New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? in Verizon Fiber Optics

New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? in Verizon Fiber Optics http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20093537 en Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:45:08 EDT Sat, 05 Dec 2009 16:45:08 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20116064 merp : Okay, some additional details. I've configured my Powermac workstation as a DMZ host in the Actiontec. I'm running an FTP and HTTP server, with the HTTP server configured for a high port. Regardless of service, regardless of remote host, when the connections are initiated inbound to my FiOS, I see the stairstep effect shown in the image I posted. Remote clients include:

the workstation on my desk at the office

Two FIOS hosts in Flower Mound

A FIOS host in Corinth (the source of the screenshot)

During all these tests, I would start and stop uploads to mediafire.com. From the office workstation, I would run simultaneous transfers from the FTP and HTTP server. IN every case, regardless of activity, the FTP and HTTP streams would stairstep down to 1.5-2Mbit. Stopping one transfer reduced my utilization by 200KB/s, with the remaining stream remaining constant, i.e. not accelerating to consume the now-free additional 200KB/s. When running the upload to mediafire, same result. When transferring to the Flower Mound FIOS hosts, they presented similar behavior, starting out fast, and stair-stepping to 200KB/s. Adding/removing transfers made no change in existing transfer speed or network utilization on my system. While the transfers were running, I made multiple copies across my local network to a laptop I have connected to the same gigabit switch here, and at no time did adding or removing that load change the 200KB/s transfers.

There were two or three outliers. During a transfer to one of the Flower Mound FIOS hosts, the stream started at 600KB/s (the remote is 5/2 service), then stair-stepped to 200KB/s, then after a period of time, stair-stepped back to 400KB/s, then 600KB/s. During one of the Mediafire.com uploads, I experienced similar behavior.

I had a 96.x.x.x IP since about December, but after attempting to configure the Actiontec for bridging, I was unable to DHCP a public address, requiring a call to support to force-release the IP. I now have a 71.x.x.x address, like I did when I first got the service in August.

This is all very weird, and there seems to be no significant rhyme or reason to the behavior. At this point, all I can surmise is that there is a bug in the firmware at the fiber termination point, or a poorly configured router at the CO.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20116064 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 21:12:15 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20115042 danclan : Its very likely that MERP is seeing normal server/workstation scaling due to latency on the wire. The BDP can change as latency changes and thus his speed out bound.

Also the server may initially burst and scale down accordingly. This is pretty common technique for server to use as optimization is not always throughly employed.

So i think he is seeing a pretty typical response from his workstation. Using a different transfer method/product would quite possibly yield better results.

and toss yet another wrinkle other monitoring/av/fw products could also be playing havoc so...with all these variables im not going to slam MERP for what he is seeing.

If I dismissed his claims out hand I didn't mean to give that impression.

If Verizon was actually throttling outbound I do think there would be a massive uproar from those using the service as it would be spotted rather quickly by those who use it heavily.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20115042 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:24:50 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113709 darcilicious :

said by NOCMan

:

Of course I do not abuse my connection.

But since there's no definition of "abuse", how can you know for sure? ;-)

Incidentially we tried downloading a HD movie from Apple onto our Apple TV and it moved at 300k for 3 hours.

I've never had full speed when downloading movies or songs from Apple/iTunes. The best real life test in my experience is using Usenet (from a real service provider, not Verizon's!) and opening all 10 connections. I have consistently maxed out my download connections (6mb when with Comcast, 15mb now with FiOS).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113709 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:49:08 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113663 NOCMan : I live in FM too and never saw that happening.

Of course I do not abuse my connection.

Incidentially we tried downloading a HD movie from Apple onto our Apple TV and it moved at 300k for 3 hours. Though I could run speed tests just fine. I sure hope it's not VZ mukcing with the connection.
--
Mac Chatter
»www.macchatter.net]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113663 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 14:44:02 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113171 Kannachii : alright. will do. and thank you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113171 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:30:52 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113110 birdfeedr :

said by Kannachii

:

what's a 96 block mean?

Some people pull a 96.xx.xx.xx IP when there router boots up. For instance, I am on 96.233.151.xx address. Sometimes on one of those addresses, websites load slowly if at all, speed tests are in the crapper, and it looks like it tends to be on the download side. Uploads are typically ok.

Not all 96. block addresses are the same. I have had problems in the past, which disappeared as soon as I got a 71. or 72. block address. But the one I am on now is just fine.

