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Omr
join:2004-01-10
M1S-1B3

Omr to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep

Re: Teksavvy's throttling now? Just a vent, nothing is needed.

Guys lets calm down and let this play out over the holiday, then we can all have a clearer idea as to what is going on and what will be done about it. TekSavvy clearly doesn't throttle ... but clearly the service has been impeded by Bell now but beyond there realm. What they can control is there reaction to Bell ... and sometimes a strong assertive reaction has the ability to change the situation. Maybe a little legalese can make a bigger impression.

I don't understand why Bell would do such a thing as I don't empathize to large corporate interests. A corporation in essence is all about increasing profit margins and beating there previous years profits ... Bell isn't subsidizing the internet so there is no reason why they can't deliver what they sell ... same goes for Rogers.

All is not lost, this looks to be in a legal grey zone or can be spun back for our own benefit. OttawaGal said it best:
quote:
If bell is saying that they are throttling certain area's down to below 30kB/s because they can't cope with the traffic that is sold to you and which is resold to the user. Then a complaint for a cost reduction needs to be put in with Bell since they are admitting they can't provide the service that teksavvy is paying them for, and in turn that cost reduction should also be passed on to the users who are paying for below 30kB/s internet. Don't know if thats possible, or if i made sense, or how they work.

But what I'm saying is, why should Harry in Montreal pay 40$ for 5-meg internet and Dick in Toronto pay 40$ for the same service at dial up speed? Why should Teksavvy have to pay full rate as well when bell admitted they can't supply you?

Will this throttle soon spread out to other area's or is there only a predefined area at the moment? What area's?

Is it perm? Estimated length of time?

Are all the other wholesellers affected as well or only Teksavvy?

Should users believe bells side of it, or should they believe this is another strong-arm tactic by bell similar to when they tried to strong-arm you into removing the login access?

Many questions come to mind...

Good luck with your meeting next week!
[url]»Nexxia throttling?

If Bell can't deliver then the System access fee for TSI should be logically reduced, and the trade-off goes back to the customer. The customer re-invests in Newsgroups and all is merry.
davidbrown9
join:2005-05-31
Toronto, ON

1 edit

davidbrown9

Member

said by Omr:

Guys lets calm down and let this play out over the holiday, then we can all have a clearer idea as to what is going on and what will be done about it. TekSavvy clearly doesn't throttle ... but clearly the service has been impeded by Bell now but beyond there realm. What they can control is there reaction to Bell ... and sometimes a strong assertive reaction has the ability to change the situation. Maybe a little legalese can make a bigger impression.

I don't understand why Bell would do such a thing as I don't empathize to large corporate interests. A corporation in essence is all about increasing profit margins and beating there previous years profits ... Bell isn't subsidizing the internet so there is no reason why they can't deliver what they sell ... same goes for Rogers.

All is not lost, this looks to be in a legal grey zone or can be spun back for our own benefit. OttawaGal said it best:
quote:
If bell is saying that they are throttling certain area's down to below 30kB/s because they can't cope with the traffic that is sold to you and which is resold to the user. Then a complaint for a cost reduction needs to be put in with Bell since they are admitting they can't provide the service that teksavvy is paying them for, and in turn that cost reduction should also be passed on to the users who are paying for below 30kB/s internet. Don't know if thats possible, or if i made sense, or how they work.

But what I'm saying is, why should Harry in Montreal pay 40$ for 5-meg internet and Dick in Toronto pay 40$ for the same service at dial up speed? Why should Teksavvy have to pay full rate as well when bell admitted they can't supply you?

Will this throttle soon spread out to other area's or is there only a predefined area at the moment? What area's?

Is it perm? Estimated length of time?

Are all the other wholesellers affected as well or only Teksavvy?

Should users believe bells side of it, or should they believe this is another strong-arm tactic by bell similar to when they tried to strong-arm you into removing the login access?

Many questions come to mind...

Good luck with your meeting next week!
[url]»Nexxia throttling?

If Bell can't deliver then the System access fee for TSI should be logically reduced, and the trade-off goes back to the customer. The customer re-invests in Newsgroups and all is merry.
I agree calm is the order of the day.

