Pop from tile floor in Home Repair & Improvement http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20131373 en Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:37:13 EDT Thu, 10 Dec 2009 11:37:13 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283459 robbin : Read this

»johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthr···p?t=1845]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283459 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 16:25:18 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283291 jjoshua : How does one test the deflection of the floor?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283291 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:55:11 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283206 robbin : There could be enough flex in the thinset that it would not crack and the cement board could still be flexing enough to break the bond with the rigid tiles. If this is the case when the tiles are reinstalled in such a way that the thinset sticks to them well the next time the floor flexes the tiles will crack instead of coming loose. Has anyone measured the deflection of the floor structure?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283206 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:43:39 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283137 jjoshua :
said by robbin See Profile :

While the tiles are up would be a good time to correct the improper cement board installation. The best thing would be top find a tilesetter who knows mud work. The proper install over the diagonal subfloor would be to float a mudbed and install the tile over it. Otherwise the installation should conform to established standards and/or manufacturers recommendations for the products used. You have neither at this point.
Ripping out the entire kitchen seems reasonable. I'll get right on that. :huh:

FWIW, the underlayment and cement board was solid under the tile and there was no problem with the thinset sticking to it. The thinset was not cracked.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20283137 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 15:34:47 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20282870 robbin : Several possibilities as to why it came up. Thinset wasn't mixed properly or the wrong kind of thinset was used. The thinset was allowed to skin over before the tiles were installed. The tiles were installed using an incorrrect method over the thinset. The tiles were not back buttered. It could be any and all of the above. One thing is certain -- you may have a contractor willing to work with you but you do not have a tilesetter installing this floor!

I agree with the other posters -- you need an installer who know how to install tile -- this one doesn't.

While the tiles are up would be a good time to correct the improper cement board installation. The best thing would be top find a tilesetter who knows mud work. The proper install over the diagonal subfloor would be to float a mudbed and install the tile over it. Otherwise the installation should conform to established standards and/or manufacturers recommendations for the products used. You have neither at this point.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20282870 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:48:56 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20282316 dgilbert : improper installation jsut like the rest of the floor. sounds like the tiles were dirty and the thinset stuck to the dirt instead of the tile.

and actually, no it is not too extreme to call in a new guy. your floor was not done properly fromteh sub floor on up. you are constantly getting cracks inteh grout/tile, even 1 day after he "fixed" it last time. i would at least get another company to come in and give you their opion of whether it needs to all be ripped up or not. i can tell you this, as long as the sub has any flex it it, your tile WILL continue to crack.
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Lack of Preparation on YOUR Part does NOT Constitute an Emergency on Mine!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20282316 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 13:11:19 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281526 jjoshua :
said by dgilbert See Profile :

dude, i would SERIOUSLY be calling in a new contractor. this floor is not done correctly and will do nothing but continue to crack and pop on you.
Yeah... That's a bit extreme. At this point I have a contractor who is responsive and working to resolve the problem.

Any ideas as to why the thinset didn't stick to the tiles at all would be very useful.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281526 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:51:11 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281238 dgilbert : dude, i would SERIOUSLY be calling in a new contractor. this floor is not done correctly and will do nothing but continue to crack and pop on you.
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Lack of Preparation on YOUR Part does NOT Constitute an Emergency on Mine!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281238 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 09:49:38 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281111 jjoshua : The contractor came to replace the popped tiles. He removed the grout and the tiles came right up...

The good news is that we can reuse the tiles because the thinset didn't stick to it. :o

The thinset was in full contact with the tile as it was all flattened out - it just didn't stick to the tile.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281111 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 09:19:46 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20206838 jjoshua : Wouldn't you know it... I came down this morning and noticed a small crack in the grout. When I bang on the tile, it is definitely moving.

We'll be having a talk with the contractor to replace these.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20206838 Sat, 22 Mar 2008 10:50:29 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20205298 dolphins : Thanks for the follow up. Some of threads end with us never knowing how it came out.

