marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
Re: Point Has Merit
said by pnh102  :said by disc :If they're limited to the links you provided, they'll have to work forever to find out where our last-mile infrastructure has poor investment (sorry, I mean vulnerabilities that would expose copper loops to attack). If people think this is that important, then there is nothing stopping them from keying in all these requests manually and making their own map. Yes, there is.
Check out the copyright notice on those links. And more importantly, the disclaimer of liability.
"VERIZON AND ITS AFFILIATES DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, REPRESENTATIONS OR ENDORSEMENTS, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, WITH REGARD TO THE INFORMATION ACCESSED FROM, OR VIA, THIS SERVER OR THE INTERNET, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NONINFRINGEMENT. VERIZON DOES NOT ASSUME ANY LEGAL LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ACCURACY, COMPLETENESS, OR USEFULNESS OF ANY INFORMATION, APPARATUS, PRODUCT OR PROCESS DISCLOSED ON THE SERVER OR OTHER MATERIAL ACCESSIBLE FROM THE SERVER. IN NO EVENT SHALL VERIZON BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER RESULTING FROM LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, NEGLIGENCE OR OTHER TORTIOUS ACTION, ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THE INFORMATION ON THIS SERVER OR THE INTERNET GENERALLY."
In other words, there is no guarantee of accuracy, much less a statement of accuracy. For example, if I wanted to map out the verizon deployment in this county to determine the available communications grid in the event of a disaster... I could not use the data from that link (and according to Verizon's copyright notice, they could bar me from using that data in such a manner anyway).
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :What makes you think government-mandated maps will be any more accurate? Because information for government maps must, by federal law, conform to FDGC standards for metadata and placing purposefully misleading accuracy statements in that metadata would then open up the data providers to lawsuit if those data are the basis for incorrect decisions.
Right now, Verizon makes no guarantee to their accuracy and has no liability if the accuracy of their mappings are incorrect.
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nasadude
join:2001-10-05
Rockville, MD
 ·Comcast
| reply to pnh102
I know you are not, but I have to ask: are you really this dumb?
I'm much more sure you are being willingly obtuse.
the data is not to benefit individuals seeking to know if they can get broadband service at a certain location. the data is to inform counties, cities, states, the govt as to where broadband is available and where it is not.
with this information, an accurate picture of the state of broadband deployment can be determined. this will help the policies and planning of those entities that give a shit about broadband deployment and think having it is important to their well being.
no incumbent or their representative have given any valid reason not to disclose this information.
except of course, to protect us from the terrorists |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by nasadude :I know you are not, but I have to ask: are you really this dumb? Are you incapable of clicking on links and typing into webforms?
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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thevorpal
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA
| reply to pnh102
Because the data is already there and available to be parsed. It would cost them peanuts to provide this information so that local governments could actually decide what services are being provided to their community.
Or should the governments have every person sit down, enter in their address to these websites, let it calculate, and then enter it into their own database.
Its a waste of freaking money to have the information sitting there unused and intentionally hidden. |
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thevorpal
join:2007-11-16
Alexandria, VA | reply to pnh102
So when I go to the city planning meeting, what information should I bring from this 'available' information. |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :Are you incapable of clicking on links and typing into webforms? And where is Verizon getting the addressing information that it is using for this database? What is the geocode for this addressing information, against what datum, using what projection, to what horizontal accuracy?
When you put a map in google, it makes certain assumptions in terms of the geocode, datum, projection, and horizontal accuracy. These assumptions look okay on google maps, but would not work for many other mapping applications and no other spatial analysis applications.
Without this information, it is impossible to use the results of entering addresses into the webforms.
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moven
join:2008-02-25
Huntsville, TX
| reply to pnh102
The ISPs are right. This bill is not needed. No company should have to disclose publicly where its main vulnerabilities are located.
We've already shown that most ISPs will tell customers whether or not they provide service to a particular address:
AT&T DSL lookup by address:
Oh, yeah, ATT works well. This stupid program can not even find my address!!
Sure would like someone to tell them to cut loose. Then maybe they would finish running their DSL the last few yards to my home. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to thevorpal
said by thevorpal :Or should the governments have every person sit down, enter in their address to these websites, let it calculate, and then enter it into their own database. Here's a better idea.
Let the people who really care about this information sit at their keyboards and man the phones and go through every address to find it.
If they find problems or discrepancies with the information, they can make every attempt to resolve it themselves.
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :Where? I have yet to find the spatial database with that information. Here we go again:
FIOS lookup by address: »www22.verizon.com/fiosforhome/ch···ntry.asp
Verizon DSL lookup by address: »www22.verizon.com/content/consum···ress.htm
AT&T DSL lookup by address:
»https://swot.sbc.com/swot/canIOrderOnlin···ocessDSL
QWest DSL lookup by address:
»www.qwest.com/residential/intern···ual.html
I decided to bother with looking up the links for Cable ISPs as well as some people had griped that I had missed that. I regret the omission.
