jjoshua
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Scotch Plains, NJ
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2 edits | Pop from tile floor We had our kitchen floor tiled a few months ago. All of the old flooring was removed down to the subfloor, cement board was laid down, and the tile was laid on top of that.
»Doing my kitchen too
Last night I was standing in the kitchen and I heard a loud pop followed by another loud pop a few minutes later. The tiles and grout all look fine but if I step in one spot on the floor, I can hear a crunch sound.
Any ideas as to what could have happened? Should I just wait a while for the grout to start cracking?
FYI, we also had a crack (grout and tile) all the way across where the kitchen meets the slab at the front door. The contractor is coming next week to fix things. | |
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Sweet Witch
Be the flame, not the moth.
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join:2003-07-15
Gallifrey | Re: Pop from tile floor Do you also feel the floor move or is it just a sound? Have you gotten down with a straight edge to check for a dip?
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jjoshua
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Scotch Plains, NJ
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1 edit | Re: Pop from tile floor said by Sweet Witch  :Do you also feel the floor move or is it just a sound? Have you gotten down with a straight edge to check for a dip? The floor doesn't move any more or less in the one area. I don't see a dip in the floor.
said by dolphins :Sounds as if the cement board was under stress and has broken. What would be the implications of that? | |
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Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: Pop from tile floor That part of the floor needs to be torn out. The crunching you hear indicates movement and that part of the floor will slowly disintegrate. Every time it moves a little more will break.
Question -- did they "bond" the cement board to the subfloor with adhesive or did they just nail it? | |
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jjoshua
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4 edits | Re: Pop from tile floor said by robbin :Question -- did they "bond" the cement board to the subfloor with adhesive or did they just nail it? I pulled up a threshold to check. There is actually 3/8" plywood over the subfloor and the cement board is adhered to the plywood (it looks like they used mastic). I recall seeing nails in the cement board before the tile was installed. | |
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| | | | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: Pop from tile floor First problem I see -- as far as I know 5/8" subfloor is the minimum suitable subfloor for installation of cement backerboards. Personally I wouldn't use anything less than 3/4". I also don't like using mastic to bond cement board but if they used the proper mastic it probably meets spec.
The 3/8" subfloor could be causing problems as it is too thin and flexible. Cement board provides a good bond surface but in itself adds no strength. There is going to be movement inherent in this installation due to the thin subfloor. | |
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jjoshua
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Scotch Plains, NJ
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1 edit | Re: Pop from tile floor said by robbin :The 3/8" subfloor could be causing problems as it is too thin and flexible. Cement board provides a good bond surface but in itself adds no strength. There is going to be movement inherent in this installation due to the thin subfloor. The 3/8" plywood is over the existing diagonal plank subfloor. Check out the pictures in the link. Are you saying that even that is not enough? | |
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| | | | | | robbin
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join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX | Re: Pop from tile floor Correct -- it should have been 3/4" over the diagonal subfloor. Basically tile installation specs don't allow for 3/8" as a subfloor material no matter what it is over. | |
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| | | | | | | | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: Pop from tile floor I take it that you are a Tilesetter. Please provide reference and proper specifications allowing this practice. Specifically where does ANSI (American National Standards Institute), TCNA (Tile Council North America), or any other standards institute allow this practice and under what conditions and installation methods? | |
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| | | | | | | | | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: Pop from tile floor I know what I am talking about. The CBU (Cement Board Units) are the underlayment. There is no specification which allows CBUs to be installed on another underlayment, they are to be installed on a subfloor. The 3/8 is either a second underlayment which is not permitted or it is a subfloor in which case it it too thin.
In either case, it is a substandard installation which does not follow proper tile installation procedures and techniques. This is the reason for the current problems. The floor is almost new and the issues will only get worse over time. | |
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dolphins
Miami Dolphins
Premium
join:2001-08-22
Westville, NJ | Sounds as if the cement board was under stress and has broken. | |
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bryank
join:2000-03-23
Plainfield, IL
 ·ViaTalk
1 edit | The show Holmes on Homes covers this particular problem alot. In a recent episode, he said your sub floor should be a minimum of 5/8" thick and screwed downed (not nailed) to the joists. Also, he said to use construction grade plywood with the rough side up. My guess, is that the subfloor was too thin, shifted, cracking the cement board (as stated before).
I really get a lot of great info from HoH. | |
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ravencajun
Premium
join:2004-08-12
Houston, TX
| Re: Pop from tile floor We watched that same episode too, I love Holmes on Homes we always learn something new. And I just love to hear him say "tear it all down"
In our previous house the tile that had been down when we bought the house had an area that the grout had cracked and it looked like it had been taken out and replaced yet it did the same again, when we ripped all the tile out we found that area was right over the top of one of the central heat and air ducts, so apparently the slab above it was being affected by the temps in the duct, the slab also had a little crack in it there too. | |
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nknk
@cebridge.net | We had the exact same thing happen in our kitchen our house is 6 years old and out tile was put directly on the concrete. We have a post tension foundation and not cracks anywhere. What could this be? | |
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mythology
join:2002-10-16
Seneca, SC
| Maybe the thin set wasnt put on thick enough and is crushing under the weight when you step on it? When you tap on the tile with your knuckle does it sound hollow? Just a thought. I think we use a 1/4" inch trowel when we lay tile and i usually keep the thin set pretty thick. Also you said your cement board was nailed down? They have special coated screws that we use on our floors and we use liquid nail/sub floor glue as well. | |
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jjoshua
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Scotch Plains, NJ
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| Re: Pop from tile floor said by PeeWee :In the meantime try not to imagine the worst until you have reason. That's what we're doing.