As for legal action iam guessing this would be a waste of time.

You can be sure bell has been planning this for some time and made sure when the contracts were redone that they had a loop hole that would let them do this.

If bell is good at one thing its covering their collective butts.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei to Omr

Premium Member

to Omr
I can understand bandwidth caps. It limits overall demand for bandwidth. (but doesn't limit peaks).

I can understand throttling: it limits peaks in demand since the maximum speed is limited to well below the advertised speeds.

If you throttle, then you shouldn't need bandwidth caps.

If you have bandwidth caps, you shouldn't need throttling.

If the Royal Bank buys a 100mbps link between Toronto an Montreal, would it, as a commercial customer, tolerate that Bell inspect the ethernet packets inside that link and slow down packets that are ATM transactions because Bell is having problems with the Toronto-Montreal total capacity and needs to reduce total usage ?

Similarly, an ISP buys a wholesale 5mbps/800kbps link between a its customer and its router. This is a commercial offering. Bell has no business inspecting packets and slowing down certain types of transactions.

When Bell sells a 5mbps/800kbps link, it needs to deliver on 5mbps/800kbps DATA SPEEDS between the ISP and the ISP's customer.

If Bell's infrastructure is overloaded and Bell can't deliver the network performance ISPs are paying for, then Bell must be made to deliver on the contracted performance.

If the Royal Bank doesn't get the promised 100mbps on all its packets, do you think the Royal Bank will stand idle and take it ? They're probahly going to freeze Bell's accounts until Bell delivers the performance the bank is paying for.

If Bell throttles some packets to only 30kbps instead of 5mbps, then ISPS shoudl only pay 30/5000 % of the GAS fee.

AKA: if instead of delivering 5mbps, Bell only delivers 30kbps, then ISPS should pay about $0.12 instead of $20 for the GAS (PPPOE DSL) service.

If all ISPs get together, they should be able to stop Bell from doing this throttling on THEIR traffic.
BozoTheCl0wn
join:2005-04-01
H0H0H0

BozoTheCl0wn

Member

said by jfmezei:

If the Royal Bank buys a 100mbps link between Toronto an Montreal, would it, as a commercial customer, tolerate that Bell inspect the ethernet packets inside that link and slow down packets that are ATM transactions because Bell is having problems with the Toronto-Montreal total capacity and needs to reduce total usage ?
If you don't want your packets inspected by Bell or anyone just encrypt them. Maybe that's the next TS service... SSL/IPSEC VPN connections for their members that want to have unthrottled connections.

Listening Rocky?
Jada
join:2005-06-27
Saint-Hubert, QC

Jada to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep
Why should the other smaller ISP's suffer from the bandwidth hogs out there. Seriously when you see comments like:

With TekSavvy unlimited is unlimited. They posted the numbers a few days ago, apparently the heaviest unlimited users were at 1500GB/month. TekSavvy of course likes it when people use less, but they don't cut you off (unless you manage to get a connection higher than 6Mb/s, which TekSavvy doesn't offer).

TekSavvy never throttles, you can run BitTorrent full out at any time of day. I often get 520KB/s on BitTorrent during peak hours.

I have some questions hopefully someone can answer.

I'm sick of bell's throttling and looking for a new ISP. could you tell me if your unlimited account is truly unlimited? i am a big downloader/uploader; about 500GB/month. that being said, would my service be throttled the way that bell is throttling me? i do download from torrents quite a lot and also from nntp as well. i realize that bell doesn't throttle nntp but only the torrents, but the speeds i'm getting from torrents is forcing me to switch. thank you for any feedback!

also, i forgot to ask, how unlimited is teksavvy's "unlimited" access? would i be capped/throttled for using more than 500+gb bandwidth per month? or perhaps charged more? thank you!

oh, and i have bell's speedstream 6520. i can just use teksavvy's login information instead of bell's with this modem and it should work, correct? i did already buy it from bell.

