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DHRacer
Tech Monkey

join:2000-10-10
Lake Arrowhead, CA
reply to haplo2112

Re: yay sandvine

A gun is either a tool or a weapon, depending on whether it puts food on your table or a body in the morgue.

You going to tell me that Sam Colt should have spent the rest of his life flipping burgers, too? Some things are done for good reasons and wind up getting twisted by demented minds. That's no reason to hate the maker.

--
"No one will believe you solved this problem in one day! We've been working on it for months. Now, go act busy for a few weeks and I'll let you know when it's time to tell them." (R&D Supervisor, Minnesota Mining & Manufacturing /3M Corp.)



SSX4life
Hello World
Premium
join:2004-02-13
kudos:3

2 edits

said by DHRacer:

A gun is either a tool or a weapon, depending on whether it puts food on your table or a body in the morgue.

You going to tell me that Sam Colt should have spent the rest of his life flipping burgers, too? Some things are done for good reasons and wind up getting twisted by demented minds. That's no reason to hate the maker.

They said the same thing about Mr. Nobel and the invention of dynamite and how when his fake death was reported everyone said FINALLY THANK GOD AND I HOPE HE ROTS IN HELL.

Look at World War I with the creation of chemical warfare and how standard chemists used their knowledge in killing insects into designing chemials that were used on humans

Look at World War II and the creation of the atomic bomb and how physicist's created an atomic bomb that killed and injured hundreds of thousands of individuals (innocent individuals mind you). This same technology can be used to power submarines and generate electricity for countless individuals.

Same thing can be said about copyright laws and how they were designed to protect the inventor. That doesn't give Disney the right to a mickey mouse law every 50 years to extend copyrights to 200+ years.

Same can be said about the RIAA / MPAA and how they were set up to protect the interests of those they represent, but instead they are now being sued by those very individuals because the RIAA / MPAA has become a corrupt entity.

Need I continue?

The fact that all of these individuals and companies invented something is not the issue. The issue at hand is human nature and greed can turn any device that was intended for good into harm.

Should Albert Einstein rot in hell for helping with the creation of a weapon that killed countless individuals? no

But the individual that CREATED or designed something should be placed in some responsibility for that which they market and allow others to implement.

This is exactly what happened in the Nuremberg trials after WWII. Did the leaders of the SS pull the trigger? no.... but they sure helped.

This is my point.

--ssx--
--
»www.google.com is your best friend... please use it before asking your question.


Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17

I can't believe some of you are comparing weapons of mass destruction to a piece of hardware that does QoS on the Internet, no different compared to many of your DSL/Cable routers do at home on your intranet today.

Ah, hyprocisy at it's best!

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


caco
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

1 edit

I WANT MY P2P! TGIF

jarthur31

join:2006-04-14
Carlsbad, NM

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



aajs

@rogers.com
reply to caco

Do you work for Allot, Ellacoya (Arbor) or Cisco? All of these companies (and many more) sell equipment capable of detecting bittorrent and throttling it.

ISP's do not buy this equipment to spoil your fun; they buy it to make their networks more bearable when they are overloaded. Maybe, if ISPs are no longer allowed to use Sandvine equipment to mitigate the effects of congestion, they will increase the bandwidth of their networks instead; but do you think they'll do that for no extra charge?


stevephl

join:2000-11-27
Colorado Springs, CO
reply to SSX4life

You make some rather far reaching statements in your post. Scientist have been inventing things through out the ages that benefit man, some in ways we might not expect at first glance but to suggest that these people should be held responsible on any level for their inventions is mad, sounds like the rantings of a socialist. Your assertion that the two nuclear devices dropped on Japan towards the end of WWII only seemed to affect innocents is misplaced and simply wrong. You fail to note that the Japanese attacked the US without justification and without provocation,(I have family that died in that attack can you say the same?)that during the course of WWII the Japanese committed all manner of atrocities against the Koreans, the Chinese, Malays and the Filipino's not to mention the barbaric treatment of US prisoners of war. Dropping the nuclear bombs on Japan in the end saved many hundreds of thousands more people forestalling an invasion of mainland Japan. Also note that at the time we were ending this war through the use of nuclear technology the Japanese were in fact researching and working on their own nuclear weapon as were the Russians and Germans. Our decision to use nuclear bombs probably saved untold numbers of people on several continents.
Sometimes in order to secure the freedoms and security of people we need to take drastic actions such as war, but by the same measure those things used in limited war also benefit mankind and do so for many years. The benefits derived from harnessing the atoms in nuclear materials, chemistry, physics and the other scientist far out weight any negative use. Finally this is a legal company (Sandvine) making a legal product, providing jobs and and economy when has this been a bad thing? In the final analysis while you are just another American bashing socialist with an agenda companies like Sandvine are contributing to our economy providing necessary services, what are you providing?



funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

2 edits

1 recommendation

reply to Deadpool0

QoS isn't what got Sandvine into trouble.

