|
 |
 | 
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
 ·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by gatorkram  :Was a nice try though, what you said. To bad it's not true. So based on your one single example you are going to conclude that all the information spewed by these links is false?
What makes you think government-mandated maps will be any more accurate?
For most people I know, these websites were a good thing, they verified broadband availability prior to moving.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | Hofftek
Premium
join:2002-07-22
Derby, KS
| Re: Point Has Merit said by gatorkram :What makes you think government-mandated maps will be any more accurate? It has been my experience the government does very little in respect to things that have come from those providing money to their coffers. With that said I believe the maps will be untouched and therefore only as accurate as the info provided by the ISP's | |
|
| | 
marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by pnh102 :What makes you think government-mandated maps will be any more accurate? Because information for government maps must, by federal law, conform to FDGC standards for metadata and placing purposefully misleading accuracy statements in that metadata would then open up the data providers to lawsuit if those data are the basis for incorrect decisions.
Right now, Verizon makes no guarantee to their accuracy and has no liability if the accuracy of their mappings are incorrect.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
|
| | 
Alexodia
| Verizon makes it impossible to see weather they will give you service without a call. Same with Earthlink. without a phone number they dont pull anything up. and anything built in last 15 years isnt registered on either site. so i think your statement is inaccurate. | |
|
riturno
join:2004-04-20
Dallas, TX | Assuming that carriers already provide this information publicly, what is then the harm of providing it in an aggregated fashion?
As you may have already noted, Comcast was not on your link list. In fact, no cable company was. | |
|
|
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by riturno :Assuming that carriers already provide this information publicly, what is then the harm of providing it in an aggregated fashion? If an ISP wishes to do so on its own then that is fine. I just don't see it as being the government's business to force them to provide this information.
said by riturno :As you may have already noted, Comcast was not on your link list. In fact, no cable company was. Comcast does have an address entry form on its main page... but its website sucks in general, which is one of the reasons I decided not to list it. However, there is nothing stopping people from calling them to see if service is available.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
|
|
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by PhoenixDown :they are being asked to provide the exact locations where they can, or can not, provide residential broadband services. People can verify broadband availability on their own. They do not need the government to do it for them.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | |
| | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by PhoenixDown :The people are stating that broadband IS NOT available and want to build out municipal networks. Well if these people know that they cannot get broadband, then what is the point of the map telling them what they already know? What is stopping them from acting as private citizens to build their own network?
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | | | thevorpal
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA
| Re: Point Has Merit Because the data is already there and available to be parsed. It would cost them peanuts to provide this information so that local governments could actually decide what services are being provided to their community.
Or should the governments have every person sit down, enter in their address to these websites, let it calculate, and then enter it into their own database.
Its a waste of freaking money to have the information sitting there unused and intentionally hidden. | |
|
| | | | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by thevorpal :Or should the governments have every person sit down, enter in their address to these websites, let it calculate, and then enter it into their own database. Here's a better idea.
Let the people who really care about this information sit at their keyboards and man the phones and go through every address to find it.
If they find problems or discrepancies with the information, they can make every attempt to resolve it themselves.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | | | | | thevorpal
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA | Re: Point Has Merit No, that's just really stupid. | |
|
| | | |
Alexodia
| said by pnh102 :said by PhoenixDown :The people are stating that broadband IS NOT available and want to build out municipal networks. Well if these people know that they cannot get broadband, then what is the point of the map telling them what they already know? What is stopping them from acting as private citizens to build their own network? Well most private citizens are middle class and dont have the money the telecos have. the Telecos take all this money and never spend it which ends up lining the pockets of the rich private citzens rather than expanding their networks. | |
|
| | |
| | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by woody7 :I don't see why there can't be a map of availability for the consumer... That isn't a good argument for forcing ISPs to make them available. As I've stated before, consumers can already find out if a given address is serviceable.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | | | 
woody7
Premium
join:2000-10-13
Torrance, CA
 ·EarthLink
·DSL EXTREME
| Re: Point Has Merit I think that it is valid,as consumers find on some sites they have to sift through piles of crap to get the answer they need, and it is ambiguous at best. I bet if some private party did just that, the uproar from the cablecos and even telcos would be deafening. The only conceivable reason that they don't want this info easily available is for the reasons that others have stated.It wouldn't paint them in a good light. Peace
--
BlooMe | |
|
| | | | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by woody7 :The only conceivable reason that they don't want this info easily available is for the reasons that others have stated. But if the information was never meant to be available why would ISPs publish websites where you can perform address lookups for various services offered?
