Alexodia
| reply to pnh102
Re: Point Has Merit
said by pnh102  :said by PhoenixDown :The people are stating that broadband IS NOT available and want to build out municipal networks. Well if these people know that they cannot get broadband, then what is the point of the map telling them what they already know? What is stopping them from acting as private citizens to build their own network? Well most private citizens are middle class and dont have the money the telecos have. the Telecos take all this money and never spend it which ends up lining the pockets of the rich private citzens rather than expanding their networks. |
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Alexodia
| reply to pnh102
Verizon makes it impossible to see weather they will give you service without a call. Same with Earthlink. without a phone number they dont pull anything up. and anything built in last 15 years isnt registered on either site. so i think your statement is inaccurate. |
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work
@charter.com
| reply to pnh102
right, so that general purpose public tool has the entire database of where (for DSL for instance) the CO is, exactly how many wire feet are between it and the CO, the condition of hte lines between the requestor and the nearest CO wiht a DSLAM, and all the other technical data required to make a good solid "yes" or "no" as to the availablity of DSL?
..if you think it does, then you're wrong, very, very, very, wrong.
all that does is let you know if it's likely to work. all the rest of the technical data is not available until the provisioning department of the (I/C)LEC of your choice for DSL goes to have whomever is providing the DSL service start to provision the circuit. and even then, it's still posssible that even though the provisioning department gets the circuit provisioned, you can still end up with the lines between A and B not being able to support the speeds requested (and theoretically possible for the DSL circuit) and the whole thing gets deemed TNF.
yep.
people can get ALL that info RIGHT from the public checks, which most of (memory serving) say somewhere on them that just because the site says it's available at your location, it's not 100% for certain that you can get the service you're asking about. |
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asdfdfdfdfdf
@Level3.net
| reply to pnh102
The point isn't to have this data so that individuals can determine if they can get service while not having to go through the trouble of checking for themselves, i.e. having the government find out for them.
It is to determine the country's actual state of communications deployment so that intelligent public policy can be developed. |
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thevorpal
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA | reply to pnh102
No, that's just really stupid. |
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KrK
Heavy Artillery For The Little Guy
Premium
join:2000-01-17
Tulsa, OK
 ·AT&T Yahoo
·AT&T DSL Service
 ·Cox HSI
·AT&T Southwest
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :No company should have to disclose publicly where its main vulnerabilities are located. They already do, though. Just see where the office of the CEO is, and where the board of directors meet. There's their main vulnerabilities and weaknesses. 
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!) |
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Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| reply to pnh102
Your lack of any concern for anything beyond the protection of providers is quite funny.
Since they have all this information available, why can't they simply provide it as public information so that others can easily access it?
You can't claim it is for "competitive" reasons as any "competitor" already knows where the other serves.
Besides, I would say it is public information for 2 reasons: 1.) They are a publicly traded company 2.) They are using public right aways. |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :said by marigolds :None of those are spatial databases. Zero. Useless for spatial analysis. Completely useless for network analysis. Again, the information is there. It may not be in a convenient form, but it is there. Since most customers are more than capable of determining broadband availability on their own, I see no need for a government mandate. No, it is not there in any form.
If I type in 7900 Forsyth Blvd, Clayton, MO, there is no indication of where that is according to the records of that company. They could consider that to be the bottom floor of the northmost building on that lot. They could consider that to the be the 8th floor of the southeast building. They might consider that to be part of the city of Clayton, or part of unincorporated St Louis County. They might mean the intersection of Forsyth and Central or the intersection of Forsyth and Meramac.
Which is it? Who knows. The companies are not going to say because that would be a statement of accuracy which they will not make.
So, where is the spatial database? Where is the record source that says whether or not there is service at 38.650025 North, 90.339069 W in NAD83 (and translate that relative to the correct HARN State Plane System for survey use)?
Because it is certainly not available in any of the links you provide, and without it you cannot map that broadband availability information.
This is not just about whether or not a consumer can find if they have service, it is about relevant agencies being able to conduct appropriate mapping and spatial analysis necessary for national security and emergency management.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :said by marigolds :You have no clue. High speed internet is essential for emergency response and heavily used during disasters. Heh. All I can say to you is this... thank God for amateur radio operators. Ham radio cannot transmit aerial imagery or lidar at any reasonable rate (it's possible since there is an ip over ham protocol, but satellite is much more reasonable). Nor can it transmit disaster assessment data at anything resembling a reasonable rate (you can just read the assessment forms over the radio... but again, very slow).
