BBR_InsUW
AA or NF thats my Game
Premium,Mod
join:2000-04-22
La Mesa, CA
clubs:
Host:
Team Starfire
1 edit | reply to flugelhorn
Re: My final thoughts
See the above post is a clear example of the problem, and of course its a conspiracy to prevent everyone from learning that ET was here and trying to phone home ....
Please since your prior post was deleted as a trolling post, now you know that by posting this and openly questioning/challenging it, to be deleted to prove your point and since you are clearly from the other team, your motives are clear. mod note removed incorrect assumption as to the poster being on other team
so what to do If I delete the thread you can say you win, If I leave it you say I was afraid to and that I am weak, or I can do neither and lock the thread with my only tool you cant get around now and I get to have the last word.
So my last word is I am sorry to the members of THIS team that we cant just go on and crunch in peace, no matter how hard many of us try to do that.
Edward
--
[BBR]Clan Leader
TWL Competition Director N/A and OC
AA BETA TESTER
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flugelhorn
join:2008-03-01
| reply to BBR_InsUW
said by BBR_InsUW  :Skellbasher yes you can ask and some will be glad to give you answers, and that is where the problem starts. What happens is that you get 2 or 3 or 4 points of view on what happened and since a very large portion did not take place in this forum there are Holes in the history. Anytime you have holes in history we all get a free ride to make up what we want to fill in the holes. Its human nature to want to know every little piece of the puzzle and when we cant, we speculate and guess about what is missing. There is where the problems start and why its a tough issue. Are there grudges, I know there are, I don't go to the other team site and post or read so I have no clue as to what they say, but every time a thread shows up here we see a large increase in anon posts and we see specific types of posts with an effort to open up issues and make specific comments. Now I personally don't have an issue with polite and civil discussion, I even like to have some more serious discussions. But not everyone has the ability to keep it civil and usually it gets out of hand very fast. So you ask a simple question of what happened and the next thing you know the "shit hit the fan" with the thread and you see lots of modding and deleted posts. And that starts the whole over-modding and we are trying to hide something. I do understand what is going on and I have tried my best to be fair and I am sure the others that MOD in this forum do also. So its a fine line that we are trying to balance on, the ability to have reasonable discussions without having to resort to excessive moderation. There is no easy answer but I do not hear of complaints that members from here are posting in other place and causing trouble. So yes I prefer to answer that there was a rift and some left the team, its not the best but its by far the safest. Lastly it is truly OUR forum to run as we see fit and as long as you remember that the word OUR means the entire StarFire/Einstein Team. Edward Mr. Moderator(s):
It still doesn't add up.
Let us take a quick look at a pair of hypothetical scenarios.
Assume, for a second, you're right and they were all "troll" posts. Does this forum need a nanny to protect everyone from the evil trolls?
Back before the split, we knew how to deal with trolls without moderator intervention (or with mods posting publicly and helping us dispatch the few trolls who did wander in). We could read a post and decide for ourselves what was troll and what wasn't, and we handled the trolls by ourselves without the need for a nanny to step in.
Now let’s assume that they all weren't trolls. Or go a step further and say that most of them weren't trolls. Let’s say that a few of those posts present a view that the mods don't want the members here exposed to. Well, then, you are hiding something from members, and all isn't as open and public as you might want the members here to believe.
Which scenario is correct? Well, members of this forum don't know. Sure, they can take your word for it, but it would all be much simpler if they could see and decide for themselves. That is open, public and democratic.
Now that brings up another question. Why aren't the members of this forum, who are intelligent, responsible members of this online community and fully capable of making their own decisions, not being allowed to see the posts and decide for themselves?
If the first scenario is correct and they were all troll post, by deleting them, mods have created the appearance that information is being hidden, and have deprived the responsible members of this forum the opportunity to make their own decision.
And if the second scenario is right, the appearance is the reality.
The only way to know for sure is to restore the original posts. Otherwise, there will always be the appearance of over-moderation in an attempt to hide something.