1. Their inventive use of forging or injecting reset packets violated the Internet Standards and had no business on the open Internet.

2. Not only did they allow customers to buy the product with the knowledge that they would use it in secret, they marketed it apparently promising their own non-disclosure as part of the deal. The marketing, in fact, often included the assurance that the interference would be transparent (invisible) to the end user.

3. In 2003/2004, their intention was to encourage P2P transfers to form within the walls of an ISP, resulting in a reduced number of active sessions going through an ISPs boundary gateway. It didn't slow uploads or downloads, instead it intelligently tried to reduce the amount flowing through transit/backbone gateways. By 2005, Sandvine's invention became a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections even if they never strayed from the ISPs network. (My testing with both Comcast and my analysis of tests performed on Cox demonstrated this fact.)

said by Deadpool0:

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
No, your home network products do not forge resets. Some corporate gateways do. In both cases, however, these are affecting behaviors on your (or your bosses') private property. Your private network is yours. If you were to send forgeries from your private network, rest assured Bell Sympatico would want to have a not-so-friendly discussion with you.

Comcast and other CATV and TelCo ISPs sell access to the Internet. They're not the edges, they're the middle. They're supposed to be neutral. They asked to be spared a bible of Network Neutrality regulations, and they promised to abide by a one-page four-point FCC policy statement, instead. A year later, Sandvine was installed at Comcast, in direct violation of that policy.

Edit: dates corrected from 1993-1995 to 2003-2005 -- thx lolerskaterz
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit
reply to aajs

said by aajs :

ISP's do not buy this equipment to spoil your fun; they buy it to make their networks more bearable when they are overloaded. Maybe, if ISPs are no longer allowed to use Sandvine equipment to mitigate the effects of congestion, they will increase the bandwidth of their networks instead; but do you think they'll do that for no extra charge?
My goodness, my goodness.

In the 30 year history of the 'net, there's never been a year when demand did not increase.

How did we ever survive without secret, forged, injected packets?

Yeah, life is going to suck for a short time, as some ISPs have to now work doubly-hard and make the TWO YEARS of plant construction and upgrades that Sandvine allowed them to ignore. This won't hurt the MSOs, it hurts their customers. In a way, we're paying for their sin, not just once, but twice. Let's hope the FCC relieves Comcast of some of that 40-60% quarterly revenue growth and gives it back to their customers.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


Sean8

join:2004-01-23
Toronto
reply to Deadpool0

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.



funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit

LOL! A non-disclosed conflict of interest. How very Sandvine-customer like.

((Okay, just kidding... I couldn't resist the cheap shot.))



james1

join:2001-02-26
reply to Deadpool0

said by Deadpool0:

Ah, hyprocisy at it's best!
Although I agree that it is silly to compare Sandvine with weapons of mass destruction, I really don't see how it's hypocritical to do so.


james1

join:2001-02-26
reply to stevephl

I love how you justify the killing of civilians because of something that their armed forces did. That sounds familiar, oh yeah, it's what terrorists do.

Yes, SOME Japanese did horrible things during the war, so did some Americans, Canadians, Brits, Germans and prettymuch every country who has ever gone to war. If everyone followed your logic, we would all be dead.



lolerskatez

@rogers.com
reply to funchords

uhmm. Sandvine didn't exist until 1999. Not sure how they were encouraging p2p in 1993/1994, or inventing a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections in 1995.

See »www.sandvine.com/about_us/default.asp

Year Founded: 2001



Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
reply to Sean8

said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to lolerskatez

Crap -- I often do that mistake. In that post, I meant 200? instead of 199?. Add 10 years to everything there.

DPI was not even a market segment in 199?

Thanks for pointing that out.



Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
reply to funchords

said by funchords:

QoS isn't what got Sandvine into trouble.

1. Their inventive use of forging or injecting reset packets violated the Internet Standards and had no business on the open Internet.

2. Not only did they allow customers to buy the product with the knowledge that they would use it in secret, they marketed it apparently promising their own non-disclosure as part of the deal. The marketing, in fact, often included the assurance that the interference would be transparent (invisible) to the end user.

3. In 1993/1994, their intention was to encourage P2P transfers to form within the walls of an ISP, resulting in a reduced number of active sessions going through an ISPs boundary gateway. It didn't slow uploads or downloads, instead it intelligently tried to reduce the amount flowing through transit/backbone gateways. By 1995, Sandvine's invention became a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections even if they never strayed from the ISPs network. (My testing with both Comcast and my analysis of tests performed on Cox demonstrated this fact.)

said by Deadpool0:

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
No, your home network products do not forge resets. Some corporate gateways do. In both cases, however, these are affecting behaviors on your (or your bosses') private property. Your private network is yours. If you were to send forgeries from your private network, rest assured Bell Sympatico would want to have a not-so-friendly discussion with you.

Comcast and other CATV and TelCo ISPs sell access to the Internet. They're not the edges, they're the middle. They're supposed to be neutral. They asked to be spared a bible of Network Neutrality regulations, and they promised to abide by a one-page four-point FCC policy statement, instead. A year later, Sandvine was installed at Comcast, in direct violation of that policy.
Sandvine is unfairly in trouble, IMO.

Their boxes don't have to forge packets, that's simply the design option Comcast chose to throttle P2P packets.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

I'll dispute whether you can throttle anything by breaking a connection and replacing it with nothing. A much wiser choice on their part would have been to simply mimick what a congested network would do and start randomly throwing away packets.

Once again, congestion is not a new problem, and the Internet is already built to handle it. There is nobody running around in a suit and tie visiting buyers with the advice of "don't buy anything -- there are at least 10 RFCs with the 'Internet Standard' label already explaining how to handle networking congestion."

The problem is that Sandvine perfected a method of performing TCP packet forgery, which was an awesome feat -- but worth little unless they could sell it. So, using P2P as a bogeyman, they convinced buyers that they had a new problem and that their solution was the solution.

Well, it wasn't a new problem.

Back in the early 1990s (and this time, I do have the decade correct), file transfers took up roughly the same percentages (40%-60%) of bandwidth use as it does now. User behavior hasn't changed, only the protocol has. Back then, the preeminent method was FTP. These days, its P2P.

The lesson: You can't throttle progress, nor should you try.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.



lolerskater

@rogers.com
reply to funchords

To add one more interesting point to all of this. If comcast weren't scared to deploy the sandvine product in the critical network path, you wouldn't even know what was going on. Packets would slow down, and no one would be any wiser.

Instead, they put them in an offline situation (like most reporting software), and are required to use RST packets instead of just dropping packets outright.

I think you even identified this in your previous posts.

I am curious what happens when the RSTs stop being sent. What will everyone complain about then? There would be no packet forgery, just 'queueing'.



ReformCRTC
Support Your Independent ISP

join:2004-03-07
Canada
reply to Deadpool0

said by Deadpool0:

said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
Bull biscuits.


Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17

said by ReformCRTC:

said by Deadpool0:

said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
Bull biscuits.
If they were, I would admit that they were. I have no reason to lie or mis-lead anyone. Check out the Sympatico forum, you'll see.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO

stevephl

join:2000-11-27
Colorado Springs, CO
reply to james1

You obviously haven't a clue to what your talking about (babbling?) do your due diligence, do some research. The Japanese civilians were arming themselves for an invasion they were joining a totalitarian government military force. Some Japanese committed offenses? Gee maybe your public education wasn't so good after all. Go read about the atrocities committed by Japanese troops in Korea, especially China, Malaysia and even more so in the Philippines. Research the Bataan Death March in the Philippines where US and Canadian troops were routinely bayoneted, denied medical attention, food and rest. I have visited these places in person have you? Do you really have an understanding of what happened in WWII? I didn't think so. Our treatment of Japanese prisoners of war was very humane, we offered medical attention even when allied troops needed the care, we took very good care of these prisoners the same cannot be said for their side. Even liberal socialist scholars are in agreement that dropping the "Bombs" prevented even more blood shed and deaths. No one is innocent in war especially when it's your side that initiated the unprovoked sneak attack in the first place.
In the final analysis your logic is the the one that is flawed, you lack even a basic understanding of warfare and the cessation of hostilities. Try picking up some good quality history books and read, maybe instead of downloading porn, pirated music and video's you could read a few good books, might even learn something, how cool would that be?