All the ISP's have the same right. Comcast does it because they want to keep their customers happy.Not all there customers download torrents, why should they suffer from the abuses of others. Seriously 500 to 1500GB a month Teksavvy user c'mon!!!!

Comcast "uses reasonable network management practices that are consistent with industry standards." The company points out that it is not alone in the practice, saying that "all major" ISPs engage in some form of traffic shaping. Comcast does it to keep its subscribers from suffering the heartaches of "spam, viruses, security attacks, network congestion, and other risks and degradations of service" and to "deliver the best possible Internet experience to all of its customers."
iconfat
join:2005-04-06
Toronto

1 edit

iconfat to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep
Bell shouldn't have to throttle ISPs that use their lines.

If I remember correctly, Bell used to advertise DSL as being superior to cable in that DSL does NOT share bandwidth in neighbourhood zones. It is a direct connection to you and the ISP so it doesnt matter how much or little your neighbour uses.

By implementing this bandwidth control, they are going back on their words.

Also, If they want to throlle bell users that connect to the bell network, go right ahead. But by tampering with Teksavvys customers, they are now affecting your services agreements with your customers.

ajhaji
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Etobicoke, ON

ajhaji to Bee Beep

Premium Member

to Bee Beep
Well, just as expected, 5 PM has rolled around and my torrents are down to about 60 KB/s. It was almost instantaneous: they were rolling along at 450 KB/s all day, and then shortly after 5 PM they fell sharply.

I'm glad to hear Rocky is on the case. Good luck with Bell.
iconfat
join:2005-04-06
Toronto

iconfat

Member

We should start a thread with people posting their locations so we can get an idea where bell is throttling.
Omr
join:2004-01-10
M1S-1B3

Omr to Jada

Member

to Jada
said by Jada:

Why should the other smaller ISP's suffer from the bandwidth hogs out there. Seriously when you see comments like:

With TekSavvy unlimited is unlimited. They posted the numbers a few days ago, apparently the heaviest unlimited users were at 1500GB/month. TekSavvy of course likes it when people use less, but they don't cut you off (unless you manage to get a connection higher than 6Mb/s, which TekSavvy doesn't offer).

TekSavvy never throttles, you can run BitTorrent full out at any time of day. I often get 520KB/s on BitTorrent during peak hours.

I have some questions hopefully someone can answer.

I'm sick of bell's throttling and looking for a new ISP. could you tell me if your unlimited account is truly unlimited? i am a big downloader/uploader; about 500GB/month. that being said, would my service be throttled the way that bell is throttling me? i do download from torrents quite a lot and also from nntp as well. i realize that bell doesn't throttle nntp but only the torrents, but the speeds i'm getting from torrents is forcing me to switch. thank you for any feedback!

also, i forgot to ask, how unlimited is teksavvy's "unlimited" access? would i be capped/throttled for using more than 500+gb bandwidth per month? or perhaps charged more? thank you!

oh, and i have bell's speedstream 6520. i can just use teksavvy's login information instead of bell's with this modem and it should work, correct? i did already buy it from bell.

All the ISP's have the same right. Comcast does it because they want to keep their customers happy.Not all there customers download torrents, why should they suffer from the abuses of others. Seriously 500 to 1500GB a month Teksavvy user c'mon!!!!

Comcast "uses reasonable network management practices that are consistent with industry standards." The company points out that it is not alone in the practice, saying that "all major" ISPs engage in some form of traffic shaping. Comcast does it to keep its subscribers from suffering the heartaches of "spam, viruses, security attacks, network congestion, and other risks and degradations of service" and to "deliver the best possible Internet experience to all of its customers."
With that way of thinking though you are disparaging the entire TSI userbase and writing us of as simpletons. What you can't see is the few right now are the trend setters of the web ... we are the reason HD-DVD exists, we are the reason VOIP exists, we are the reason why services like Youtube have become big ... the market is evolving to more data and so in direct correlation the demand for increased capacity will increase exponentialy as more and more are coming onboard. IPTV services are popping up, VOIP is prevalent, Streaming is prevalent, and shared internet connections are prevalent. The big companies use PR to make it seem as they are protecting the interests of the user, but flawed is the way of thinking. Crippling another user to make another happy is just passing the torch, nothing really has been done to solve the root problem ... there will be a day when the both users want the higher capacity and the ISP stops them both ... that is what is happening. Also the thing that makes no sense is when a person signs up to an ISP why not be told of these business practices, why not be told the list of Applications that are allowed on that network and those that are crippled and not allowed. To this day the facade of these companies has been about incredible speeds, open use of any applications, etc... Why haven't ISP's been more forthcoming, you are the customer you deserve to know how shitty you'll be treated after signing that dotted line. The ISP's want to have there cake and eat it too.
Rastan
join:2007-04-25
Canada

