EGeezer
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| NSA collection and analysis gets WSJ's attention
Perhaps political conservatives and folks in the corporate world might see privacy as an issue now that Clinton, Obama or someone else on the political "other side" may be elected and use these powers to ferret out anti-trust collaboration, unregistered firearms ownership, underground economy activity and other things presently going unmonitored, undiscovered or untaxed by government. After all, that "industry pricing guideline" or crafting of tax avoidance schemes discussed in an email or phone call, purchase of a new rifle scope or non-taxed purchase at buy.com may be evidence of contributing to terrorism, right? 
said by article :
The Treasury, for instance, built its database "to look at all the world's financial transactions" and gave the NSA access to it about 15 years ago, said a former NSA official. The data include domestic and international money flows between bank accounts and credit-card information,
...
Prior to 9/11, the database was used to pursue specific leads, but afterward, the effort was expanded to hunt for suspicious patterns.
Through the Treasury, the NSA also can access the database of the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication, or Swift
...
Article here.
be careful what you ask for, you might just get it.
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Spy
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NE | Good article. Thanks. |
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mikenolan7
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Torrance, CA | reply to EGeezer
I am awaiting the day when an executive gets brought down by his/her own wiretaps, like a kid waiting for Christmas. It's only a matter of time. |
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Rocky67
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Orange, CA | Somebody's wiretap just got Eliot Spitzer.  |
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DownTheShore
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| said by Rocky67  :Somebody's wiretap just got Eliot Spitzer. "No more Mr. Nice Guy, no more Mr. Clean..."
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SilverSurfer
join:2007-08-19
| reply to EGeezer
said by EGeezer :Perhaps political conservatives and folks in the corporate world might see privacy as an issue now that Clinton, Obama or someone else on the political "other side" may be elected and use these powers to ferret out anti-trust collaboration, unregistered firearms ownership, underground economy activity and other things presently going unmonitored, undiscovered or untaxed by government. Oh come on. The newly elected Democratic majority who were supposed to "do something" are the same rubberstamps they replaced. Do you really believe Obama or Hillary will actually be worth a damn? For chrissake, neither of them can even commit to a side on the telecom immunity nonsense.
Whether Democrat/Republican, they're all the same bunch of grossly overpaid, ivory-tower slugs whose sole focus in life is to hold onto to their cush jobs and suck the public teat as long as possible.  |
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jvmorris
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| I think you missed EGeezer's point: His thesis is that the Democrats if elected (and especially with a supermajority in either the House or Senate) will do precisely the same thing with all this unfettered information they are collected as they fear the Bush Administration is currently doing.
The only distinction being that they will do it in such a manner as to satisfy a Democratic agenda.
EGeezer has been quite consistent in his posts on this subject: Neither party should have unfettered access to this kind of information as it is entirely too likely to be abused.
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said by EGeezer :Perhaps political conservatives and folks in the corporate world might see privacy as an issue now that Clinton, Obama or someone else on the political "other side" may be elected People with strong political motives often make conversations about privacy (from the government) issue difficult. Complaining about government attcks on privacy is wrongly protrayed now as Bush-bashing. If a Democrat is elected President lots of politically-oriented folks will change their stances on government attacks on privacy, it'll be portrayed then as Obama-bashing or Clinton-bashing.
It's not a political issue and never was. Invading privacy and the government's desire for more information on more people expand as rapidly as technology. Ethics lag far behind, as do effective restraints.
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EGeezer
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| said by fatness :Complaining about government attcks on privacy is wrongly protrayed now as Bush-bashing. If a Democrat is elected President lots of politically-oriented folks will change their stances on government attacks on privacy, it'll be portrayed then as Obama-bashing or Clinton-bashing. It's not a political issue and never was. Invading privacy and the government's desire for more information on more people expand as rapidly as technology. Ethics lag far behind, as do effective restraints. That's what I was trying to point out in my comment - The same people who for the past several years have supported these creeping power grabs will be screaming about their abuse and overreach if the "other side" takes over the government. I'm guessing that the smell of coffee is beginning to waft into the noses of knee-jerk supporters who will soon wake up to the reality that someone besides their trusted leaders may soon wield these powers.