a333
A hot cup of integrals please

join:2007-06-12
Rego Park, NY
Reviews:
·T-Mobile US
·Verizon Online DSL
·Cingular Wireless

would darned cool, if you could quit talking outta ur a$$...
Even a fifth-grader knows that the atomic "Bombs" dropped in Japan caused not only death tolls in the millions, but birth defects in the next 3-4 DECADES. So much for saving bloodshed. Half the population in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bloody vaporized, let alone wounded!!
And that's not even touching on the fact that our dropping such a dangerous weapon spawned an arms race that already one has led to a major crisis (READ: Cuban Missile Crisis), and continues to create tensions b/w nations. Nuclear power? The only thing that's done is add the concern of nuclear waste, and has already led to outright destruction. (READ: Cheronbyl incident)
BTW, all Japan was trying to do was gain new land and resources. This is something even our own damned forefathers did to the Native Americans 400 years ago, when they forced 'em onto reservations, and occasionally even massacred them! (READ: Trail of Tears)
Good ol' Franklin Delano decided to interfere, and stop oil shipments to Japan, thereby triggering the surprise attack. He, along with many other presidents, have disobeyed one of the most important pieces of advice given by George Washington: Don't mess around with other countries, or get tangled up in their affairs. It never helps.
You lost family members not as a result of the will of the Japanese people, Steve, but rather as a result of the foolishness of our government back then.
Poke your head out of the portfolio, and go get a good Adult Education course in a college, instead of trolling and adding useless material to an otherwise-intelligent discussion...



funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit
reply to lolerskater

said by lolerskater :

I am curious what happens when the RSTs stop being sent. What will everyone complain about then? There would be no packet forgery, just 'queueing'.
Do you want to hear something funny -- they probably weren't too scared, they were too cheap. To install them inline would have required ordering a lot more.

Even on Comcast and pre-merger Adelphia, users knew something was going on. More than a year before my first message on this subject, users were questioning the unusual performance characteristics they were seeing and some had even questioned the RST packets. The only credit I can take in this manner is by coming up with a way to demonstrate it and to eliminate possible explanations until only the one remained.

As a result, Comcast has taught us a method to detect and prove ISP interference -- and it works even without overt evidence such as an RST packet.

Also, it taught the blogs and freedom advocates that even highly-paid high-echelon staff are fans of Network Neutrality and an open, free Internet. They despise their bosses' notions of fattening the bottom line by cheating the customer. And they're smart enough to anonymously expose it and even describe how it works.

Even so, the ISPs really are stupid enough to try this again. Between a public who is wary and watching, an FCC who is pissed about getting fooled, bloggers who love this story, and employees who work for the ISPs who actually are fans of the Internet -- they don't stand a chance.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

2 edits
reply to Deadpool0

I haven't looked, but it doesn't make sense to me that Bell would use Sandvine in the same manner as the CATV ISPs did.

Sandvine has a lot to offer, but so do other equipment manufacturers. It was their superior packet forging technology (not just the RSTs but the whole redirection thing) that differentiates them. This is only faint praise, as they had no business conspiring with ISPs to secretly use it to cheat customers.

I don't know if this is the start of the death throes of Sandvine. More likely, I think this is the start of the death throes of DPI in the ISP space. And I'm 100% in favor of killing DPI on ISP and transit-provider networks.

DPI by law enforcement with a warrant or on private networks not for use by the public at large for Internet access is perfectly fine with me.

In what some might see as attempted stock manipulation, Sandvine announced before it reset revenue targets that it is really excited about its future in the wireless industry.

So -- the new frontier -- Is DPI, protocol discrimination, and packet forgery necessary for the success of wireless carriers? My guess is NO, but I want data. Unlike wireline services, where we find that throughput generally falls somewhere between 70-80% of the datarate, only 30-40% of the datarate on wireless networks results in useful throughput. Is there something inherent about certain protocols that would make that 30%-40% even worse?