Just an FYI, siliconized sanded caulk comes in many colors to match the grout. I would use it where the slab meets the wood floor instead of grout. They make flexible grout in Europe and Australia but not here in the US as far as I know?
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Prevent Malware]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20205298 Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:38:58 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20205285 chmod :
said by PeeWee See Profile :

said by robbin See Profile :

Correct -- it should have been 3/4" over the diagonal subfloor. Basically tile installation specs don't allow for 3/8" as a subfloor material no matter what it is over.
The diagonal material is sub-floor the 3/8 material would be called underlayment and can be any thickness. The purpose of underlayment is to eliminate voids and give a smoother surface (as in non-structural).
While I agree 3/8 apa rated wood underlayment gapped an 1/8" on long and butt seams is a acceptable substrate to put tile down on, I dont think I would put that over dimensional lumber ie 1x's on a 45 (which my house has). Also, no matter how many layers of underlayment + subfloor you have I wouldn't use anything less than 3/8 for a ceramic install. We use 1/4" hardibacker for fireplace surrounds but high traffic floor areas 3/8 to 1/2" apa rated plywood glued and stapled every 1.5inches on the perimeter of the sheet and 4-6inches in the field.

I don't claim to be a ceramic guru by any means more vinyl than anything. But I install a lot and I mean alot of underlayment for ceramic crews for one of the stores I work for. As for 3/8 or 1/2 like you mentioned it depends on the product its mating up against to. 3/8 for hardwood installations makes a smooth grouted transition. 1/2 is used more on second floors in new construction when going up to carpet. I'm sure I'll get crap because the store I work for one of the largest in will co. and other members have posed about here use apa rated wood underlament for ceramic on most new construction and retail.
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Some people are like Slinkies. Not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20205285 Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:37:05 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20205188 jjoshua : An update...

The cracked tile between the kitchen and the front hall was replaced. They cut some tile to create a straight transition across the entry so any future cracking will happen along the grout line and can be easily fixed.

As for the popping sound... We're not noticing any new lose tile or cracked grout. If something happens, it will be fixed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20205188 Fri, 21 Mar 2008 22:16:13 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20204921 ravencajun : to help keep your grout nice and clean and new looking I highly suggest putting a really really good quality grout sealer on your grout lines, it is so worth the extra cost. When you spill something on it instead of cringing you smile when you see it just bead up and wipe right off.

Our tile guy used Sealer's choice grout sealer by Aqua Mix I think. It worked very well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20204921 Fri, 21 Mar 2008 21:20:20 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20194642 Dennis : guys...let's keep focus.

Our goal is to help jjoshua See Profile in whatever way we can, not get into debates on who is right and wrong. Opinions are great, just don't take it down to the troll level please.....we're not there yet, but I don't want to get any closer.
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Meet my son, Connor.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20194642 Thu, 20 Mar 2008 08:21:00 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20193418 3SGTE :
said by dolphins See Profile :

said by 3SGTE See Profile :

I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house.
Proper terminology and specs are always relevant in this forum.
I will not dispute that, however, my point here is that I am NOT commenting on the terminology.

said by dolphins See Profile :

said by 3SGTE See Profile :
You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough.
That can always be fixed so the deflection is minimum.
Whether it can be fixed or not is irrelevant. My definition of 'cannot' in this case is based on the repair being cost effective, and the installation of tiles not being tenable given the current state of the floor. The point is that my parents floor and the OP's floor share the same construction, so it would be expected that there is some similarity in terms of the flexibility.
If my parents floor needs repair to address the flexibility, then so too does the OP's floor.

said by dolphins See Profile :

said by 3SGTE See Profile :
Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile.
Or just that the tiles have popped loose from the substrate as mentioned by PeeWee See Profile
Sure, anything is possible. If that is all it is, then that is great. However, the OP should have some idea of the flexibility of the floor. I am sure that he can make a sound judgment.

You are welcome to split hairs with this post as well; I am sure that there are some there for you.
The main point still stands, if the floor is flexing, keeping the tiles on will be problematic.
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Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20193418 Wed, 19 Mar 2008 23:07:00 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20192917 dolphins :
said by 3SGTE See Profile :

I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house.
Proper terminology and specs are always relevant in this forum.

You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough.
That can always be fixed so the deflection is minimum.

Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile.
Or just that the tiles have popped loose from the substrate as mentioned by PeeWee See Profile
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Prevent Malware]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20192917 Wed, 19 Mar 2008 21:25:29 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20192631 3SGTE : I'm not going to futz around over terminology, but my parents have that same style of subfloor (diagonal planks) in their house.

