robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| reply to PeeWee
Re: Pop from tile floor
I know what I am talking about. The CBU (Cement Board Units) are the underlayment. There is no specification which allows CBUs to be installed on another underlayment, they are to be installed on a subfloor. The 3/8 is either a second underlayment which is not permitted or it is a subfloor in which case it it too thin.
In either case, it is a substandard installation which does not follow proper tile installation procedures and techniques. This is the reason for the current problems. The floor is almost new and the issues will only get worse over time. |
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PeeWee
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join:2001-10-21
Clovis, CA
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1 edit | Go back and read some more, properly attached underlayment is allowed. Most often the thickness is determined solely to set elevations as needed. I really wish you didn't see this as a competition.
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3SGTE
ST215W
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join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| reply to jjoshua
I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house.
You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough.
Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile.
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dolphins
Miami Dolphins
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join:2001-08-22
Westville, NJ
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| said by 3SGTE  :I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house. Proper terminology and specs are always relevant in this forum.
You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough. That can always be fixed so the deflection is minimum.
Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile.
Or just that the tiles have popped loose from the substrate as mentioned by PeeWee
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3SGTE
ST215W
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join:2000-11-23
there
clubs:
| said by dolphins :said by 3SGTE :I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house. Proper terminology and specs are always relevant in this forum. I will not dispute that, however, my point here is that I am NOT commenting on the terminology.
said by dolphins :said by 3SGTE :You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough. That can always be fixed so the deflection is minimum. Whether it can be fixed or not is irrelevant. My definition of 'cannot' in this case is based on the repair being cost effective, and the installation of tiles not being tenable given the current state of the floor. The point is that my parents floor and the OP's floor share the same construction, so it would be expected that there is some similarity in terms of the flexibility.
If my parents floor needs repair to address the flexibility, then so too does the OP's floor.
said by dolphins :said by 3SGTE :Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile. Or just that the tiles have popped loose from the substrate as mentioned by PeeWee Sure, anything is possible. If that is all it is, then that is great. However, the OP should have some idea of the flexibility of the floor. I am sure that he can make a sound judgment.
You are welcome to split hairs with this post as well; I am sure that there are some there for you.
The main point still stands, if the floor is flexing, keeping the tiles on will be problematic.
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Dennis
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Algonquin, IL
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| reply to jjoshua
Re: Pop from tile floor
guys...let's keep focus.
Our goal is to help jjoshua in whatever way we can, not get into debates on who is right and wrong. Opinions are great, just don't take it down to the troll level please.....we're not there yet, but I don't want to get any closer.
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ravencajun
Premium
join:2004-08-12
Houston, TX
| reply to jjoshua
to help keep your grout nice and clean and new looking I highly suggest putting a really really good quality grout sealer on your grout lines, it is so worth the extra cost. When you spill something on it instead of cringing you smile when you see it just bead up and wipe right off.
Our tile guy used Sealer's choice grout sealer by Aqua Mix I think. It worked very well. |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
 ·Verizon FIOS
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| reply to jjoshua
An update...
The cracked tile between the kitchen and the front hall was replaced. They cut some tile to create a straight transition across the entry so any future cracking will happen along the grout line and can be easily fixed.
As for the popping sound... We're not noticing any new lose tile or cracked grout. If something happens, it will be fixed. |
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chmod
Premium
join:2000-12-12
Joliet, IL
clubs:
| reply to PeeWee
said by PeeWee :said by robbin :Correct -- it should have been 3/4" over the diagonal subfloor. Basically tile installation specs don't allow for 3/8" as a subfloor material no matter what it is over. The diagonal material is sub-floor the 3/8 material would be called underlayment and can be any thickness. The purpose of underlayment is to eliminate voids and give a smoother surface (as in non-structural). While I agree 3/8 apa rated wood underlayment gapped an 1/8" on long and butt seams is a acceptable substrate to put tile down on, I dont think I would put that over dimensional lumber ie 1x's on a 45 (which my house has). Also, no matter how many layers of underlayment + subfloor you have I wouldn't use anything less than 3/8 for a ceramic install. We use 1/4" hardibacker for fireplace surrounds but high traffic floor areas 3/8 to 1/2" apa rated plywood glued and stapled every 1.5inches on the perimeter of the sheet and 4-6inches in the field.