Basically, in the event of a widespread disaster, the relevant information is assembled on support intranets in impact resistance facilities. The information is then relayed to the nearest intact high speed internet facility for transmission to FEMA and the relevant state agencies.
I won't get into how the aerials and lidar are involved since that's a lot more complicated.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :None of those are spatial databases. Zero. Useless for spatial analysis. Completely useless for network analysis. Again, the information is there. It may not be in a convenient form, but it is there. Since most customers are more than capable of determining broadband availability on their own, I see no need for a government mandate.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :You have no clue. High speed internet is essential for emergency response and heavily used during disasters. Heh.
All I can say to you is this... thank God for amateur radio operators.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :Now that's a silly argument. High Speed Internet is a luxury service, not something to be relied upon in the event of a disaster. You have no clue. High speed internet is essential for emergency response and heavily used during disasters. |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
None of those are spatial databases.
Zero.
Useless for spatial analysis.
Completely useless for network analysis.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :When you put a map in google, it makes certain assumptions in terms of the geocode, datum, projection, and horizontal accuracy. These assumptions look okay on google maps, but would not work for many other mapping applications and no other spatial analysis applications. Heh.
Google Maps has its own issues with out of date geocoding data. I would not assume for a second that they are 100% accurate in all situations.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to woody7
said by woody7 :The only conceivable reason that they don't want this info easily available is for the reasons that others have stated. But if the information was never meant to be available why would ISPs publish websites where you can perform address lookups for various services offered?
We could look at this from the phone angle as well... let's say I am moving. I could call whatever cable company services the area to which I plan to move and ask "Do you offer High Speed Internet at my address?" If the cable companies were keeping deployment information a secret, then they would tell me that they could not help me. Of course, that scenario is ludicrous, and it shows that the information is already available.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :For example, if I wanted to map out the verizon deployment in this county to determine the available communications grid in the event of a disaster... Now that's a silly argument. High Speed Internet is a luxury service, not something to be relied upon in the event of a disaster.
As I've shown, again, people do not need the government to help them find out where broadband is or is not available. The resources are there, and people can make use of them already.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :Where? I have yet to find the spatial database with that information. Here we go again:
FIOS lookup by address: »www22.verizon.com/fiosforhome/ch···ntry.asp
Verizon DSL lookup by address: »www22.verizon.com/content/consum···ress.htm
AT&T DSL lookup by address:
»https://swot.sbc.com/swot/canIOrderOnlin···ocessDSL
QWest DSL lookup by address:
»www.qwest.com/residential/intern···ual.html
I decided to bother with looking up the links for Cable ISPs as well as some people had griped that I had missed that. I regret the omission.
Cox - »https://secure.cox.com/service/offers/av···ces.aspx
Comcast - (FINALLY) »https://www.comcast.com/Localization/Loc···x&area=6
Time Warner's websites are state specific.
It took me about 10 minutes to compile this list. Anyone else who is interested is more than welcome to go to these websites and knock themselves out.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to thevorpal
said by thevorpal :Or should the governments have every person sit down, enter in their address to these websites, let it calculate, and then enter it into their own database. Here's a better idea.
Let the people who really care about this information sit at their keyboards and man the phones and go through every address to find it.
If they find problems or discrepancies with the information, they can make every attempt to resolve it themselves.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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moven
join:2008-02-25
Huntsville, TX
| reply to pnh102
The ISPs are right. This bill is not needed. No company should have to disclose publicly where its main vulnerabilities are located.
We've already shown that most ISPs will tell customers whether or not they provide service to a particular address:
AT&T DSL lookup by address:
Oh, yeah, ATT works well. This stupid program can not even find my address!!
Sure would like someone to tell them to cut loose. Then maybe they would finish running their DSL the last few yards to my home. |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :Are you incapable of clicking on links and typing into webforms? And where is Verizon getting the addressing information that it is using for this database? What is the geocode for this addressing information, against what datum, using what projection, to what horizontal accuracy?
When you put a map in google, it makes certain assumptions in terms of the geocode, datum, projection, and horizontal accuracy. These assumptions look okay on google maps, but would not work for many other mapping applications and no other spatial analysis applications.
Without this information, it is impossible to use the results of entering addresses into the webforms.
--
ISCABBS - the oldest and largest BBS on the Internet
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com
Professional Geographer
Geographic Information Science researcher |
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