Some addresses are crap.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113110 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:19:48 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113098 darcilicious :

said by Kannachii

:

Hmm... I've run into that problem a few times,

Do you mean upload speed problems? If so, can you describe your set up in more detail? (e.g. your speed plan from Verizon, your OS, wireless or wired, etc).

but what is the actual physical distance for the blocks, and what's a 96 block mean?

We're talking about IP address blocks -- you are assigned a public IP address, usually starting with 71, 77, 96, etc. An IP address can look like: 96.123.234.12 for example. You can find yours here:
»/whois

And was verizon obligated to inform their customers? Because I only found out through this forum after testing my connection and seeing extremely below what it should have been.

I hope someone can answer my noob-ish questions, I thought I understood this stuff but I'm being confused.

Verizon rarely informs its customers of anything ;-)

As a new user of this site, you might want to start here:

»/tweaks

Read everything very carefully and follow the instructions very carefully and folks will be more than happy to help you troubleshoot your speed issues.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113098 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:16:57 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113056 Kannachii : Hmm... I've run into that problem a few times, but what is the actual physical distance for the blocks, and what's a 96 block mean? I'm sorry for these most likely noob question. And was verizon obligated to inform their customers? Because I only found out through this forum after testing my connection and seeing extremely below what it should have been.

I hope someone can answer my noob-ish questions, I thought I understood this stuff but I'm being confused.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20113056 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 13:09:23 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112681 darcilicious :

said by inajeep4

:

Although danclan is saying he sees no such throttling while merp has a pretty graph that shows the step down. hmmmm, the plot thickens.

Even merp has since stated he doesn't always see a step down. I suspect it was a temporary network glitch more than any kind of throttling on Verizon's part...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112681 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:12:48 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112627 birdfeedr :

said by inajeep4

:

Although danclan is saying he sees no such throttling while merp has a pretty graph that shows the step down. hmmmm, the plot thickens.

Until merp establishes a bit of a track record here in terms of technical credibility, I would tend to go with danclan's and darcilicious' statements, especially since they correspond to my own experience.

Until there is more credible evidence of VZ throttling bandwidth, I'd chalk it up to other network problems or conditions. There are problems that VZ has to work on and fix. Don't get me wrong. Maybe merp is on one o those infamous 96. address blocks.

That isn't throttling. That's something else.

I'll work with him to test a non-fios destination if he wants.

Edited 6 hours later to add: Youch! What an ass I can be! Merp needs some kind of "credibility" to post an observation? Who the hell am I to pose as some sort of leet azzhat? Sorry, merp, it was a temporary aberration. Usually, I'm happy to help solve problems, not create them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112627 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 12:05:34 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112431 Karl Bode : Response from Verizon:

quote:
Hi Karl,

This is not new language and has been in the TOS for some time now.

Obviously we have a responsibility to manage the network so that all
subscribers can use it. As traffic increases on the network, we also
are adding capacity. Our FiOS project is the most obvious example, but
we are also adding capacity in the backbone as we see more demand.

You are correct in saying that this clause simply covers cases of
extreme network abuse -- like denial of service attacks for example.

I think the language is just there to give them a legal advantage. They've been pretty clear that they aren't throttling or capping (for now, hopefully it stays that way).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112431 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:40:01 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112280 inajeep4 : It looks like the same thing that Comcast is doing. Traffic shaping and is misleading. It's to stop people from running web or other types of servers/services out of their homes as well as keeping the network healthy.

Although danclan is saying he sees no such throttling while merp has a pretty graph that shows the step down. hmmmm, the plot thickens.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20112280 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 11:19:56 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20111766 Karl Bode : Thanks.

3.7.1 You may not resell the Broadband Service, use it for
high volume purposes, or exceed the bandwidth usage limitations that Verizon may establish from time to time for the Service.

I'm guessing this is just a legal C.Y.A. in cases of extreme network abuse, but I'm currently trying to confirm with Verizon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20111766 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 09:44:18 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20111303 GeekNJ :

said by Karl Bode

:

Are we sure this is a new TOS change?

Here's the email I received:

quote:
Effective March 4, 2008 - Important Information Regarding Replacement Of Your Verizon Internet Access Service Terms Of Service

Effective March 4, 2008, the current Verizon Internet Access Service Terms of Service will be replaced by a revised and reordered set of terms and conditions entitled Verizon Online Terms of Service (“VOL Terms”). The VOL Terms are designed to help our subscribers locate terms of interest relating to Verizon Online’s Internet access and other products and services, and to present the service terms and acceptable use policy in a format that is easy to follow. Beginning on March 4, 2008, the VOL Terms will govern your rights and obligations, and ours, with respect to your use of the services we offer.