We could look at this from the phone angle as well... let's say I am moving. I could call whatever cable company services the area to which I plan to move and ask "Do you offer High Speed Internet at my address?" If the cable companies were keeping deployment information a secret, then they would tell me that they could not help me. Of course, that scenario is ludicrous, and it shows that the information is already available.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | | | | | Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| Re: Point Has Merit Your lack of any concern for anything beyond the protection of providers is quite funny.
Since they have all this information available, why can't they simply provide it as public information so that others can easily access it?
You can't claim it is for "competitive" reasons as any "competitor" already knows where the other serves.
Besides, I would say it is public information for 2 reasons: 1.) They are a publicly traded company 2.) They are using public right aways. | |
|
| |
asdfdfdfdfdf
@Level3.net
| The point isn't to have this data so that individuals can determine if they can get service while not having to go through the trouble of checking for themselves, i.e. having the government find out for them.
It is to determine the country's actual state of communications deployment so that intelligent public policy can be developed. | |
|
| |
work
@charter.com
| right, so that general purpose public tool has the entire database of where (for DSL for instance) the CO is, exactly how many wire feet are between it and the CO, the condition of hte lines between the requestor and the nearest CO wiht a DSLAM, and all the other technical data required to make a good solid "yes" or "no" as to the availablity of DSL?
..if you think it does, then you're wrong, very, very, very, wrong.
all that does is let you know if it's likely to work. all the rest of the technical data is not available until the provisioning department of the (I/C)LEC of your choice for DSL goes to have whomever is providing the DSL service start to provision the circuit. and even then, it's still posssible that even though the provisioning department gets the circuit provisioned, you can still end up with the lines between A and B not being able to support the speeds requested (and theoretically possible for the DSL circuit) and the whole thing gets deemed TNF.
yep.
people can get ALL that info RIGHT from the public checks, which most of (memory serving) say somewhere on them that just because the site says it's available at your location, it's not 100% for certain that you can get the service you're asking about. | |
|
marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| said by pnh102 :The ISPs are right. This bill is not needed. No company should have to disclose publicly where its main vulnerabilities are located. And yet product pipelines, including natural gas and oil, have to disclose their locations. | |
|
|
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by marigolds :And yet product pipelines, including natural gas and oil, have to disclose their locations. So do ISPs. That's why this bill is not needed.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| |
marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Point Has Merit said by pnh102 :said by marigolds :And yet product pipelines, including natural gas and oil, have to disclose their locations. So do ISPs. That's why this bill is not needed. They do? Where? I have yet to find the spatial database with that information.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
|
| | | |
| | | |
marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Point Has Merit None of those are spatial databases.
Zero.
Useless for spatial analysis.
Completely useless for network analysis.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
|
| | | | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by marigolds :None of those are spatial databases. Zero. Useless for spatial analysis. Completely useless for network analysis. Again, the information is there. It may not be in a convenient form, but it is there. Since most customers are more than capable of determining broadband availability on their own, I see no need for a government mandate.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | | | | |
marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Point Has Merit said by pnh102 :said by marigolds :None of those are spatial databases. Zero. Useless for spatial analysis. Completely useless for network analysis. Again, the information is there. It may not be in a convenient form, but it is there. Since most customers are more than capable of determining broadband availability on their own, I see no need for a government mandate. No, it is not there in any form.
If I type in 7900 Forsyth Blvd, Clayton, MO, there is no indication of where that is according to the records of that company. They could consider that to be the bottom floor of the northmost building on that lot. They could consider that to the be the 8th floor of the southeast building. They might consider that to be part of the city of Clayton, or part of unincorporated St Louis County. They might mean the intersection of Forsyth and Central or the intersection of Forsyth and Meramac.
Which is it? Who knows. The companies are not going to say because that would be a statement of accuracy which they will not make.
