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Noah Vail
Serial Thread Killer
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join:2004-12-10
Lorton, VA
·Verizon BroadbandA..
·VoicePulse

reply to pnh102
I used to see it that way...

said by pnh102 See Profile :

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.
That was while we were arguing over a warrant for one call at a time.

Today, we are cloning all the internet traffic running through peer pipes, and handing the FBI unrestricted access to all Verizon traffic.

This is a pretty good definition of the government spying on all of us. I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.

NV
--
Abortion: A Republican Plot to Thin the Liberal Herd.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
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said by Noah Vail See Profile :

I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.
I think too many people in the USA have no idea what it like to live under a tyrannical, repressive government. I still stand by my view that no one's rights have been violated on a scale major enough to make the claim that we have no rights.

It isn't like the government is rounding up all the people in this country who disagree with the government and making them disappear. The government isn't shutting down websites or newspapers critical of it. The government isn't doing anything infringing more than it has in recent years. I don't see any systemic, prolonged violation of our rights under this administration compared to previous administrations.

I do think though that the Democrat party, in its neverending quest to secure our defeat, is doing everything it can to embolden our enemies. By putting a stop to the government's ability to wiretap, it enables people who would want to do us harm to use another means of communication to do so.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!


en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
What other country have you lived in to experience this ?
--
Canada = Hollywood North


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
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join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
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said by en102 See Profile :

What other country have you lived in to experience this ?
I don't have to live anywhere else to know.

I do however, read about the daily lives of people living in places like the old Soviet bloc, North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, and Cuba to know that in the USA, we have it very good.

You don't have to pee on an electric fence to know that it is generally a bad idea.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!


en102
Canadian, eh?

join:2001-01-26
Valencia, CA
Most G8 countries have it pretty good.
And not to sidetrack, but if the U.S. could cut its oil consumption to it being an export commodity, it would be even better.
--
Canada = Hollywood North

Red Dawn

join:2004-12-13
Dallas, TX

reply to pnh102
I think it's sad when people such as yourself go to "extremes" to try to equate this to what North Korea, Iran, or other countries do. It is not the same. I will say this though, you DO NOT know what information the government has on you, nor how it affects your life. Nor do you know who has access to that information, who you call, what sites you visit, who all of your family, friends are, what you like to eat, etc, etc. All of this in the wrong hands, could hurt you in some way. As to our government not rounding up people with no due process, uh, have you heard of "Rendition", this is very real and the CIA does it every day. If they even think for a sec you got something they want, they take you and whisk you away to some foreign land to "extract" whatever information they can. This isn't hollywood, this is real, being done to american citizens and those aboard with NO oversight. There are many government programs being run by the NSA, again with little to no oversight, to get as much information, no matter how small, on every single person living in this country. So even if you don't have a red flag, they want everything on you, no matter what it is, why? Power corrupts my friend, you should know that, look how our government run's itself. With no oversight, you do not know what could, or will happen with all of this information nor how many people could be hurt through the process. Don't we learn from mistakes? Everyday innocent people are thrown to prison for crimes they did not do. Yes back in the day it was a joke to say they were all guilty, but now days, all of us know a good number of people behind bars shouldn't be there, never did anything. That line will also be broken if we continue to allow agencies full reign over anything they want. Not a matter of if, but when.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

Yawn.

There's this key, it's called "Enter." Use it.

As for your post, it is perfectly valid to illustrate how repressive regimes operate and then compare them to what is going on in the USA to conclude that we still have our rights.

When people like you begin to disappear or are otherwise censored on a mass scale, then I will agree that we have have a serious problem.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!

CableConvert
Premium
join:2003-12-05
Atlanta, GA

reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 See Profile :

said by Noah Vail See Profile :

I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.
I think too many people in the USA have no idea what it like to live under a tyrannical, repressive government. I still stand by my view that no one's rights have been violated on a scale major enough to make the claim that we have no rights.

It isn't like the government is rounding up all the people in this country who disagree with the government and making them disappear. The government isn't shutting down websites or newspapers critical of it. The government isn't doing anything infringing more than it has in recent years. I don't see any systemic, prolonged violation of our rights under this administration compared to previous administrations.