Described below are some of the changes reflected in the VOL Terms. However, we recommend that you review the entire VOL Terms to familiarize yourself with them. Your continued use of your Verizon Online Services after the above effective date will constitute your agreement to the VOL Terms.

The VOL Terms can be accessed by clicking on the "Policies and Terms of Service" link (www2.verizon.net/policies) at the bottom of any page of our Website.

Here is an overview of some of the changes reflected in the VOL Terms:

1. Reordered and Consolidated Provisions. We have consolidated and reordered a number of sections to put certain information at the beginning of the VOL Terms. These changes involve important terms like the duration and methods for accepting the VOL Terms, provisions allowing for revisions to the VOL Terms, account use and responsibilities, service availability and changes to the services we offer.

2. Restated Acceptable Use Policy (AUP). We have streamlined our Acceptable Use Policy, which now consists of the following four sections: General Policy, Specific Examples of AUP Violations, Usenet Policy and Posting Restrictions, and Copyright Infringement /Repeat Infringer Policy. The AUP is set out in Attachment A to the VOL Terms.

3. New Attachment B, Additional Services Terms. We have added a new Attachment B that provides, in one place, product-specific terms and conditions that pertain to the following services: Personal Web Space and Verizon Online Backup & Sharing, Email and Email Messaging Service, Verizon Internet Security Suite and Verizon Games on Demand.

Again, please take time to review the VOL Terms. Thank you for being a Verizon Online customer.

Verizon Online

--
Tweaked your connection? | Mail Parse | Speed Converter]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20111303 Wed, 05 Mar 2008 07:09:37 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20109171 birdfeedr : With a 20/5 connection wired with Win2K to a non-fios connected ftp, I had some variability, but essentially it was 20 minutes of 4.6Mbps upload before I cancelled the transfer. At its slowest it was 3.6, fastest at 4.9Mbps.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20109171 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 20:18:20 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20109058 merp :

said by darcilicious

:

On my 15/15 connection over wireless (Vista), I got a nearly constant 10mb/s upload over ftp to a non-FiOS host of a 500MB file.

Interesting! I just completed a series of tests that performed similarly, so whatever was cutting me back earlier seems to have gone away. It makes me wonder if what's going on is extremely high utilization during the day. The most suspicious part of this is the hard plateaus. It doesn't make any sense, unless there are literally only four bandwidth tiers in the aggregation router, being 2, 5, 8, and 15 Mbit, the point being that when a channel saturates, it kicks all the ONTs on the saturated segment down one notch to make room. I have no idea how we'd verify this without someone literally walking to all their neighbors for some combined testing, but it would make for an interesting experiment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20109058 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:59:39 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108902 darcilicious : On my 15/15 connection over wireless (Vista), I got a nearly constant 10mb/s upload over ftp to a non-FiOS host of a 500MB file.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108902 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:31:43 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108864 merp : Yep, tested against three FIOS clients, two FTP clients, and mediafire.com]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108864 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:24:44 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108791 birdfeedr :

said by KCrimson

:

What is your maximum upstream throughput?

He says 15Mbit down to 8Mbit down to 5Mbit down to 2Mbit/s holding until connection closes, and stays for 15 or 20 minutes.

Testing briefly on a 5Mb/s upload to my ftp site showed a bit of a slowdown, maybe a couple of percent) but nothing stepped like merp's performance.

I'll do a test to show a 1 GB upload to see actual performance in graphic form.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108791 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:11:57 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108752 KCrimson : Have you checked this against MULTIPLE remote upstream targets, and not just your own (forinstance) Usnet provider?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108752 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 19:06:34 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108508 merp : Whoops, just realized I misspoke. You only get about 15-20MB of upload before the speed drops, or about 10-20 seconds worth.

/forgot the zeros
//not enough sleep]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108508 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:25:23 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108393 KCrimson : What is your maximum upstream throughput? I don't see why MERP would post such detailed observations without some data to back it up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108393 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:03:39 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108386 merp : Here it is:

It's been pretty consistent. The breakpoints are pretty consistent as well, within ~25Kbit of each other.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108386 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 18:02:24 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108371 danclan : well i just finished uploading 3 large files and had no issues; moved 3- 1GB files and 1 500MB and it never wavered..

also what QOS are you referring to in the above post...the actiontec? or verizon at the CO? as i know of many a user who has maxed their connection with no issues for the past few months...both in and out with no issues]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108371 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:59:34 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108361 KCrimson : He never mentioned downloading, he mentioned UPSTEAM bandwidth.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108361 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:58:06 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108356 danclan : Verizon has never throttled anything ever

I can dl from servers that do not scale back at full 30mb for over an hour with no issues.

so if you are seeing throttling its due to server side and not verizon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108356 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:56:47 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108326 KCrimson : If the upstream bandwidth is stepped down to 2 Mb/sec continuously after several minutes of uploading, then the Verizon commercials advertising upload bandwidth of 20X cable are false and misleading. Someone should take Verizon to task.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108326 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:51:20 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108316 birdfeedr :

said by merp

:

I've got a very pretty graph demonstrating exactly that.