Government is never satisfied with "enough" power. It always wants "more", and never relinquishes what's been given it, even if given temporarily.
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major marco
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|  reply to jvmorris
said by jvmorris :The only distinction being that they will do it in such a manner as to satisfy a Democratic agenda. Which is apparently identical to the Republican agenda from what I've seen. How are the Dems standing out from the rubberstamps when they are current majority? They have the popular will of the people not to give the telecoms amnesty and still they waffle/hem/haw/cave to exactly what Bush wants. How much more of a mandate is needed when something like 70% of the population that gives a shit about our rule of law want it to apply to everyone, not just those who can afford it.
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Blackbird
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| reply to EGeezer
I've never met anyone who bought a car with a 300hp engine who then went out and had it modified to deliver only 120hp. I've never met anyone who pulled out the 300amp service entrance to his house and installed a 100amp panel. I've never come across a policeman who elected to routinely leave his service revolver in his locker when going on patrol and take a truncheon instead - nor a chief who directed such a thing. I've never encountered a military jet-jockey who wanted to deploy in a combat aircraft with a lower rate of climb than what he was currently flying. And I've yet to come across a political leader who conscientiously attempts to dump any of the tools of power he and the faceless masses of government minions have discovered make easier their exercise of governance or their peristance in power. No matter what they may have said along the campaign trails. Historical Principle #1 of governments: if the power is present, it will be used by whoever has control - sooner or later!
Human nature inherently gravitates to the personal benefits of power and the use of power - power in any form, whether for doing one's job or for simply enjoying the trappings invariably associated with the possession of power. This is the root that feeds the "power corrupts" political adage: possession of power changes one's point of view about power. People who may have been opposed to certain forms of power become strongly addicted to it when they come into control of (and benefit from) it. One simply cannot count on "self control" or "higher thinking" from those in control of it when power is involved... there absolutely have to be checks and balances - and courts willing to enforce them. And limitations on the creation of power and the granting of it to government, in the first place.
Conservatives need to realize this. Liberals need to understand it. Libertarians must grasp it. If government assumes powers today under one political persuasion, those powers absolutely will be exercised by those of other political persuasions in the future. And those means and directions of exercise will not necessarily be bounded by the conceptual framework of those who initially caused government to assume the powers - in fact, they'll likely be exercised in previously unimagined directions. This isn't about Red and Blue labels... it's about how all of us are going to live out the next 50 years or so - and under what levels of govermental power and intrusions.
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Its a Secret
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U B Funny | Well said. |
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jvmorris
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Reston, VA | reply to Blackbird
Well said #2 |
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EGeezer
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said by Blackbird :I've never met anyone who bought a car with a 300hp engine who then went out and had it modified to deliver only 120hp. My granddad bought a new '56 Chevy, bright red. He wanted something with "pep" and this one was on the lot. It had the 265CI Duntov with cam, 2 4BBl carbs and overdrive transmission/4:11 rear end. Pop loved the "pep" but traded the twin carbs for a single 4BBL because they used too much gas.
Seriously, great observations and writing in your post Thumbs up!
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Blackbird
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| said by EGeezer :...My granddad bought a new '56 Chevy, bright red. He wanted something with "pep" and this one was on the lot. It had the 265CI Duntov with cam, 2 4BBl carbs and overdrive transmission/4:11 rear end. Pop loved the "pep" but traded the twin carbs for a single 4BBL because they used too much gas. ... I was over in your "neck of the woods" this past week and received that 20" snow-dump that made the news reports... Berlin, Strasburg, Charm... Amish country. Interesting thing, though. As the storm got really bad, the Amish with their 1hp buggies couldn't make it up the hills and had to park their buggies at other houses and walk themselves and their animals home through the drifts. My car with its 120 horses under the hood did quite nicely, though - until the snow simply got way too deep and I stayed put. That's a nice thing about power - it does things you can't do when you lack it. On the other hand, at the bottom of the big hill on top of which I was staying, there was a large snowplow that got crosswise coming up that hill and augured deep into a very large snowbank for most of the storm's duration... with a lot more power than my little car could ever dream of, let alone compared with a single Amish horse. And that's a danger of power - its attraction leads you to attempt things you'd never try otherwise, especially when the situation and common sense logically direct greater restraint or a different course of action entirely. So it is with the creation and use of power by government...