I don't claim to be a ceramic guru by any means more vinyl than anything. But I install a lot and I mean alot of underlayment for ceramic crews for one of the stores I work for. As for 3/8 or 1/2 like you mentioned it depends on the product its mating up against to. 3/8 for hardwood installations makes a smooth grouted transition. 1/2 is used more on second floors in new construction when going up to carpet. I'm sure I'll get crap because the store I work for one of the largest in will co. and other members have posed about here use apa rated wood underlament for ceramic on most new construction and retail.
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dolphins
Miami Dolphins
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join:2001-08-22
Westville, NJ
·Comcast
1 edit | reply to jjoshua
Thanks for the follow up. Some of threads end with us never knowing how it came out.
Just an FYI, siliconized sanded caulk comes in many colors to match the grout. I would use it where the slab meets the wood floor instead of grout. They make flexible grout in Europe and Australia but not here in the US as far as I know?
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | reply to jjoshua
Wouldn't you know it... I came down this morning and noticed a small crack in the grout. When I bang on the tile, it is definitely moving.
We'll be having a talk with the contractor to replace these. |
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jjoshua
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join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
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| reply to jjoshua
The contractor came to replace the popped tiles. He removed the grout and the tiles came right up...
The good news is that we can reuse the tiles because the thinset didn't stick to it. 
The thinset was in full contact with the tile as it was all flattened out - it just didn't stick to the tile. |
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dgilbert
Good Bye My Friend
Premium,MVM
join:2002-06-15
none
clubs: | reply to jjoshua
dude, i would SERIOUSLY be calling in a new contractor. this floor is not done correctly and will do nothing but continue to crack and pop on you.
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jjoshua
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join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
·Verizon FIOS
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| said by dgilbert :dude, i would SERIOUSLY be calling in a new contractor. this floor is not done correctly and will do nothing but continue to crack and pop on you. Yeah... That's a bit extreme. At this point I have a contractor who is responsive and working to resolve the problem.
Any ideas as to why the thinset didn't stick to the tiles at all would be very useful. |
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dgilbert
Good Bye My Friend
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join:2002-06-15
none
clubs:
| improper installation jsut like the rest of the floor. sounds like the tiles were dirty and the thinset stuck to the dirt instead of the tile.
and actually, no it is not too extreme to call in a new guy. your floor was not done properly fromteh sub floor on up. you are constantly getting cracks inteh grout/tile, even 1 day after he "fixed" it last time. i would at least get another company to come in and give you their opion of whether it needs to all be ripped up or not. i can tell you this, as long as the sub has any flex it it, your tile WILL continue to crack.
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
1 edit | Several possibilities as to why it came up. Thinset wasn't mixed properly or the wrong kind of thinset was used. The thinset was allowed to skin over before the tiles were installed. The tiles were installed using an incorrrect method over the thinset. The tiles were not back buttered. It could be any and all of the above. One thing is certain -- you may have a contractor willing to work with you but you do not have a tilesetter installing this floor!
I agree with the other posters -- you need an installer who know how to install tile -- this one doesn't.
While the tiles are up would be a good time to correct the improper cement board installation. The best thing would be top find a tilesetter who knows mud work. The proper install over the diagonal subfloor would be to float a mudbed and install the tile over it. Otherwise the installation should conform to established standards and/or manufacturers recommendations for the products used. You have neither at this point. |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ
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| said by robbin :While the tiles are up would be a good time to correct the improper cement board installation. The best thing would be top find a tilesetter who knows mud work. The proper install over the diagonal subfloor would be to float a mudbed and install the tile over it. Otherwise the installation should conform to established standards and/or manufacturers recommendations for the products used. You have neither at this point. Ripping out the entire kitchen seems reasonable. I'll get right on that. 
FWIW, the underlayment and cement board was solid under the tile and there was no problem with the thinset sticking to it. The thinset was not cracked. |
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robbin
Premium,MVM
join:2000-09-21
Leander, TX
| There could be enough flex in the thinset that it would not crack and the cement board could still be flexing enough to break the bond with the rigid tiles. If this is the case when the tiles are reinstalled in such a way that the thinset sticks to them well the next time the floor flexes the tiles will crack instead of coming loose. Has anyone measured the deflection of the floor structure? |
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jjoshua
Premium
join:2001-06-01
Scotch Plains, NJ | reply to jjoshua
How does one test the deflection of the floor? |
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