Ron Paul
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join:2008-01-11
Seattle, WA | reply to littlemeow
Re: Conyers is my hero
Agreed. Finally showing some backbone.
Doesn't it bother even the most hardcore Bush supporters that everything is a state secret and a matter of national security?
His stonewalling tactics make Nixon look like a Boy Scout. |
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GOLFnSUN
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| said by Ron Paul  :Agreed. Finally showing some backbone. Doesn't it bother even the most hardcore Bush supporters that everything is a state secret and a matter of national security? His stonewalling tactics make Nixon look like a Boy Scout. NO
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firephoto
KDE
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said by Ron Paul :Doesn't it bother even the most hardcore Bush supporters that everything is a state secret and a matter of national security? No, it's too much to understand for simple minded folk. No worries if the gov't listens to them talking about nascar and the new hooters waitress. |
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GOLFnSUN
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| said by firephoto :No, it's too much to understand for simple minded folk. No worries if the gov't listens to them talking about nascar and the new hooters waitress. Or reading posts like this.
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TScheisskopf
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When they finally get around to draining the Porta-Pottie that is this administration, they are gonna find some really shocking things hiding in the tank.
One of their goals will be accomplished, however: The Legacy of Nixon will be rehabilitated, albeit by The Law of Unintended Effects. |
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woody7
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Why don' t you "telecom" fanboyz ever answer why it is ok to snoop on americans in this country without the proper subpoenas, other than your tired old "lawyers are pond sucking scum bottom feeders and they just want to bleed the corporations dry" routine? Gee Didn't Trent lott's brother in law just get nailed for bribery? Isn't he a bottom feeder, and you don't hear the repubs even mentioning him. You keep post your support for Bushes wiretap immunity, but you can't give a good reason why it is ok, other than your tired old statements. Which I might say is right to do so, because someone somewhere fought for it, now you want to give it away for monetary reasons, why don't you answer my question incite fully, or just move on.
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GOLFnSUN
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| said by woody7 :Why don' t you "telecom" fanboyz ever answer why it is ok to snoop on americans in this country without the proper subpoenas, other than your tired old "lawyers are pond sucking scum bottom feeders and they just want to bleed the corporations dry" routine? Gee Didn't Trent lott's brother in law just get nailed for bribery? Isn't he a bottom feeder, and you don't hear the repubs even mentioning him. You keep post your support for Bushes wiretap immunity, but you can't give a good reason why it is ok, other than your tired old statements. Which I might say is right to do so, because someone somewhere fought for it, now you want to give it away for monetary reasons, why don't you answer my question incite fully, or just move on. I'll say this once to save you from future useless demands for answers. I answer whatever I feel like answering and when someone DEMANDS answers I am even less likely to feel the need to reply. Don't like that, then ignore me. And I am not going anywhere.
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jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | Which is basically rhetoric for there is no justifying the inexcusable so I'll play the "deaf, dumb, and blind" card to avoid having to concoct a pseudo answer that won't explain it anyway. |
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Noah Vail
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Lorton, VA
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| reply to GOLFnSUN
said by GOLFnSUN :I'll say this once to save you from future useless demands for answers. I answer whatever I feel like answering and when someone DEMANDS answers I am even less likely to feel the need to reply. Don't like that, then ignore me. And I am not going anywhere. Even when you're posting, you're not going anywhere. You bring up a debatable position, but will only debate it up to and not past the first stage.
If your position has real substance, why wouldn't you want to teach it? If your belief would benefit society, don't you have a civic duty to get it out there?
I come here to have my frame of mind challenged. I am actively conservative, but a few issues have come up that have me arguing against the Republicans. You have the opposing view and appear to be convicted yourself.
However, when you are challenged (which is the method we use to draw out others beliefs in detail) you clam up and provide no substance past the quote of the day. Are you not able to enunciate your convictions in detail? If so, how are you able to construct your initial posts as well as you do?
Talking points without depth are just rhetoric. We're supposed to use them as bait to bring others to a place where we can present our core beliefs in detail to them. You throw out the hook, and then give nothing. That's a betrayal of expectations.
As a conservative, don't you believe in advancing conservatism? Something led you to your beliefs, and if you don't want to share what that is, you might want to stop hinting about it, via one-liners.
Frankly, you've become a bit of a tease and it's starting to piss people off.
I really don't think you're an empty suit. but you are giving the appearance of one. Sometimes you have to bear your soul and then have the courage to take whatever comes of it.