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guitarzan
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| reply to jvmorris
Jvmorris
I attempted to make that same assertion quote:
The only distinction being that they will do it in such a manner as to satisfy a Democratic agenda.
in this post.
»Does the White House have immunity?
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It's easier to manipulate non-religious people, Ever hear of Communism?
With out religion your are more suceptable to manipulation. Look at china, they banned religion. It's much easier to manipulate people who don't have any religious convictions. |
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guitarzan
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| reply to EGeezer
said by EGeezer :]That's what I was trying to point out in my comment - The same people who for the past several years have supported these creeping power grabs will be screaming about their abuse and overreach if the "other side" takes over the government. I'm guessing that the smell of coffee is beginning to waft into the noses of knee-jerk supporters who will soon wake up to the reality that someone besides their trusted leaders may soon wield these powers. Government is never satisfied with "enough" power. It always wants "more", and never relinquishes what's been given it, even if given temporarily. Yup, now that the ball is on the other side of the court. I can't wait to see these same "pros" defend the legislation (illegal wiretapping) they fully supported. Wonder if they have any cheese to go with that whine. 
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It's easier to manipulate non-religious people, Ever hear of Communism?
With out religion your are more suceptable to manipulation. Look at china, they banned religion. It's much easier to manipulate people who don't have any religious convictions. |
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| reply to guitarzan
said by guitarzan :Jvmorris I attempted to make that same assertion quote:
The only distinction being that they will do it in such a manner as to satisfy a Democratic agenda.
in this post. » Does the White House have immunity? Typical political post.
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guitarzan
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| Sure its typical Fatness, yet its true. You should know by now politically where I stand. Yes, I hate communism, socialism, Liberalism. Those ideals are mainly held beliefs of those on the left side of the aisle. The right side of the aisle have those same friggin kooks in Washington as well. I hate them also.
Right side = loss of privacy, domestic terrorism spying.
Left side = Loss of 2nd Amendment + loss of privacy.
GWB started the shredding of our Constitution. The Democrats will finish off whatever remains and usurp even more power. Typical gears of politics.
The people heaping praise upon GWB, in that he could do no wrong with the NSA domestic spy program. Will cry like babies, now that the "Democrats" have all that "unchecked" power, which the GOP will turn into a political football.
After all its not like this spy program will be abused without any oversight. Pfft, how many abuse cases have come to light already under GWB WITH a Democratic controlled Congressional majority.
All I'm going to say is, let the crying begin. The ones who feathered their nest in favor of domestic spying, let them lie in it now. They could not see the forest for the trees then, so now its time to learn that lesson the hard way now.
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It's easier to manipulate non-religious people, Ever hear of Communism?
With out religion your are more suceptable to manipulation. Look at china, they banned religion. It's much easier to manipulate people who don't have any religious convictions. |
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jaykaykay
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Every agenda is the same on either side. Power corrupts power, and whether Democrat or Republican, power is still spelled with a capital "P" in our society. No longer is what is done done for the good of the public/Country.
To quote Ben Franklin once again, as his words ring mightily in my mind:
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve liberty nor security.
After our officials chipping away, little by little, what this country stood for, I no longer expect much else than what has been happening and will continue to do so, no matter who is in power. Bush may have brought it all to the forefront, but it's been happening behind the scenes for years by the NSA and others.
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