Rastan to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep
I guess this is how Bell will discourage people from switching to another DSL provider. What's the point of switching now that every other DSL provider is also providing a crippled connection?

ajhaji
Premium Member
join:2002-03-02
Etobicoke, ON

ajhaji

Premium Member

said by Rastan:

I guess this is how Bell will discourage people from switching to another DSL provider. What's the point of switching now that every other DSL provider is also providing a crippled connection?
TekSavvy is still cheaper and still has higher monthly usage limits.

JayMan26
Whoot
Premium Member
join:2002-06-05
Earth

JayMan26 to Bee Beep

Premium Member

to Bee Beep
Still not seeing any throttling here.

DKS
Damn Kidney Stones

join:2001-03-22
Owen Sound, ON

DKS to Omr

to Omr
said by Omr:

With that way of thinking though you are disparaging the entire TSI userbase and writing us of as simpletons. What you can't see is the few right now are the trend setters of the web ... we are the reason HD-DVD exists, we are the reason VOIP exists, we are the reason why services like Youtube have become big ... the market is evolving to more data and so in direct correlation the demand for increased capacity will increase exponentialy as more and more are coming onboard. IPTV services are popping up, VOIP is prevalent, Streaming is prevalent, and shared internet connections are prevalent. The big companies use PR to make it seem as they are protecting the interests of the user, but flawed is the way of thinking. Crippling another user to make another happy is just passing the torch, nothing really has been done to solve the root problem ... there will be a day when the both users want the higher capacity and the ISP stops them both ... that is what is happening. Also the thing that makes no sense is when a person signs up to an ISP why not be told of these business practices, why not be told the list of Applications that are allowed on that network and those that are crippled and not allowed. To this day the facade of these companies has been about incredible speeds, open use of any applications, etc... Why haven't ISP's been more forthcoming, you are the customer you deserve to know how shitty you'll be treated after signing that dotted line. The ISP's want to have there cake and eat it too.
My! my! You do have a high opinion of people! You forget that 33% of the population still is on dialup. You forget that broadband has only grown .3% in the last two years. »www.internetworldstats.c ··· m/ca.htm You also forget that there are a lot of people who cannot afford more technology and those who do not wish it. VOIP is still flawed and not available to many. YouTube is not as universal as you suggest. Some people are still on rotary dial phones.The market will not respond to demand. The market is far, far more complex than that. Major factors you do not account for is capital availability. Data networks do not grow and trees and the buildout takes years. In the meantime, we are limited. all of us. especially when the internet is not an essential service but a discretionary service.
DKS

DKS to Rastan

to Rastan
said by Rastan:

I guess this is how Bell will discourage people from switching to another DSL provider. What's the point of switching now that every other DSL provider is also providing a crippled connection?
Good point. the banks will lend money to stable customer bases. The goal is customer stability so as to reflect positively on the balance sheet.

Stormie
@teksavvy.com

Stormie to Bee Beep

Anon

to Bee Beep
I seem to be affected by it now aswell, Was getting ~400kb/16kb on my one going then i would say
~4pm it all of a sudden dropped to 60/.3. Thought my router was just acting up to i reset and still the same
60/.3 then it speed up a little to 100/2 for 5 mins. But now for the past ~40mins i've been stuck at 30/0.

Doesn't matter how many peers i connect to my upload stays at 0 and my dl at ~28-30kb. I tried on a few linux
distros and other files as well but it will not go any higher then 30/0 for all of them.