So, where is the spatial database? Where is the record source that says whether or not there is service at 38.650025 North, 90.339069 W in NAD83 (and translate that relative to the correct HARN State Plane System for survey use)?
Because it is certainly not available in any of the links you provide, and without it you cannot map that broadband availability information.
This is not just about whether or not a consumer can find if they have service, it is about relevant agencies being able to conduct appropriate mapping and spatial analysis necessary for national security and emergency management.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
|
wentlanc
You Can't Fix Dumb..
join:2003-07-30
Maineville, OH
| said by pnh102 :The ISPs are right. This bill is not needed. No company should have to disclose publicly where its main vulnerabilities are located. We've already shown that most ISPs will tell customers whether or not they provide service to a particular address: No vulnerabilities have been requested. This is about actual penetration. And we're talking about broadband to the house, not corporate America to our pockets. But you just keep on fear mongering the world to try to hold on to your fading point. | |
|
|
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by wentlanc :No vulnerabilities have been requested. This is about actual penetration. And we're talking about broadband to the house, not corporate America to our pockets. But you just keep on fear mongering the world to try to hold on to your fading point. Again, the information is already out there if you want it. An act of Congress is not needed.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| | thevorpal
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA | Re: Point Has Merit So when I go to the city planning meeting, what information should I bring from this 'available' information. | |
|
disc
join:2005-12-31
Raleigh, NC
| said by pnh102 :Anyone who is interested in determining service availability can use these forms to see if where they will be living can receive service. There is no need for an Act of Congress here. Good thing we're forcing not only the government to go through hoops to get this data, but now the terrorists too. If they're limited to the links you provided, they'll have to work forever to find out where our last-mile infrastructure has poor investment (sorry, I mean vulnerabilities that would expose copper loops to attack).
The terrorist play-book is full of things like this: seek out vulnerabilities in last-mile infrastructure, seek out vulnerabilities in newspaper delivery routes, etc. Imagine the untold damage they could do with that information. | |
|
|
See 6 replies to this post |
|
nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
·Comcast
| I know you are not, but I have to ask: are you really this dumb?
I'm much more sure you are being willingly obtuse.
the data is not to benefit individuals seeking to know if they can get broadband service at a certain location. the data is to inform counties, cities, states, the govt as to where broadband is available and where it is not.
with this information, an accurate picture of the state of broadband deployment can be determined. this will help the policies and planning of those entities that give a shit about broadband deployment and think having it is important to their well being.
no incumbent or their representative have given any valid reason not to disclose this information.
except of course, to protect us from the terrorists | |
|
|
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by nasadude :I know you are not, but I have to ask: are you really this dumb? Are you incapable of clicking on links and typing into webforms?
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
| |
marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| Re: Point Has Merit said by pnh102 :Are you incapable of clicking on links and typing into webforms? And where is Verizon getting the addressing information that it is using for this database? What is the geocode for this addressing information, against what datum, using what projection, to what horizontal accuracy?
When you put a map in google, it makes certain assumptions in terms of the geocode, datum, projection, and horizontal accuracy. These assumptions look okay on google maps, but would not work for many other mapping applications and no other spatial analysis applications.
Without this information, it is impossible to use the results of entering addresses into the webforms.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher | |
|
| | |
pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| Re: Point Has Merit said by marigolds :When you put a map in google, it makes certain assumptions in terms of the geocode, datum, projection, and horizontal accuracy. These assumptions look okay on google maps, but would not work for many other mapping applications and no other spatial analysis applications. Heh.
Google Maps has its own issues with out of date geocoding data. I would not assume for a second that they are 100% accurate in all situations.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! | |
|
moven
join:2008-02-25
Huntsville, TX
| The ISPs are right. This bill is not needed. No company should have to disclose publicly where its main vulnerabilities are located.
We've already shown that most ISPs will tell customers whether or not they provide service to a particular address:
AT&T DSL lookup by address:
Oh, yeah, ATT works well. This stupid program can not even find my address!!
Sure would like someone to tell them to cut loose. Then maybe they would finish running their DSL the last few yards to my home. | |
|
|
|
|
|
·
