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Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
reply to SSX4life

Re: yay sandvine

I can't believe some of you are comparing weapons of mass destruction to a piece of hardware that does QoS on the Internet, no different compared to many of your DSL/Cable routers do at home on your intranet today.

Ah, hyprocisy at it's best!

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO

caco
Premium
join:2005-03-10
Whittier, AK

1 edit
I WANT MY P2P! TGIF

jarthur31

join:2006-04-14
Carlsbad, NM
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


aajs

@rogers.com
reply to caco
Do you work for Allot, Ellacoya (Arbor) or Cisco? All of these companies (and many more) sell equipment capable of detecting bittorrent and throttling it.

ISP's do not buy this equipment to spoil your fun; they buy it to make their networks more bearable when they are overloaded. Maybe, if ISPs are no longer allowed to use Sandvine equipment to mitigate the effects of congestion, they will increase the bandwidth of their networks instead; but do you think they'll do that for no extra charge?


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

2 edits

1 recommendation

reply to Deadpool0
QoS isn't what got Sandvine into trouble.

1. Their inventive use of forging or injecting reset packets violated the Internet Standards and had no business on the open Internet.

2. Not only did they allow customers to buy the product with the knowledge that they would use it in secret, they marketed it apparently promising their own non-disclosure as part of the deal. The marketing, in fact, often included the assurance that the interference would be transparent (invisible) to the end user.

3. In 2003/2004, their intention was to encourage P2P transfers to form within the walls of an ISP, resulting in a reduced number of active sessions going through an ISPs boundary gateway. It didn't slow uploads or downloads, instead it intelligently tried to reduce the amount flowing through transit/backbone gateways. By 2005, Sandvine's invention became a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections even if they never strayed from the ISPs network. (My testing with both Comcast and my analysis of tests performed on Cox demonstrated this fact.)

said by Deadpool0:

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
No, your home network products do not forge resets. Some corporate gateways do. In both cases, however, these are affecting behaviors on your (or your bosses') private property. Your private network is yours. If you were to send forgeries from your private network, rest assured Bell Sympatico would want to have a not-so-friendly discussion with you.

Comcast and other CATV and TelCo ISPs sell access to the Internet. They're not the edges, they're the middle. They're supposed to be neutral. They asked to be spared a bible of Network Neutrality regulations, and they promised to abide by a one-page four-point FCC policy statement, instead. A year later, Sandvine was installed at Comcast, in direct violation of that policy.

Edit: dates corrected from 1993-1995 to 2003-2005 -- thx lolerskaterz
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


funchords
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit
reply to aajs
said by aajs :

ISP's do not buy this equipment to spoil your fun; they buy it to make their networks more bearable when they are overloaded. Maybe, if ISPs are no longer allowed to use Sandvine equipment to mitigate the effects of congestion, they will increase the bandwidth of their networks instead; but do you think they'll do that for no extra charge?
My goodness, my goodness.

In the 30 year history of the 'net, there's never been a year when demand did not increase.

How did we ever survive without secret, forged, injected packets?

Yeah, life is going to suck for a short time, as some ISPs have to now work doubly-hard and make the TWO YEARS of plant construction and upgrades that Sandvine allowed them to ignore. This won't hurt the MSOs, it hurts their customers. In a way, we're paying for their sin, not just once, but twice. Let's hope the FCC relieves Comcast of some of that 40-60% quarterly revenue growth and gives it back to their customers.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


Sean8

join:2004-01-23
Toronto
reply to Deadpool0
Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.


funchords
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
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1 edit
LOL! A non-disclosed conflict of interest. How very Sandvine-customer like.

((Okay, just kidding... I couldn't resist the cheap shot.))


james1

join:2001-02-26
reply to Deadpool0
said by Deadpool0:

Ah, hyprocisy at it's best!
Although I agree that it is silly to compare Sandvine with weapons of mass destruction, I really don't see how it's hypocritical to do so.


lolerskatez

@rogers.com
reply to funchords
uhmm. Sandvine didn't exist until 1999. Not sure how they were encouraging p2p in 1993/1994, or inventing a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections in 1995.

See »www.sandvine.com/about_us/defaul ··· ault.asp

Year Founded: 2001


Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
reply to Sean8
said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to lolerskatez
Crap -- I often do that mistake. In that post, I meant 200? instead of 199?. Add 10 years to everything there.

DPI was not even a market segment in 199?

Thanks for pointing that out.


Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
reply to funchords
said by funchords:

QoS isn't what got Sandvine into trouble.

1. Their inventive use of forging or injecting reset packets violated the Internet Standards and had no business on the open Internet.

2. Not only did they allow customers to buy the product with the knowledge that they would use it in secret, they marketed it apparently promising their own non-disclosure as part of the deal. The marketing, in fact, often included the assurance that the interference would be transparent (invisible) to the end user.

3. In 1993/1994, their intention was to encourage P2P transfers to form within the walls of an ISP, resulting in a reduced number of active sessions going through an ISPs boundary gateway. It didn't slow uploads or downloads, instead it intelligently tried to reduce the amount flowing through transit/backbone gateways. By 1995, Sandvine's invention became a way for CATV MSOs to kill P2P connections even if they never strayed from the ISPs network. (My testing with both Comcast and my analysis of tests performed on Cox demonstrated this fact.)

said by Deadpool0:

All the folks at Sandvine did was take something Linksys, for example, is already doing for the home and built it on a larger scale.
No, your home network products do not forge resets. Some corporate gateways do. In both cases, however, these are affecting behaviors on your (or your bosses') private property. Your private network is yours. If you were to send forgeries from your private network, rest assured Bell Sympatico would want to have a not-so-friendly discussion with you.

Comcast and other CATV and TelCo ISPs sell access to the Internet. They're not the edges, they're the middle. They're supposed to be neutral. They asked to be spared a bible of Network Neutrality regulations, and they promised to abide by a one-page four-point FCC policy statement, instead. A year later, Sandvine was installed at Comcast, in direct violation of that policy.
Sandvine is unfairly in trouble, IMO.

Their boxes don't have to forge packets, that's simply the design option Comcast chose to throttle P2P packets.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


funchords
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
I'll dispute whether you can throttle anything by breaking a connection and replacing it with nothing. A much wiser choice on their part would have been to simply mimick what a congested network would do and start randomly throwing away packets.

Once again, congestion is not a new problem, and the Internet is already built to handle it. There is nobody running around in a suit and tie visiting buyers with the advice of "don't buy anything -- there are at least 10 RFCs with the 'Internet Standard' label already explaining how to handle networking congestion."

The problem is that Sandvine perfected a method of performing TCP packet forgery, which was an awesome feat -- but worth little unless they could sell it. So, using P2P as a bogeyman, they convinced buyers that they had a new problem and that their solution was the solution.

Well, it wasn't a new problem.

Back in the early 1990s (and this time, I do have the decade correct), file transfers took up roughly the same percentages (40%-60%) of bandwidth use as it does now. User behavior hasn't changed, only the protocol has. Back then, the preeminent method was FTP. These days, its P2P.

The lesson: You can't throttle progress, nor should you try.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


lolerskater

@rogers.com
reply to funchords
To add one more interesting point to all of this. If comcast weren't scared to deploy the sandvine product in the critical network path, you wouldn't even know what was going on. Packets would slow down, and no one would be any wiser.

Instead, they put them in an offline situation (like most reporting software), and are required to use RST packets instead of just dropping packets outright.

I think you even identified this in your previous posts.

I am curious what happens when the RSTs stop being sent. What will everyone complain about then? There would be no packet forgery, just 'queueing'.


ReformCRTC
Support Your Independent ISP

join:2004-03-07
Canada
reply to Deadpool0
said by Deadpool0:

said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
Bull biscuits.


Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
said by ReformCRTC:

said by Deadpool0:

said by Sean8:

Deadpool works for Bell, by the way. Bell employs Sandvine technology.

Thought it should be made clear.
Bell does not use Sandvine.
Bull biscuits.
If they were, I would admit that they were. I have no reason to lie or mis-lead anyone. Check out the Sympatico forum, you'll see.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

1 edit
reply to lolerskater
said by lolerskater :

I am curious what happens when the RSTs stop being sent. What will everyone complain about then? There would be no packet forgery, just 'queueing'.
Do you want to hear something funny -- they probably weren't too scared, they were too cheap. To install them inline would have required ordering a lot more.

Even on Comcast and pre-merger Adelphia, users knew something was going on. More than a year before my first message on this subject, users were questioning the unusual performance characteristics they were seeing and some had even questioned the RST packets. The only credit I can take in this manner is by coming up with a way to demonstrate it and to eliminate possible explanations until only the one remained.