Would you care to post it for others to see?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108316 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:50:18 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108195 merp : streams from the Internet to you (downloads) don't get hit until the local loop (central office) maxes out. For uploads, you get to send at the 15Mbit rate for the first 10-20MB, at which point it starts to step down your upload rate.

I've got a very pretty graph demonstrating exactly that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108195 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:29:39 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108188 MrSpock29 : Wait, I thought with fios your downloads didn't matter since it was FTTH. You mean to tell me the advertised speeds are not steady state, but can get throttled back during a large download?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108188 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:27:36 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108167 merp : Absolutely not. I just did extensive (5+ hours) of testing between multiple hosts, and determined the situation above. You get to move about 15-20MB between yourself and any given host, at which point it cuts you off at the knees. If you like, I can open up a small window of opportunity for anyone who likes to test this theory.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108167 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:25:05 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108154 Technogeez : Pure supposition, but "high volume" looks like they're after those who pass multi-gigabytes in large files using spread-bandwidth techniques.

You know who you are.
--
Read your contract and TOS before signing anything.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108154 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:21:32 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108117 anon : Apparently, "high volume" is ten seconds of maximum upload bandwidth per connection. For example, I can get 15Mbit for ten seconds to an external host, at which point the system QoS's that connection to 8Mbit for five seconds, the 5Mbit for five seconds, then 2Mbit until the connection closes. The system holds this setting for fifteen to twenty minutes after all traffic stops.

If I start another session with a different external host, I get another ten seconds of maximum upload performance, and then the connection degrades as described above.

For transfers to other FIOS customers, I get about thirty seconds of maximum performance before it immediately degrades to 2Mbit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20108117 Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:14:18 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20098820 Karl Bode : Are we sure this is a new TOS change?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20098820 Mon, 03 Mar 2008 08:37:45 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093936 jonez : I would think that this could possibly apply to running applications in a way similar to running a server that consume a lot of bandwidth 24/7.

One could twist words and say that an arbitrary application running 24/7 and consumes bandwidth is not technically a server (usenet client for example) and try to get away with it, so maybe this is to cover that approach.
--
My diet is highly composed of FIBER! 20mbps/20mbps
Massachusetts FIOS Map]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093936 Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:56:00 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093786 TampaJim : To me, saying you can't use the service for "high volume purposes" is kind of like telling someone not to go outside and breathe a lot of air.

Very open for interpretation, so actually I'd think from a legal standpoint, they would be tasked to quantify "high volume purposes" if push came to shove. Not sure how they do that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093786 Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:17:48 EDT Re: New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093756 buckingham : I believe that language was used specifically in a legal sense to provide VZ with "flexibility in interpretation" on their part. You will rarely fine a TOS that is slanted in the consumer's favor.

I suspect that "high volume purposes" means when one is obviously pegging their bandwidth usage, pedal to the metal, all the time which can disrupt the usage of others.

The other part basically says they can change the rules. Which they can...without notifying you in advance. Flexibility.

I am not saying that I necessarily agree with this business practice, however...I do think that the world would be a better place when things are spelled out more clearly for things like this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093756 Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:07:15 EDT New TOS / AUP: What's "high volume purposes"? http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093537 nekote : In regards to the new Verizon TOS / AUP:

3.7.1 You may not resell the Broadband Service, use it for
high volume purposes, or exceed the bandwidth usage limitations that Verizon may establish from time to time for the Service.

What the heck are "high volume purposes"?

And, oh yea, what are the "bandwidth limitations" that are *currently* in effect?
Or may be established from "time to time" ??

There ever gonna' be a more open, transparent, plainly worded bandwidth policy?
Instead of this interminable "unlimited" word non-policy?
--
Government is like fire - a dangerous servant and a fearful master - George Washington

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all other forms of government. - Winston Churchill]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20093537 Sun, 02 Mar 2008 07:39:33 EDT