The same providers Sandvine is chasing sell music and video downloads and services. How, then, do they justify buying Sandvine's technology to discriminate against protocols popular for carrying the same content.

Again -- I know the answer to this for wireline service. I only think I know the answer for wireless service, and not all wireless broadband is alike.

Now *I'M BABBLING*. LOL

--Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


stevephl

join:2000-11-27
Colorado Springs, CO
reply to a333

Professor B.S. You certainly are one bright piece of work. Actually around 200,000 people died as a result of our bombing the two Japanese cities. Birth defects were noted only for those living in the immediate vicinity. I'm sure in your liberal socialist, American apologist mind the loss of Japanese lives, even just one is more abhorrent then the loss of millions of American lives. If you take the time to go find pictures and maps of the two cities you will find that the destruction wasn't as great nor the loss as high as that of Dresden German from Allied bombing (conventional). Save your emotional anti-American diatribe for people who might agree with you; may I suggest Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Putin etc.... Have you actually read anything on the history of WW2? Of course not, you'd much rather spend time watching the latest BS movie out of Hollywood then improve your mind.
If we had not used the Atom bombs, atom bombs which were under development by Japan by the way there would have been an even high body count after we invaded the mainland on both sides of the conflict. Not only Japanese in the two bombed cities would have died by millions more throughout the country but even more egregious would have been the loss of several million American lives. We were the ones attacked not Japan. I lost relatives in that war, I have been to both of the cities in Japan bombed and I have seen the results of the atrocities committed by the Japanese throughout Asia.
Your assertion that using the atom bomb in WW2 created an nuclear arms race is redicouls the Japanese were working on the bomb, the Germans had the bomb and the Russians were close. If not for our use we would most certainly have been bombed ourselves later but the Soviets knew after Japan that we had the capability to retaliate using nuclear weapons. If you were as smart as you think you are you would know that if not for the nuclear weapon deterence the Soviets would have attacked using conventional weapons a blood mess that would have been no matter if we won or not so in effect big shot nuclear weapons actually prevented a ww3 go think about that!
The Cheronbyl incident was unique and could not happen in this country actually nuclear energy is the safest form of energy generation we have in this country.
How the hell did you drag Indians into this mess? Note Indians do not enjoy the name Native Americans, a name heaped upon them by socialist liberal white political correct idiots, I'm sure your not one of them right?
While I'm no fan of FDR one of the biggest big government socialist we have seen in office he is not behind the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor the Japanese had been planning that attack for a while their expansionist policies into Asia dictated that they try and remove us from the equation. You sure are dumb man. If your parents were to read your post they would hang their collective heads in shame.
I have several college degrees but that doesn't make a man smart, alas most colleges and universities today in the US are nothing more then liberal socialist re-education camps.
Have a great Sunday though and I suggest taking a trip to your local library and doing further research, you never know you just might learn something.

America the Great!!!



funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

... Godwin ... is ... so ... close ...



james1

join:2001-02-26
reply to stevephl

said by stevephl:

Some Japanese committed offenses?
Yes, SOME did, or do you think every single Japanese person took turns torturing the poor prisoners during their breaks from working in the factories and farming.

said by stevephl:

Our treatment of Japanese prisoners of war was very humane
Oh yeah, we treated the Japanese so well during the war. I mean, we didn't even take away their homes, businesses and lock them in concentration camps. Oh wait, we did.

said by stevephl:

No one is innocent in war especially when it's your side that initiated the unprovoked sneak attack in the first place.
Oh, so you must think 9-11 was justified then. Think about that one for a bit. We've been bombing the hell out of that part of the world for decades, killing who knows how many civilians.

Oh, also calling it an unprovoked attack is laughable, considering the two countries had been in a "cold war" since 1931 and there was an embargo against Japan by the U.S. I've read quite a few allegations that FDR allowed the attack to go through as well, in order to justify going to a war that had little support on this side of the pond. (I do concede that Japan was the aggressor for the most part, but it isn't like it was a crime for them to attack, it was a legitimate military installation)


james1

join:2001-02-26
reply to funchords

said by funchords:

... Godwin ... is ... so ... close ...
How dare you! You "Post Nazis" with your Godwin's Law! Why dont you go invade Poland!



james1

join:2001-02-26
reply to james1

wait... aren't we supposed to be talking about sandvine?