I do think though that the Democrat party, in its neverending quest to secure our defeat, is doing everything it can to embolden our enemies. By putting a stop to the government's ability to wiretap, it enables people who would want to do us harm to use another means of communication to do so.
Yet

Kevin Dupuy

join:2007-04-07
Addis, LA

reply to pnh102
1st: No one is saying US citizens have 'no rights'. And we are lucky and fortunate to live an a mostly free country. Here's the thing: In America, there should be NO way th government should be able to take away any rights, especially those written into the Bill of Rights!

By the way, I've been seeing 'scare-mongering' ads on TV like "THe Senate approved the bill to hear what terrorists are planning. Why hasn't the House? Call your representative and tell them to pass the "Terrorist Surveillances Act". I wanted to call my Rep. and thank him for not approving the spy program, but of course he's retired and we're in the middle of an election for a new one.
--
Because there is no patch for human stupidity. Or my DIRECTV Plus DVR.

amigo_boy

join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
·magicjack.com
·EarthLink

said by Kevin Dupuy See Profile :

th government should be able to take away any rights, especially those written into the Bill of Rights!
The right under discussion is privacy which doesn't exist in the Constitution. It wasn't recognized until 1964 as part of a case involving a woman's right to access birth control, and it was based upon a relatively new concept of imposing the Bill of Rights against state infringement which began around 1924.

The protection against search and seizure only says "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Obviously some are reasonable.

I'm not arguing against privacy or better protections against searches. Just that it's not as simple as some people wish it were.

Mark


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

reply to Kevin Dupuy
said by Kevin Dupuy See Profile :

By the way, I've been seeing 'scare-mongering' ads on TV like "THe Senate approved the bill to hear what terrorists are planning.
What is wrong with the ad? What it says is completely true.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!


Tzale
Ron Paul 2008 - Proud Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online

reply to Noah Vail
said by Noah Vail See Profile :

said by pnh102 See Profile :

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.
That was while we were arguing over a warrant for one call at a time.

Today, we are cloning all the internet traffic running through peer pipes, and handing the FBI unrestricted access to all Verizon traffic.

This is a pretty good definition of the government spying on all of us. I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.

NV
A good citizen doesn't "support" the Government. A good citizen CRITICIZES the Government... Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers said it themselves... The Government should fear YOU, you should NOT fear the Government.

-Tzale
--
Neoconservatives (G.W.B) are not real conservatives. A conservative believes in defending the Constitution. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. - RON PAUL 2008 »www.usconstitution.net/const.html

SilentMan

join:2002-07-15
New York, NY

reply to pnh102
said by pnh102 See Profile :

said by en102 See Profile :

What other country have you lived in to experience this ?
I don't have to live anywhere else to know.

I do however, read about the daily lives of people living in places like the old Soviet bloc, North Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, and Cuba to know that in the USA, we have it very good.

You don't have to pee on an electric fence to know that it is generally a bad idea.
Venezuela? You have been watching too much Faux News.

Oh! Millions of energy saving light bulbs have been installed in Venezuelan homes and every single one of them contains a microphone so that the Government can listen in to what people say in their houses. /sarcasm


mech1164
I'Ll Be Back

join:2001-11-19
Lodi, NJ

reply to Tzale
said by Tzale See Profile :

said by Noah Vail See Profile :

said by pnh102 See Profile :

... except for the fact that I work in an area that would probably be in the fallout zone of a terrorist attack.
That was while we were arguing over a warrant for one call at a time.

Today, we are cloning all the internet traffic running through peer pipes, and handing the FBI unrestricted access to all Verizon traffic.

This is a pretty good definition of the government spying on all of us. I have moved from support of my government to defending myself from my government.

NV
A good citizen doesn't "support" the Government. A good citizen CRITICIZES the Government... Thomas Jefferson and our founding fathers said it themselves... The Government should fear YOU, you should NOT fear the Government.

-Tzale
Quite true, but what is the first responsibility of government? To protect its people from threats. Be that external or internal. By what the Dems in the House are doing we can't do neither. BTW for all those people that cry out Privacy, PSST they don't care. You are not that sanctimoniously worth it to them.


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

reply to SilentMan
said by SilentMan See Profile :

Venezuela? You have been watching too much Faux News.
And if you watched any news at all you might not sound like such an idiot when you say that. Perhaps you should try googling for criticisms of Hugo Chavez's human rights record before you spew more verbal diarrhea.