I went around the floor to see if there was a difference in sound - I didn't notice any. | |
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3SGTE
ST215W
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join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house.
You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough.
Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile.
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dolphins
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Westville, NJ
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| Re: Pop from tile floor said by 3SGTE :I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house. Proper terminology and specs are always relevant in this forum.
You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough. That can always be fixed so the deflection is minimum.
Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile.
Or just that the tiles have popped loose from the substrate as mentioned by PeeWee
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3SGTE
ST215W
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join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| Re: Pop from tile floor said by dolphins :said by 3SGTE :I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house. Proper terminology and specs are always relevant in this forum. I will not dispute that, however, my point here is that I am NOT commenting on the terminology.
said by dolphins :said by 3SGTE :You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough. That can always be fixed so the deflection is minimum. Whether it can be fixed or not is irrelevant. My definition of 'cannot' in this case is based on the repair being cost effective, and the installation of tiles not being tenable given the current state of the floor. The point is that my parents floor and the OP's floor share the same construction, so it would be expected that there is some similarity in terms of the flexibility.
If my parents floor needs repair to address the flexibility, then so too does the OP's floor.
said by dolphins :said by 3SGTE :Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile. Or just that the tiles have popped loose from the substrate as mentioned by PeeWee Sure, anything is possible. If that is all it is, then that is great. However, the OP should have some idea of the flexibility of the floor. I am sure that he can make a sound judgment.
You are welcome to split hairs with this post as well; I am sure that there are some there for you.
The main point still stands, if the floor is flexing, keeping the tiles on will be problematic.
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Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
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ravencajun
Premium
join:2004-08-12
Houston, TX
| to help keep your grout nice and clean and new looking I highly suggest putting a really really good quality grout sealer on your grout lines, it is so worth the extra cost. When you spill something on it instead of cringing you smile when you see it just bead up and wipe right off.
Our tile guy used Sealer's choice grout sealer by Aqua Mix I think. It worked very well. | |
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dolphins
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Westville, NJ
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1 edit | Re: Pop from tile floor Thanks for the follow up. Some of threads end with us never knowing how it came out.
Just an FYI, siliconized sanded caulk comes in many colors to match the grout. I would use it where the slab meets the wood floor instead of grout. They make flexible grout in Europe and Australia but not here in the US as far as I know?
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jjoshua
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join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | Wouldn't you know it... I came down this morning and noticed a small crack in the grout. When I bang on the tile, it is definitely moving.
We'll be having a talk with the contractor to replace these. | |
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dgilbert
Good Bye My Friend
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join:2002-06-15
none
clubs: | dude, i would SERIOUSLY be calling in a new contractor. this floor is not done correctly and will do nothing but continue to crack and pop on you.
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jjoshua
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| Re: Pop from tile floor said by dgilbert :dude, i would SERIOUSLY be calling in a new contractor. this floor is not done correctly and will do nothing but continue to crack and pop on you. Yeah... That's a bit extreme. At this point I have a contractor who is responsive and working to resolve the problem.
Any ideas as to why the thinset didn't stick to the tiles at all would be very useful. | |
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dgilbert
Good Bye My Friend
Premium,MVM
join:2002-06-15
none
clubs:
| Re: Pop from tile floor improper installation jsut like the rest of the floor. sounds like the tiles were dirty and the thinset stuck to the dirt instead of the tile.
and actually, no it is not too extreme to call in a new guy. your floor was not done properly fromteh sub floor on up. you are constantly getting cracks inteh grout/tile, even 1 day after he "fixed" it last time. i would at least get another company to come in and give you their opion of whether it needs to all be ripped up or not. i can tell you this, as long as the sub has any flex it it, your tile WILL continue to crack.
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| | | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
1 edit | Re: Pop from tile floor Several possibilities as to why it came up. Thinset wasn't mixed properly or the wrong kind of thinset was used. The thinset was allowed to skin over before the tiles were installed. The tiles were installed using an incorrrect method over the thinset. The tiles were not back buttered. It could be any and all of the above. One thing is certain -- you may have a contractor willing to work with you but you do not have a tilesetter installing this floor!
I agree with the other posters -- you need an installer who know how to install tile -- this one doesn't.
While the tiles are up would be a good time to correct the improper cement board installation. The best thing would be top find a tilesetter who knows mud work. The proper install over the diagonal subfloor would be to float a mudbed and install the tile over it. Otherwise the installation should conform to established standards and/or manufacturers recommendations for the products used. You have neither at this point. | |
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| | | | | robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| Re: Pop from tile floor There could be enough flex in the thinset that it would not crack and the cement board could still be flexing enough to break the bond with the rigid tiles. If this is the case when the tiles are reinstalled in such a way that the thinset sticks to them well the next time the floor flexes the tiles will crack instead of coming loose. Has anyone measured the deflection of the floor structure? | |
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jjoshua
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join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | How does one test the deflection of the floor? | |
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