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Forums » Lessig on US Pirate Party » Judge the book by its cover -- and read it anyway
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funchords
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reply to supergirl
Re: Judge the book by its cover -- and read it anyway

Welcome to the debate. You've earned your wings. Your interp can a bit right or wrong, but now you're read up.

Mickey is still copyrighted even without the Circle-C on his site. The interesting thing about his case is the unique settlement he struck with Disney -- and the implications in an almost read-between-the-lines kind of way.

The SCOTUS made the burden of proof for Fair Use on the Plaintiff to prove it's commercial interests were damaged in the Betamax case and upheld that standard in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc. (1994).
Now I've learned something! Since the tests are subjective, I wonder if this is useful as precedent. This places a very, very high burden on the plaintiff. Why wasn't it used in that recent $200K+ RIAA filesharing case last year?

Other than parody, it can't be for money.
That cannot be correct. Movies use snippets of songs and video all the time without paying royalties (licensed songs are listed in the credits differently). It can be for money. Go back to four tests:
1. Commercial use - for profit by Fox
2. CBS game-show playing on a television screen in set background behind actors
3. Brief shot (about 10 seconds of a 30 minute episode, used as device to create a clue in a Fox fictional drama)
4. zero to theoretically improved (the game show is not in syndication, if it were to later go into syndication, the use in the drama may add a trivial interest)

Okay, judge, READY, SET, GO DECIDE!! (and that's how Fair Use works).

See Folsom v. Marsh, 9 F.Cas. 342 (1841) on copying a book and calling it "fair use." It didn't work.
No, but the amount used is only an element. How do you use just "passages" of a drawing of Mickey Mouse? In the case of a drawing, it's typical for the whole image to be used.

I used to make learning tapes for singers who could not read music, but who licensed the tune (through the purchase of the sheet music). My copy of that entire work, I claim, was Fair Use because I degraded the audio quality by separating the audio channel for the part being trained, the sampling was at a sub-commercial-grade level. The artistic interpretations were removed and the interpretation was generally slower and more pedantic than indicated so that the singer could learn the notes and then make these artistic corrections later. The whole tune was "copied" (recorded, no less). Would it fly? My guess is that I removed enough commercial value from my result that it couldn't possibly harm the original any more or less than the licensor did by selling the sheet music in the first place. But there's no way to know until a judge says so, despite my claim.

SO, going back to something you said before -- is it still like stealing a car?
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.


supergirl

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said by funchords See Profile :

Welcome to the debate. You've earned your wings. Your interp can a bit right or wrong, but now you're read up.

Mickey is still copyrighted even without the Circle-C on his site. The interesting thing about his case is the unique settlement he struck with Disney -- and the implications in an almost read-between-the-lines kind of way.

The SCOTUS made the burden of proof for Fair Use on the Plaintiff to prove it's commercial interests were damaged in the Betamax case and upheld that standard in Campbell v. Acuff-Rose Music, Inc. (1994).
Now I've learned something! Since the tests are subjective, I wonder if this is useful as precedent. This places a very, very high burden on the plaintiff. Why wasn't it used in that recent $200K+ RIAA filesharing case last year?

The SCOTUS decision gave the weight to the 4th rule. I never said Judges weren't stupid. But, filesharing certainly harms commercial interests (hence what a reasonable person would believe), so the Judge nailed her. The spoliation of that HD really killed her though.

Other than parody, it can't be for money.
That cannot be correct. Movies use snippets of songs and video all the time without paying royalties (licensed songs are listed in the credits differently). It can be for money. Go back to four tests:
1. Commercial use - for profit by Fox
2. CBS game-show playing on a television screen in set background behind actors
3. Brief shot (about 10 seconds of a 30 minute episode, used as device to create a clue in a Fox fictional drama)
4. zero to theoretically improved (the game show is not in syndication, if it were to later go into syndication, the use in the drama may add a trivial interest)

Okay, judge, READY, SET, GO DECIDE!! (and that's how Fair Use works).

No, you're wrong. Movies pay for use of music in the movies. They pay a license fee usually. These are the test:
1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.


See Folsom v. Marsh, 9 F.Cas. 342 (1841) on copying a book and calling it "fair use." It didn't work.
No, but the amount used is only an element. How do you use just "passages" of a drawing of Mickey Mouse? In the case of a drawing, it's typical for the whole image to be used.

No, that court decision said taking someone else's book and selling it as your own (this case split into two books) was NOT Fair Use. You'd have to pay a license for Mickey Mouse's drawing if used in a book. A book on pop culture might be "educational" so no license required (permission still required). Ask the child care center (or pre-school) that painted Mickey and others on their building with NO license. Disney sued and they had to remove them since they were using it for profit. Florida court decision. You'd probably have to use Westlaw to find that.

I used to make learning tapes for singers who could not read music, but who licensed the tune (through the purchase of the sheet music). My copy of that entire work, I claim, was Fair Use because I degraded the audio quality by separating the audio channel for the part being trained, the sampling was at a sub-commercial-grade level. The artistic interpretations were removed and the interpretation was generally slower and more pedantic than indicated so that the singer could learn the notes and then make these artistic corrections later. The whole tune was "copied" (recorded, no less). Would it fly? My guess is that I removed enough commercial value from my result that it couldn't possibly harm the original any more or less than the licensor did by selling the sheet music in the first place. But there's no way to know until a judge says so, despite my claim.

Based on the interpretation, you were using it for "educational" purposes. The fact you degraded the recording would be a good indication you weren't using it for just commercial gain. Textbooks are commercial gain no doubt but "educational." (permission still required in textbooks though no fee paid).

SO, going back to something you said before -- is it still like stealing a car?
The SCOTUS decision is final. Commercial interests suffer with stealing music or movies or software. So, yes, stealing the latest Britney (God knows why???), movie, or software on a torrent is just like stealing a car. They're are criminal penalties for all just rarely prosecuted since the U.S. Attorney system has big fish to fry and civil lawsuits usually do the trick. Although rarely done, stealing a movie is punishable by 5 years in jail and a $250,000 fine per occurrence. See that little FBI warning on DVDs.
--
Saving the world keeps me busy. However, I find Earth very primitive from my home planet of Krypton.
-Supergirl


funchords
Hello
Premium,MVM
join:2001-03-11
Washington, DC
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My Fair Use example (a Fox show using a CBS game show as a plot device) is exclusive of a licensed work. (If it were licensed, it wouldn't be an infringement, and Fair Use would apply in no way.)

Likewise, Fair Use never requires permission. Permission is license.

I think we're reaching agreement, for the most part.

Vehicle theft is rather actively prosecuted as a criminal matter -- it doesn't matter if the infringement is by a single person or as part of a conspiratorial enterprise, for monetary gain or for kicks. Copyright, on the other hand, is most frequently handled as a civil matter.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
"We don't throttle any traffic," -Charlie Douglas, Comcast spokesman, on this report.
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