Cox - »https://secure.cox.com/service/offers/av···ces.aspx
Comcast - (FINALLY) »https://www.comcast.com/Localization/Loc···x&area=6
Time Warner's websites are state specific.
It took me about 10 minutes to compile this list. Anyone else who is interested is more than welcome to go to these websites and knock themselves out.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :For example, if I wanted to map out the verizon deployment in this county to determine the available communications grid in the event of a disaster... Now that's a silly argument. High Speed Internet is a luxury service, not something to be relied upon in the event of a disaster.
As I've shown, again, people do not need the government to help them find out where broadband is or is not available. The resources are there, and people can make use of them already.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to woody7
said by woody7 :The only conceivable reason that they don't want this info easily available is for the reasons that others have stated. But if the information was never meant to be available why would ISPs publish websites where you can perform address lookups for various services offered?
We could look at this from the phone angle as well... let's say I am moving. I could call whatever cable company services the area to which I plan to move and ask "Do you offer High Speed Internet at my address?" If the cable companies were keeping deployment information a secret, then they would tell me that they could not help me. Of course, that scenario is ludicrous, and it shows that the information is already available.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :When you put a map in google, it makes certain assumptions in terms of the geocode, datum, projection, and horizontal accuracy. These assumptions look okay on google maps, but would not work for many other mapping applications and no other spatial analysis applications. Heh.
Google Maps has its own issues with out of date geocoding data. I would not assume for a second that they are 100% accurate in all situations.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
None of those are spatial databases.
Zero.
Useless for spatial analysis.
Completely useless for network analysis.
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :Now that's a silly argument. High Speed Internet is a luxury service, not something to be relied upon in the event of a disaster. You have no clue. High speed internet is essential for emergency response and heavily used during disasters. |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| said by marigolds :You have no clue. High speed internet is essential for emergency response and heavily used during disasters. Heh.
All I can say to you is this... thank God for amateur radio operators.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast
| reply to marigolds
said by marigolds :None of those are spatial databases. Zero. Useless for spatial analysis. Completely useless for network analysis. Again, the information is there. It may not be in a convenient form, but it is there. Since most customers are more than capable of determining broadband availability on their own, I see no need for a government mandate.
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This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate! |
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :said by marigolds :You have no clue. High speed internet is essential for emergency response and heavily used during disasters. Heh. All I can say to you is this... thank God for amateur radio operators. Ham radio cannot transmit aerial imagery or lidar at any reasonable rate (it's possible since there is an ip over ham protocol, but satellite is much more reasonable). Nor can it transmit disaster assessment data at anything resembling a reasonable rate (you can just read the assessment forms over the radio... but again, very slow).
Basically, in the event of a widespread disaster, the relevant information is assembled on support intranets in impact resistance facilities. The information is then relayed to the nearest intact high speed internet facility for transmission to FEMA and the relevant state agencies.
I won't get into how the aerials and lidar are involved since that's a lot more complicated.
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marigolds
Gainfully employed, finally
Premium,MVM
join:2002-05-13
Saint Louis, MO
| reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 :said by marigolds :None of those are spatial databases. Zero. Useless for spatial analysis. Completely useless for network analysis. Again, the information is there. It may not be in a convenient form, but it is there. Since most customers are more than capable of determining broadband availability on their own, I see no need for a government mandate. No, it is not there in any form.
If I type in 7900 Forsyth Blvd, Clayton, MO, there is no indication of where that is according to the records of that company. They could consider that to be the bottom floor of the northmost building on that lot. They could consider that to the be the 8th floor of the southeast building. They might consider that to be part of the city of Clayton, or part of unincorporated St Louis County. They might mean the intersection of Forsyth and Central or the intersection of Forsyth and Meramac.
Which is it? Who knows. The companies are not going to say because that would be a statement of accuracy which they will not make.
So, where is the spatial database? Where is the record source that says whether or not there is service at 38.650025 North, 90.339069 W in NAD83 (and translate that relative to the correct HARN State Plane System for survey use)?
Because it is certainly not available in any of the links you provide, and without it you cannot map that broadband availability information.
This is not just about whether or not a consumer can find if they have service, it is about relevant agencies being able to conduct appropriate mapping and spatial analysis necessary for national security and emergency management.
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Skippy25
join:2000-09-13
Hazelwood, MO
| reply to pnh102
Your lack of any concern for anything beyond the protection of providers is quite funny.
Since they have all this information available, why can't they simply provide it as public information so that others can easily access it?
You can't claim it is for "competitive" reasons as any "competitor" already knows where the other serves.
Besides, I would say it is public information for 2 reasons: 1.) They are a publicly traded company 2.) They are using public right aways. |
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