no pppoe software..at the time no win xp so lots of issues existed with enternet300 software.
also out west over uniserve lines you connect via your mac address no username or password | |
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erik123
@telus.net
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? > also out west over uniserve lines you connect via your mac address no username or password
My Uniserve ADSL line in the office in BC is PPPoE. My router manages the login and maintains a permanent connection. I don't notice any difference in performance or connectivity compared to my Telus ADSL line at home. | |
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pawelluk
join:2008-02-24 | Is there any decrease in latency on a non-pppoe connection? It would be nice to have lower latency on an adsl, especially when connect from work to home. Any suggestions? | |
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jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? HSA theoretically has a decrease in latency. There is no encapsulation/extraction of the TCPIP packet, and less processing by Bell. But that decrease may not be noticeable.
If HSA totally bypasses the Ellayoya satanic boxes, that would also provide for slightly lower latency, but again, might not be noticeable.
The sad thing is that if we all switch to HSA to escape Bell's satanic crippling of GAS, Bell will get more revenus from us, at no extra cost to Bell. | |
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Puggy1
join:2005-02-20
Canada | So for someone in BC currently with Telus... If I switched to TekSavvy, would I be on PPPoE, non-PPPoE, or would I be given the option? | |
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| beamer69
join:2007-05-10
Burnaby, BC
| Re: What is: ADSL High Speed Internet (Non-PPPOE) ? said by Puggy1 :So for someone in BC currently with Telus... If I switched to TekSavvy, would I be on PPPoE, non-PPPoE, or would I be given the option? You will be on PPPoE and it works fine  I didn't notice any difference once it was setup.
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Turbinator
join:2007-10-14
Mississauga, ON | Is non-ppoe throttled? | |
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