You can use all the names you want, but they could never put tile down because the floor just isn't rigid enough.

Based on the pictures and description, I would not be surprised to find that the floor is flexing. All codes and guidelines aside, a floor with a lot of flex can't be good for tile.
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Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20192631 Wed, 19 Mar 2008 20:35:58 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188629 PeeWee : Go back and read some more, properly attached underlayment is allowed. Most often the thickness is determined solely to set elevations as needed. I really wish you didn't see this as a competition.
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My grandkids REALLY ARE cuter than yours!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188629 Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:30:07 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188595 robbin : I know what I am talking about. The CBU (Cement Board Units) are the underlayment. There is no specification which allows CBUs to be installed on another underlayment, they are to be installed on a subfloor. The 3/8 is either a second underlayment which is not permitted or it is a subfloor in which case it it too thin.

In either case, it is a substandard installation which does not follow proper tile installation procedures and techniques. This is the reason for the current problems. The floor is almost new and the issues will only get worse over time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188595 Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:19:58 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188534 PeeWee :
said by robbin See Profile :

I take it that you are a Tilesetter. Please provide reference and proper specifications allowing this practice. Specifically where does ANSI (American National Standards Institute), TCNA (Tile Council North America), or any other standards institute allow this practice and under what conditions and installation methods?
Pass. Find out what you're talking about first. When you find out the difference between underlayment and sub-floor, then we can talk.
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My grandkids REALLY ARE cuter than yours!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188534 Wed, 19 Mar 2008 00:01:44 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188483 robbin : I take it that you are a Tilesetter. Please provide reference and proper specifications allowing this practice. Specifically where does ANSI (American National Standards Institute), TCNA (Tile Council North America), or any other standards institute allow this practice and under what conditions and installation methods?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188483 Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:51:35 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188457 PeeWee :
said by robbin See Profile :

Correct -- it should have been 3/4" over the diagonal subfloor. Basically tile installation specs don't allow for 3/8" as a subfloor material no matter what it is over.
The diagonal material is sub-floor the 3/8 material would be called underlayment and can be any thickness. The purpose of underlayment is to eliminate voids and give a smoother surface (as in non-structural).
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My grandkids REALLY ARE cuter than yours!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20188457 Tue, 18 Mar 2008 23:45:56 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20187262 jjoshua :
said by PeeWee See Profile :

In the meantime try not to imagine the worst until you have reason.
That's what we're doing.

I went around the floor to see if there was a difference in sound - I didn't notice any.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20187262 Tue, 18 Mar 2008 20:09:03 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20183830 dgilbert :
said by jjoshua See Profile
we also had a crack (grout and tile) all the way across where the kitchen meets the slab at the front door
said by jjoshua See Profile
The floor doesn't move any more or less in the one area. I don't see a dip in the floor.
those 2 items there are a BIG red flag. tile floors should not move AT ALL. the movement has caused the crack. it will do nothing but get worse.

don't feel too bad, my den and foyer were tiled last year by an "expert" and the grout looks like shit along with several tiles higher/lower than others. we have a slab floor, so at least she didn't screw up the subfloor too.
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Lack of Preparation on YOUR Part does NOT Constitute an Emergency on Mine!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20183830 Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:26:33 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20183794 PeeWee : Look for the simplest things first. Take solid (not metal), a screwdriver handle works well, and tap the tile surfaces in various locations around the suspected tiles and compare the sound to known good locations. You will recognize the difference between loose and tight tiles. The most likely problem would be a tile may have been moved slightly by the installer after it had been set too long. Or it may be that traffic was allowed too soon, and sometimes the thin-set just didn't cure as fast in some areas. This is a common issue and the tile setter would usually return to fix these type of issues without complaint.
In the meantime try not to imagine the worst until you have reason.
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My grandkids REALLY ARE cuter than yours!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20183794 Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:18:09 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20177875 mythology : Maybe the thin set wasnt put on thick enough and is crushing under the weight when you step on it? When you tap on the tile with your knuckle does it sound hollow? Just a thought. I think we use a 1/4" inch trowel when we lay tile and i usually keep the thin set pretty thick. Also you said your cement board was nailed down? They have special coated screws that we use on our floors and we use liquid nail/sub floor glue as well.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20177875 Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:15:02 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20177083 ravencajun : We watched that same episode too, I love Holmes on Homes we always learn something new. And I just love to hear him say "tear it all down"