As a result, Comcast has taught us a method to detect and prove ISP interference -- and it works even without overt evidence such as an RST packet.

Also, it taught the blogs and freedom advocates that even highly-paid high-echelon staff are fans of Network Neutrality and an open, free Internet. They despise their bosses' notions of fattening the bottom line by cheating the customer. And they're smart enough to anonymously expose it and even describe how it works.

Even so, the ISPs really are stupid enough to try this again. Between a public who is wary and watching, an FCC who is pissed about getting fooled, bloggers who love this story, and employees who work for the ISPs who actually are fans of the Internet -- they don't stand a chance.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


funchords
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6

2 edits
reply to Deadpool0
I haven't looked, but it doesn't make sense to me that Bell would use Sandvine in the same manner as the CATV ISPs did.

Sandvine has a lot to offer, but so do other equipment manufacturers. It was their superior packet forging technology (not just the RSTs but the whole redirection thing) that differentiates them. This is only faint praise, as they had no business conspiring with ISPs to secretly use it to cheat customers.

I don't know if this is the start of the death throes of Sandvine. More likely, I think this is the start of the death throes of DPI in the ISP space. And I'm 100% in favor of killing DPI on ISP and transit-provider networks.

DPI by law enforcement with a warrant or on private networks not for use by the public at large for Internet access is perfectly fine with me.

In what some might see as attempted stock manipulation, Sandvine announced before it reset revenue targets that it is really excited about its future in the wireless industry.

So -- the new frontier -- Is DPI, protocol discrimination, and packet forgery necessary for the success of wireless carriers? My guess is NO, but I want data. Unlike wireline services, where we find that throughput generally falls somewhere between 70-80% of the datarate, only 30-40% of the datarate on wireless networks results in useful throughput. Is there something inherent about certain protocols that would make that 30%-40% even worse?

The same providers Sandvine is chasing sell music and video downloads and services. How, then, do they justify buying Sandvine's technology to discriminate against protocols popular for carrying the same content.

Again -- I know the answer to this for wireline service. I only think I know the answer for wireless service, and not all wireless broadband is alike.

Now *I'M BABBLING*. LOL

--Robb
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


Bellundo

@teksavvy.com
reply to funchords
Disregard anything Deadpool says. He's paid by an isp north of the border that makes him say anything (true or untrue) sort of like a puppet with attachable strings.


Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17

1 recommendation

said by Bellundo :

Disregard anything Deadpool says. He's paid by an isp north of the border that makes him say anything (true or untrue) sort of like a puppet with attachable strings.
Riiiight...

I think my credentials in the Sympatico forum speak for themselves despite what some anonymous troll says.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


Bellundo

@teksavvy.com
reply to Sean8
Rogers uses sandvine sympatico uses ellacoya. Hopefully Comcast will get sued to the nines as well as fined by the FCC. Ted i hope your day comes soon because i want to be there to see you pay payback billions.


Deadpool0
Go Sens Go
Premium
join:2001-03-29
Canada
kudos:17
said by Bellundo :

Rogers uses sandvine sympatico uses ellacoya. Hopefully Comcast will get sued to the nines as well as fined by the FCC. Ted i hope your day comes soon because i want to be there to see you pay payback billions.
Rogers uses Cisco, not Sandvine.

You're just full of good information tonight.
--
Series tied 3-3 vs Leafs...GO SENS GO


funchords
Hello
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join:2001-03-11
Yarmouth Port, MA
kudos:6
reply to Bellundo
said by Bellundo :

Disregard anything Deadpool says. He's paid by an isp north of the border that makes him say anything (true or untrue) sort of like a puppet with attachable strings.
I appreciate being warned about the trolls, I know your intentions were good.

But with respect, I don't think Deadpool is trolling. Other than those things clearly recognizable as opinions, he's spoken with facts. Trolls (or shills) don't behave that way. They relate opinions as if they were immutable fact and fail to have an open mind in the other direction. He's also been a member here for only two weeks less than I have -- if someone is a jerk, that doesn't happen.

I think we both generally disagree opinion-wise, but based on my own experience, I know that it is unlikely that Sandvine's P2P Policy Enforcement is being used in a big way at a Telco. Based on the behavior reported by Rogers.ca customers, what they're seeing is not Sandvine-like behavior.

Don't ignore him, value and consider his different point of view and solicit his expertise to help you fill in the blanks.

You can't learn much of anything by only talking to those who agree with you.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.