And if the mods decide to delete this, which I expect, you know where to find a copy. |
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jons
Premium
join:2003-04-15
East Elmhurst, NY
clubs:
| reply to BBR_InsUW
Thanks for the reply, Edward -
I just want to make myself and my comments clearer, if possible. I didn't mean to suggest that there is any damaging "control" going on in this forum now. I have noticed the locked threads and deleted posts, of course - but in my own opinion, most were easily classified as trolls making mischief.
I simply wanted to point out the importance of keeping things open here in our little home. Other than that, we should all be welcome to crunch the hours away happily and peacefully!  |
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BBR_InsUW
AA or NF thats my Game
Premium,Mod
join:2000-04-22
La Mesa, CA
clubs:
Host:
Team Starfire
| reply to SkellBasher
said by SkellBasher :said by BBR_InsUW :If the question comes up about what happened its just this easy just politely explain that "there was a rift and some left and that is the way of the world" But shouldn't people have the right to ask questions about it if they want to know more details? If someone would like to know more about why things ended up as they did, should they not be allowed to ask? We're pretty much all adults here, a civil conversation should be well within our capabilities. Restricting the mention of TSWB, or the team split to be "it happened" is almost revisionist history. It's akin to a student asking what started WWI, and being told "someone got shot, but the allies won, so let it go". Does it bring up some old grudges some people still have? It's obvious that it does. However, it is my opinion that any time it comes up, the folks who moderate this forum start to over-moderate it to death in order to restrict the perspective of events. No, I don't personally want to rehash the events. It took me a couple days back then to read through all the public threads here to figure out what was going on myself. Anyone should be entitled to ask questions about those events, as painful as it may be for some to rehash them, and not bu subject to piecing through threads of edits and half deleted posts. You may respond with 'we'll run our forum like we want', and that's fine. At least let these competing opinions be seen so readers can make their own, informed decisions. Skellbasher yes you can ask and some will be glad to give you answers, and that is where the problem starts.
What happens is that you get 2 or 3 or 4 points of view on what happened and since a very large portion did not take place in this forum there are Holes in the history.
Anytime you have holes in history we all get a free ride to make up what we want to fill in the holes. Its human nature to want to know every little piece of the puzzle and when we cant, we speculate and guess about what is missing.
There is where the problems start and why its a tough issue.
Are there grudges, I know there are, I don't go to the other team site and post or read so I have no clue as to what they say, but every time a thread shows up here we see a large increase in anon posts and we see specific types of posts with an effort to open up issues and make specific comments.
Now I personally don't have an issue with polite and civil discussion, I even like to have some more serious discussions. But not everyone has the ability to keep it civil and usually it gets out of hand very fast.
So you ask a simple question of what happened and the next thing you know the "shit hit the fan" with the thread and you see lots of modding and deleted posts. And that starts the whole over-modding and we are trying to hide something.
I do understand what is going on and I have tried my best to be fair and I am sure the others that MOD in this forum do also.
So its a fine line that we are trying to balance on, the ability to have reasonable discussions without having to resort to excessive moderation.
There is no easy answer but I do not hear of complaints that members from here are posting in other place and causing trouble.
So yes I prefer to answer that there was a rift and some left the team, its not the best but its by far the safest.
Lastly it is truly OUR forum to run as we see fit and as long as you remember that the word OUR means the entire StarFire/Einstein Team.
Edward
--
[BBR]Clan Leader
TWL Competition Director N/A and OC
AA BETA TESTER
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SkellBasher
Yes Sorto, I'll take my Prozac
join:2000-10-22
North Tonawanda, NY
1 edit | reply to BBR_InsUW
said by BBR_InsUW :If the question comes up about what happened its just this easy just politely explain that "there was a rift and some left and that is the way of the world" But shouldn't people have the right to ask questions about it if they want to know more details? If someone would like to know more about why things ended up as they did, should they not be allowed to ask? We're pretty much all adults here, a civil conversation should be well within our capabilities.