NV
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tc1uscg
join:2005-03-09
Saint Clair Shores, MI
1 edit | reply to woody7
said by woody7 :Why don' t you "telecom" fanboyz ever answer why it is ok to snoop on americans in this country without the proper subpoenas, other than your tired old "lawyers are pond sucking scum bottom feeders and they just want to bleed the corporations dry" routine? Gee Didn't Trent lott's brother in law just get nailed for bribery? Isn't he a bottom feeder, and you don't hear the repubs even mentioning him. You keep post your support for Bushes wiretap immunity, but you can't give a good reason why it is ok, other than your tired old statements. Which I might say is right to do so, because someone somewhere fought for it, now you want to give it away for monetary reasons, why don't you answer my question incite fully, or just move on. It's one thing for TELCO's to be involved with warrant less wire taping but when TELCO's install equipment to ALLOW our govt to monitor ANYTHING they wish WITHOUT getting permission is wrong. Why should verizon, at&t or sprint install these little "boxes" at their central offices just so the govt can have free reign? Let them sit outside, tap into fiber and/or cable and monitor away. If telco's have no knowledge of what's going on, they can't be held liable. Problem solved. So, if I was these telco's, I would be ripping out all those orange little gigavue boxes installed for the NSA then play dumb.  |
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woody7
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I'm not a liberal or a conservative, when I posed the question, I was trying figure out the point of view, but I couldn't get past the rhetoric. As this is a pretty open place to discuss issues, and it is your right to feel as you do, and say or not say what you will, and that should never be taken away, maybe you "TK Junk Mail" just throw stuff out and try to evoke a certain reaction. Some of us would really like to understand the rational,just not the "blind obedience" that some seem to follow. Peace
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supergirl
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said by woody7 :Why don' t you "telecom" fanboyz ever answer why it is ok to snoop on americans in this country without the proper subpoenas, other than your tired old "lawyers are pond sucking scum bottom feeders and they just want to bleed the corporations dry" routine? Gee Didn't Trent lott's brother in law just get nailed for bribery? Isn't he a bottom feeder, and you don't hear the repubs even mentioning him. You keep post your support for Bushes wiretap immunity, but you can't give a good reason why it is ok, other than your tired old statements. Which I might say is right to do so, because someone somewhere fought for it, now you want to give it away for monetary reasons, why don't you answer my question incite fully, or just move on. In this, they (the NSA, DIA, CIA, FBI) are looking for patterns of code words. I doubt you talking about the latest movie is a pattern of code. Once they, probably computers, find patterns of code, humans listen in on those people.
I don't get the big issue of all this. Maybe change the FISA court to conform with the new threat. Judges there should be able to see what they are doing as well.
Exactly what law-abiding American has been affected? NONE.
Give the Telecoms immunity if only the gov't is doing the spying not their employees.
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81399672
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join:2006-05-17
Los Angeles, CA
| reply to GOLFnSUN
Understand one thing, teleco is not getting their immunity regardless how much you or bush administration demand it. You can support teleco all you want, but in the end they will be found liable in civil court and ordered to billion of dollars in compensation.
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amigo_boy
join:2005-07-22
Tempe, AZ
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said by woody7 :why it is ok to snoop on americans in this country without the proper subpoenas It may not be ok. But, 18 U.S.C. 2511(2)(a)(ii)(B) & 2702(a)(3) & (c) don't require a warrant.
BTW: 18 USC 2511 (2)(a)(ii) holds telco employees to the same penalty you're holding the government to. Why aren't self-styled freedom fighters pressing for Klein to be sued?
Mark |
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joako
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said by GOLFnSUN :I'll say this once to save you from future useless demands for answers. I answer whatever I feel like answering and when someone DEMANDS answers I am even less likely to feel the need to reply. Don't like that, then ignore me. And I am not going anywhere. You my friend are 100% correct. We have no right to demand anything. We are lucky to even be alive. With all the terrorism threats everyone should be monitored 24/7/365 even when they use the bathroom. We have no right other than to actually be alive. If anyone disagrees they should be sent to internment camps as they are infidenls and without a doubt terrorists. Times have changed. The bill of rights was written hundreds of years ago and no longer applies to modern times.
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amigo_boy
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| said by joako :The bill of rights was written hundreds of years ago and no longer applies to modern times. That's really closer to the truth than you're probably willing to admit. The BoR wasn't a bar against State and private infringement. Only Congressional infringement. In 1866 it was extended by the 14th Amendment (in a *huge* shift of power from State sovereignty). But, it wasn't until the 1920s that the Supreme Court recognized this intent.
Over the following 50 years the SC "incorporated" various clauses of the BoR against State and private infringement. Even going so far as recognizing a right of privacy which hadn't been recognized before.