In our previous house the tile that had been down when we bought the house had an area that the grout had cracked and it looked like it had been taken out and replaced yet it did the same again, when we ripped all the tile out we found that area was right over the top of one of the central heat and air ducts, so apparently the slab above it was being affected by the temps in the duct, the slab also had a little crack in it there too.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20177083 Mon, 17 Mar 2008 00:47:15 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20176175 anon : We had the exact same thing happen in our kitchen our house is 6 years old and out tile was put directly on the concrete. We have a post tension foundation and not cracks anywhere. What could this be?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20176175 Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:21:15 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20133876 bryank : The show Holmes on Homes covers this particular problem alot. In a recent episode, he said your sub floor should be a minimum of 5/8" thick and screwed downed (not nailed) to the joists. Also, he said to use construction grade plywood with the rough side up. My guess, is that the subfloor was too thin, shifted, cracking the cement board (as stated before).

I really get a lot of great info from HoH.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20133876 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 23:35:59 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20132119 robbin : Correct -- it should have been 3/4" over the diagonal subfloor. Basically tile installation specs don't allow for 3/8" as a subfloor material no matter what it is over.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20132119 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:25:24 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20132027 jjoshua :
said by robbin See Profile :

The 3/8" subfloor could be causing problems as it is too thin and flexible. Cement board provides a good bond surface but in itself adds no strength. There is going to be movement inherent in this installation due to the thin subfloor.
The 3/8" plywood is over the existing diagonal plank subfloor. Check out the pictures in the link. Are you saying that even that is not enough?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20132027 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 17:02:59 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131974 robbin : First problem I see -- as far as I know 5/8" subfloor is the minimum suitable subfloor for installation of cement backerboards. Personally I wouldn't use anything less than 3/4". I also don't like using mastic to bond cement board but if they used the proper mastic it probably meets spec.

The 3/8" subfloor could be causing problems as it is too thin and flexible. Cement board provides a good bond surface but in itself adds no strength. There is going to be movement inherent in this installation due to the thin subfloor.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131974 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 16:51:39 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131691 jjoshua :
said by robbin See Profile :

Question -- did they "bond" the cement board to the subfloor with adhesive or did they just nail it?
I pulled up a threshold to check. There is actually 3/8" plywood over the subfloor and the cement board is adhered to the plywood (it looks like they used mastic). I recall seeing nails in the cement board before the tile was installed.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131691 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 15:38:27 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131577 robbin : That part of the floor needs to be torn out. The crunching you hear indicates movement and that part of the floor will slowly disintegrate. Every time it moves a little more will break.

Question -- did they "bond" the cement board to the subfloor with adhesive or did they just nail it?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131577 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 15:15:47 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131545 jjoshua :
said by Sweet Witch See Profile :

Do you also feel the floor move or is it just a sound? Have you gotten down with a straight edge to check for a dip?
The floor doesn't move any more or less in the one area. I don't see a dip in the floor.

said by dolphins See Profile :

Sounds as if the cement board was under stress and has broken.
What would be the implications of that?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131545 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 15:09:51 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131510 dolphins : Sounds as if the cement board was under stress and has broken.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131510 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 15:01:25 EDT Re: Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131444 Sweet Witch : Do you also feel the floor move or is it just a sound? Have you gotten down with a straight edge to check for a dip?
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"While you can teach an old dog new tricks, you simply can't teach him to be a cat."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131444 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 14:50:39 EDT Pop from tile floor http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131373 jjoshua : We had our kitchen floor tiled a few months ago. All of the old flooring was removed down to the subfloor, cement board was laid down, and the tile was laid on top of that.

»Doing my kitchen too

Last night I was standing in the kitchen and I heard a loud pop followed by another loud pop a few minutes later. The tiles and grout all look fine but if I step in one spot on the floor, I can hear a crunch sound.

Any ideas as to what could have happened? Should I just wait a while for the grout to start cracking?

FYI, we also had a crack (grout and tile) all the way across where the kitchen meets the slab at the front door. The contractor is coming next week to fix things.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20131373 Sat, 08 Mar 2008 14:34:34 EDT