Restricting the mention of TSWB, or the team split to be "it happened" is almost revisionist history. It's akin to a student asking what started WWI, and being told "someone got shot, but the allies won, so let it go".
Does it bring up some old grudges some people still have? It's obvious that it does. However, it is my opinion that any time it comes up, the folks who moderate this forum start to over-moderate it to death in order to restrict the perspective of events.
No, I don't personally want to rehash the events. It took me a couple days back then to read through all the public threads here to figure out what was going on myself. Anyone should be entitled to ask questions about those events, as painful as it may be for some to rehash them, and not bu subject to piecing through threads of edits and half deleted posts.
You may respond with 'we'll run our forum like we want', and that's fine. At least let these competing opinions be seen so readers can make their own, informed decisions. |
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BBR_InsUW
AA or NF thats my Game
Premium,Mod
join:2000-04-22
La Mesa, CA
clubs:
Host:
Team Starfire
| reply to jons
Jons the PIC was a pic about beating a dead horse. Nothing more.
I can say that over the last year of so the deleted posts or locked threads are very few and usually the deleted one are clearly outside the forum guidelines or just plain trolls or flames.
I seldom have to mod anything in here and that is the way it should be and I prefer to just crunch away in peace and live in the present and not in the past.
If the question comes up about what happened its just this easy just politely explain that "there was a rift and some left and that is the way of the world"
--
[BBR]Clan Leader
TWL Competition Director N/A and OC
AA BETA TESTER
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TransitMan
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-05
Dayton, OH
clubs:
 ·RoadRunner Cable
 ·Time Warner VOIP
·Earthlink TrueVoice
| reply to Jammy
Hey Jammy , you hot Klingon woman.
How's life down south. provided you are still there?
And to echo what my Klingon comrade has stated, there are people we know on both sides, and what happened in the past stays in the past.
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PROUD TO BE THE DIRECTOR OF THE CRUNCHENSTEIN ASSOCIATION AND THE HOST OF CRUNCHENSTEIN #2 |
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jwhorfin
Premium
join:2000-10-22
Torrington, CT
clubs:
 ·AT&T DSL Service
| reply to jons
said by jons : I simply think it is very important that this team and forum operate democratically, by the will of its members. Open discussion (and change, if necessary) should ideally happen all the time here. I couldn't agree more with this statement and your comment in whole.
I also thank the powers that be for unlocking this thread. |
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jons
Premium
join:2003-04-15
East Elmhurst, NY
clubs:
| reply to Alnero
I don't know what "picture" you're referring to, Hank. And from the sound of this thread so far, it's probably better not to know!  
The charge of "what is being hidden" laid against this team is rather disheartening to hear, at best. Nothing I know of, and no one - this team AND those who left, included - is anywhere near perfect, but I just want to point out that my own main issue when the Big Break occurred was the complete lack of openness about what was going on. This team was taken in a certain direction by a handful of people, with no polling of members or even a simple question or heads-up. I brought that concern up early on, and to be honest, I could have taken my crunching elsewhere had things been handled differently or even a simple apology offered. It was specifically the hidden agenda and lack of communication that turned me off.
I bring this up not to open old wounds or to fan any flames. I simply think it is very important that this team and forum operate democratically, by the will of its members. Open discussion (and change, if necessary) should ideally happen all the time here. |
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HFB1217
The Wizard
Premium,ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-26
Camelot
clubs:
3 edits | reply to Alnero
I have removed the (EDIT) it was a second dead horse image(/EDIT)picture in the interests of peace and although it was meant to bring an end to the thread and not provoke I want the disharmony to end on both sides.
Hank |
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Jammy
be'suvwl
Premium
join:2000-11-03
Chula Vista, CA
clubs:
|  reply to Alnero
Gee . . .why is it when I occasionally drop in to lurk that I run across threads like this one? It took me a good 5 minutes after I started reading the posts until I realized what they were referring to.