The moral of the story is: When the BoR was expanding far beyond what the Founders envisioned it was ok for them to "no longer apply to modern times." But, if they need to contract, all we hear about is how the BoR is being "erased." (No mention of how they've expanded, and perhaps it's just a balancing act.).
Mark |
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Noah Vail
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| reply to amigo_boy
If I can get a law into the US code mandating your castration, will you support it?
Laws that permit evil, are wrong. Emerson prescribed civil disobedience. It's worth a look.
NV
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guitarzan
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Skytop, PA
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1 edit | reply to supergirl
After the statement made below, how can anyone trust this liar?
Know how he is lying? His lips are moving.
F.B.I. Head Admits Mistakes in Use of Security Act
»www.nytimes.com/2007/03/10/washi···f=slogin
quote:
WASHINGTON, March 9 — Bipartisan outrage erupted on Friday on Capitol Hill as Robert S. Mueller III, the F.B.I. director, conceded that the bureau had improperly used the USA Patriot Act to obtain information about people and businesses.
said by supergirl :I don't get the big issue of all this. Maybe change the FISA court to conform with the new threat. Exactly what law-abiding American has been affected? NONE. Try more than NONE there honey, Bottom line. I doubt the F.B.I and NSA know how many people has been affected themselves.
You know the difference between corrupt politicians, F.B.I, NSA, CIA, in addition to other alphabet soup agencies and criminals in jail? The criminals got caught and are behind behind bars. Most do not wear a badge, yet there are a few who do.
The azzhats breaking laws now are more guilty than the convicts serving time, because they are getting away Scott free and laughing all the way to the bank. All they have to whisper is national security and that blanket hushes up and covers everything, legal or criminal.
Report: FBI abuse of investigative tool continued in 2006 quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI continued in 2006 to badly mishandle letters that it uses to obtain personal records without a court order, according to a Justice Department report released Thursday.
FBI Director Robert Mueller testifes about oversight before a Senate committee last week.
The new report cites "issuance of NSLs [national security letters] without proper authorization, improper requests and unauthorized collection of telephone or Internet e-mail records due to FBI errors or mistakes made by NSL recipients."
But a top department official said significant progress has been made in the past year toward correcting those errors.
Inspector General Glenn Fine said it's too soon to tell if the problems will be eliminated.
FBI Violations May Number 3,000, Official Says
»www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co···921.html
quote:
The Justice Department's inspector general told a committee of angry House members yesterday that the FBI may have violated the law or government policies as many as 3,000 times since 2003 as agents secretly collected the telephone, bank and credit card records of U.S. citizens and foreign nationals residing here.
Inspector General Glenn A. Fine said that according to the FBI's own estimate, as many as 600 of these violations could be "cases of serious misconduct" involving the improper use of "national security letters" to compel telephone companies, banks and credit institutions to produce records.
FBI again admits privacy abuses with National Security Letters
By Bill Freivogel
03/06/2008 3:30 pm quote:
The FBI has acknowledged again that it has abused its National Security Letter authority. This is the fourth straight year that FBI abuses of the letters have been uncovered.
National security letters are administrative subpoenas used by FBI agents to obtain personal records - bank records, credit card records, telephone records, internet traffic etc. - without the involvement of a judge. The number of national security letters issued has gone way up since passage of the Patriot Act. In recent years, the FBI has admitted underestimating how many letters were issued. Now FBI Director Robert Mueller has testified that the letters were used to collect far more private data that the FBI was entitled to receive. Details of the abuses will be in an upcoming report by the Justice Department’s Inspector General.
Mueller says that part of the problem was that private firms turned over more private information than the FBI requested. He also says the abuses occurred before reforms he initiated last year to fix the problem.
»ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gxSQ···8V7R6S01
More FBI Privacy Violations Confirmed
By LARA JAKES JORDAN – Mar 6, 2008
quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) — The FBI acknowledged it improperly accessed Americans' telephone records, credit reports and Internet traffic in 2006, the fourth straight year of privacy abuses resulting from investigations aimed at tracking terrorists and spies.
The breach occurred before the FBI enacted broad new reforms in March 2007 to prevent future lapses, FBI Director Robert Mueller said Wednesday. And it was caused, in part, by banks, telecommunication companies and other private businesses giving the FBI more personal client data than was requested.
Testifying at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, Mueller raised the issue of the FBI's controversial use of so-called national security letters in reference to an upcoming report on the topic by the Justice Department's inspector general.
An audit by the inspector general last year found the FBI demanded personal records without official authorization or otherwise collected more data than allowed in dozens of cases between 2003 and 2005. Additionally, last year's audit found that the FBI had underreported to Congress how many national security letters were requested by more than 4,600.