Oh, and I'm adding Bolivia to that list. The fact that 4 eastern states of that country want to secede from the rest of Bolivia is also telling.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!

ackman

join:2000-10-04
Acworth, GA
·AT&T Southeast

said by pnh102 See Profile :

said by SilentMan See Profile :

Venezuela? You have been watching too much Faux News.
And if you watched any news at all you might not sound like such an idiot when you say that. Perhaps you should try googling for criticisms of Hugo Chavez's human rights record before you spew more verbal diarrhea.

Oh, and I'm adding Bolivia to that list. The fact that 4 eastern states of that country want to secede from the rest of Bolivia is also telling.
Any you're feeling pretty confident in the United States' record on human rights? When did we let women start to vote? How about how we treat people of color? Slavery really wasn't that long ago. More recently, we unilaterally invaded another sovereign country and killed their leader, violating international law. How many hundreds of thousands of people of Iraqis did we kill in that one? Estimates are as high as 1 million and as low as 300,000. I don't think those were all Bush's "terrorists". Oh, and Chavez? Yep, he was giving low cost heating oil to the poor in our country. You might say he was doing it to shove a stick in devil Bush's eye. But the difference between Chavez and Bush is at least Chavez was helping people in the US. Did you know the US has more people in prison than any other country in the world? Let's not even talk about the alleged "terrorists" we have kept in prison without any right to a trial. How about the ones we rendered and tortured, then let go when we found out they were innocent. Yep, we're just a pillar of human rights.

I'm proud to be an American, I'm ashamed and embarrassed of our government.


Tzale
Ron Paul 2008 - Proud Conservative
Premium
join:2004-01-06
NJ, USA
·Verizon FIOS
·Optimum Online


edit:
March 12th, @11:00PM

reply to mech1164
said by mech1164 See Profile :

Quite true, but what is the first responsibility of government? To protect its people from threats. Be that external or internal. By what the Dems in the House are doing we can't do neither. BTW for all those people that cry out Privacy, PSST they don't care. You are not that sanctimoniously worth it to them.
The Government obviously is failing to do that... Have you ever been to the Home Depot in Lodi on a weekday morning??? A lot of illegal Mexicans asking for a job (and takes away American jobs)...

Taking away our freedoms in the name of security is NOT protection. It's a VIOLATION of our rights... Of course, you need to use some common sense.

-Tzale
--
Neoconservatives (G.W.B) are not real conservatives. A conservative believes in defending the Constitution. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. - RON PAUL 2008 »www.usconstitution.net/const.html

jc100

join:2002-04-10
·RoadRunner Cable

reply to pnh102
Damn.. there was this site.. hummm that the government shut down in violation of first amendment rights.. Let's see.. Wikileaks... O ya, guess they are targeting people.

Or how about that group... let's see... Peace Fresno, where the government sent a cop to spy on Teachers and Professionals who spoke up against the government. I guess that doesn't constitute targeting everyone?

Ah ya, it must be nice living in your delusional world. Does it come with blanket bliss and ignorance?


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

reply to ackman
said by ackman See Profile :

Any you're feeling pretty confident in the United States' record on human rights? When did we let women start to vote? How about how we treat people of color?
Absolutely. I would never say we are a perfect country, but we do better for people here than just about every other country. Anyone who feels different is free to leave, which unlike the countries I listed, we make very easy to do.
said by ackman See Profile :

I'm proud to be an American, I'm ashamed and embarrassed of our government.
Sure you are. If you are that proud, you would go read up on the facts surrounding the Iraq War as well as Hugo Chavez before you take the Simon Cowell approach to sticking up for "your" country.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!


pnh102
Reptiles Are Cuddly And Pretty
Premium
join:2002-05-02
Mount Airy, MD
·Comcast

reply to jc100
said by jc100 See Profile :

Damn.. there was this site.. hummm that the government shut down in violation of first amendment rights.. Let's see.. Wikileaks... O ya, guess they are targeting people.
Ahh yes... and if you actually bothered to read up on the case, it was not the Bush administration that did this, but an idiot judge in California. The ruling was also reversed and the site is back up.
--
This isn't fair! I was only supposed to hate just ONE presidential candidate!
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