Well I have friends on both sides of the fence and that is that! And just because I do not crunch Seti any longer (RL) does not mean I do not come to this forum or other forums if anything just to lurk or visit with old friends.
It is very distressful to see "taking sides" again and/or accusations of any kind.
After all, this is just a forum to share ideas not to bash each other.
Jammy
p.s. Hi Patrick!
--
The Klingon Hotsauce Queen
lagh lucharghlu'bogh HuH ghopDu'lIj lungaSjaj |
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HFB1217
The Wizard
Premium,ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-26
Camelot
clubs:
| reply to Alnero
Skellbasher my comments were directed to both TS and TSWB posters. I did not exclude either side nor did I say it in reference to a single posting I included all.
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****aka The WIZARD **** A Founding member Seti BBR Team Starfire**** |
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BBR_InsUW
AA or NF thats my Game
Premium,Mod
join:2000-04-22
La Mesa, CA
clubs:
Host:
Team Starfire
| reply to SkellBasher
said by SkellBasher :HFB, I would like to know what comments that you consider to be 'garbage and provocative'. I don't see that at all. SkellBasher you wont see them as they were removed.
And yes its sad that some cant let it go and this applies to both, and Folks its really time to let it go. |
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SkellBasher
Yes Sorto, I'll take my Prozac
join:2000-10-22
North Tonawanda, NY | reply to HFB1217
HFB, I would like to know what comments that you consider to be 'garbage and provocative'. I don't see that at all. |
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FutureMon
OW My Eyes
Premium,ExMod 2002-05
join:2000-10-05
Colorado Springs, CO
clubs:
| reply to SkellBasher
Re: My final thoughts
Hi everyone! Still here! 
Lots going on in my life at the moment. Haven't crunched in quite some time but still frequent BBR and this forum. Just don't post as much as I used to. RL tends to make that happen to people.
Well just thought I'd pop in. Sad to see this stuff still going on, but it's not changing my mind to hang around here.
- FM
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Undisputed BBR Karaoke Champion! Care to challenge me? |
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SkellBasher
Yes Sorto, I'll take my Prozac
join:2000-10-22
North Tonawanda, NY | reply to Alnero
It is somewhat sad to see that such animosity still remains on both sides after so much time. |
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BBR_InsUW
AA or NF thats my Game
Premium,Mod
join:2000-04-22
La Mesa, CA
clubs: | reply to Alnero
I wont lock this and ask that everyone remember that the issues of the past are the past and till we can write a History book we can just polietly explain that there was a rift and some left and that is the way of the world. |
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BBR_InsUW
AA or NF thats my Game
Premium,Mod
join:2000-04-22
La Mesa, CA
clubs:
Host:
Team Starfire
| reply to Alnero
said by Alnero :It seems that few people here feel that I deserve to be let know why there was a split, and because of this my last thread has been locked and many posts have been deleted for whatever reason. I'd just like to wish you all the best with BBRTS, but I can no longer remain a member, not because of what I've found out, but because of what is being hidden from me. I can't remain in a team that is doing it's best to keep information from me.... This is a sad day for me, I've been crunching for a long time and most of that time was as part of BBRTS. Goodbye, Alnero Sorry to see you go but before I can say that I will tell you, that you asked a question and it was answered and the fact that the thread was locked had nothing to do with your question, but more of the trolls that like to show up and try to cause trouble.
You are withing to leave then Fine that is your choice, but do not feel that its due to anyone hiding anything, more to the point its more open now and little is taking place behind the scenes.
As this thread shows we can agree and disagree and keep our perspective and keep crunching.
Thats what its all about anyway.
Best of Luck to you
Edward
--
[BBR]Clan Leader
TWL Competition Director N/A and OC
AA BETA TESTER
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HFB1217
The Wizard
Premium,ExMod 2000-01
join:2000-06-26
Camelot
clubs:
1 edit | reply to Alnero
Have Mercy Please. |
Guys please enough already please. |
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