Now it should be crystal clear what the big issue and threat is. People who can't see this is those who bury their head in the sand in deliberate ignorance or willingly follow the blind with wool pulled over their eyes as good little sheeple.
Gee guys, what was the final tally of the war on drugs?
How is the war on terrorism going? When our borders are still left wide open.
How long has the war in Iraq been dragging on? Still no body of bin laden to show for it?
The war in Iraq is nothing more than a ruse, so people do not pay attention to what is happening right here. How much is the good ole Yankee dollar worth nowadays?
Then Yen is worth more, so is the EU's money. Somebody farts across the street or a block down from Wall Street, stocks plummet. The last domino waiting to fall in order to implement the Amero $$ and the North American Union,
the (plan to merge USA, Canada and Mexico) is the collapse of the stock-market. (All Bush has to say on national TV is: This country is in hot water financially, the whole bottom will drop out in a heartbeat)
and by George they have done a wonderful of keeping it secret and this late in the game the outcome can't be reversed. The plan used to merge the EU, was followed and executed here, perfectly under the guise of national security.
Anyone hark-en back to the days following 9/11? When Congress passed the Patriot Act and the Homeland security Act, just days after 9/11?
When questioned what language those bills contained. The common response house and senate members gave was: "I didn't have time to read it"
So no one had the time to take to read what the bill contained. Yet they passed it.
Do you see what I'm getting at? So, if no one had the time to read it? Where the F**k in hell did they find the time to write it and not know what the bill contained. Yet they passed it. WHY didn't the Press pick up on this glaring front page screamer? THE MSM is in on it also, seeing as they only report or print what they are told. Things that make ya go hmmm.
I would like to say its nothing personal against anyone, however that is what got us into this mess, so yeah, it is personal now.
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woody7
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"I don't get the big issue of all this. Maybe change the FISA court to conform with the new threat. Judges there should be able to see what they are doing as well.
Exactly what law-abiding American has been affected? NONE"
And you have what proof of that?
What part of it is illegal to spy on your own citizens without a warrant( even after the fact:FISA) don't you get?
"Times have changed. The bill of rights was written hundreds of years ago and no longer applies to modern times."
See that is what is great about the document, it still works. All the government had to do was get a warrant before or even after, they chose to not do so. I don't care what they do outside of this country, but inside I have a problem with it. FISA was set up for this very reason. Why is it so hard for people to understand? If I am not mistaken, only the FBI has a legal mandate to "spy" with a warrant on Americans inside of America. The Constitution and Bill of Rights have stood the test of time. This is all being done in secret, so no one has a clue what is actually going on. After all the revelations that are showing up in the news about misconduct by the FBI and probably illegal things, why would you trust this government to have any oversight of themselves?
"I don't get the big issue of all this. Maybe change the FISA court to conform with the new threat. Judges there should be able to see what they are doing as well.
That is what the law that congress just passed would do, minus the telecom part. Mind you contrary to what bush is saying the old law is still in effect. Which by the way he ignored most of the time anyway.
That is the problem,a lot of people, not just "crack pot" liberals care no matter how "insignificant" the violation is. This administration doesn't want anyone to get in their way period.to them us getting upset about losing our rights seems to make us some kind of anti american.If no one knows what is going on, how do you know that they stopped anything? And the few things that they claimed they spoiled turned out to be bogus at best.
Those old scraps of paper are what has separated us from most of the other countries for quite a few years.
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jc100
join:2002-04-10
1 edit | reply to amigo_boy
Amigo boy tries and FAILS. First off, the Bill of Rights was setup to grant state rights and federal rights. States were suppose to maintain their sovereignty with the federal government only doing two things. 1) Defense 2) Print money. That was the original intent of the BOR. Short of that, it was suppose to be left up to EACH INDIVIDUAL state to enact their laws. Somewhere along the line, we accepted the federal government as the means to end all. In this respect, somehow states have unilaterally handed away their rights in favor of the federal government dictating. This is the main issue today in the U.S. While we need federal laws and a federal government, it SHOULD NOT BE FORCING STATES and ENTITIES WITHIN THEM to participate in illegal activities. Yes, these wiretaps and such were illegal. The House didn't grant immunity so now it's for a court to decide this for certain. Similar to this, the Bill of Rights was setup as a means for the people to have a voice, where they often did not. We fled England because of this exact issue. Taxation without representation. If our government wants to take our dollars, it needs to listen to what we have to say. Just because we've tolerated idiots getting into office and then forgetting about us, doesn't make it right. It just means the American people need to get off their ass and demand more of their elected officials. Basically, we dictate what's acceptable as a society, by either allowing or disallowing certain events. Trust me, enough people speaking up has the ability to change a lot. Just look at history. |
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