Only my P2P traffic is being throttled atm as anything i download from the net via my broswer goes
at full speed.
Homer889
join:2003-03-15
Scarborough, ON

Homer889 to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep
I'm at Sheppard and Bayview and getting the throttling.... I have 13 torrents on and cumulatively they're going at 16.5kb/sec (all of them has an average of 10 seeds and 200 peers).

Oh well... I'm not in a hurry for these files. Bell really needs to stop screwing their customers around though...

HiVolt
Premium Member
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON

HiVolt

Premium Member

I'm seeing no issues here, Torrents going full speed 630k on 6016/800 sync.

mickc
@teksavvy.com

mickc to Bee Beep

Anon

to Bee Beep
throttled at 30k here
wtf
Radar73
join:2008-01-20
Ajax, ON

Radar73 to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep
I'm throttled now too .... 30k/s. Switched to IRC and getting 430k/s now. This better be a temporary thing.
TheS0urce
join:2008-02-26

TheS0urce to mickc

Member

to mickc
Click for full size
No throttling YET LOL

JayTS
@teksavvy.com

JayTS to Bee Beep

Anon

to Bee Beep
Just took a look at my computer & sure enough there were a series of drops - about 5PM throttling began at about 100k, it dropped a but later to ~56 along with severe tightening of upstream, then shortly after 7 PM it was quashed down to 26/18.

From all the comments in this forum so far, jfmezei_ seems to be the most on-target. I'm not terribly comfortable with TS's ready agreement that Bell has such a serious problem - needing such immediate action. If this is the case then surely we should have been warned that a crisis was coming. However I do take note that they were taken by surprise at how & when Bell's intervention came into play.

Back to the crisis issue, if this is "load balancing" is to offset a genuine & immediate issue, it seems odd that the solution is to impose such a scheduled & dramatic clampdown. Surely this type of problem would be resolved by dynamic & far more subtle shaping?

I'll hold off an any real whining for a while. Right now we're in Rocky's hands, yet somehow I feel like I have Bell's thumbprints all over me.

Stormie
@teksavvy.com

Stormie to Bee Beep

Anon

to Bee Beep
Just hope this can get resolved and isn't a permanent thing as it abit annoying, What was only gonna take
an hour to finish is now gonna take me 11hrs :@.
Omr
join:2004-01-10
M1S-1B3

1 edit

Omr to DKS

Member

to DKS
said by DKS:

said by Omr:

With that way of thinking though you are disparaging the entire TSI userbase and writing us of as simpletons. What you can't see is the few right now are the trend setters of the web ... we are the reason HD-DVD exists, we are the reason VOIP exists, we are the reason why services like Youtube have become big ... the market is evolving to more data and so in direct correlation the demand for increased capacity will increase exponentialy as more and more are coming onboard. IPTV services are popping up, VOIP is prevalent, Streaming is prevalent, and shared internet connections are prevalent. The big companies use PR to make it seem as they are protecting the interests of the user, but flawed is the way of thinking. Crippling another user to make another happy is just passing the torch, nothing really has been done to solve the root problem ... there will be a day when the both users want the higher capacity and the ISP stops them both ... that is what is happening. Also the thing that makes no sense is when a person signs up to an ISP why not be told of these business practices, why not be told the list of Applications that are allowed on that network and those that are crippled and not allowed. To this day the facade of these companies has been about incredible speeds, open use of any applications, etc... Why haven't ISP's been more forthcoming, you are the customer you deserve to know how shitty you'll be treated after signing that dotted line. The ISP's want to have there cake and eat it too.
My! my! You do have a high opinion of people! You forget that 33% of the population still is on dialup. You forget that broadband has only grown .3% in the last two years. »www.internetworldstats.c ··· m/ca.htm You also forget that there are a lot of people who cannot afford more technology and those who do not wish it. VOIP is still flawed and not available to many. YouTube is not as universal as you suggest. Some people are still on rotary dial phones.The market will not respond to demand. The market is far, far more complex than that. Major factors you do not account for is capital availability. Data networks do not grow and trees and the buildout takes years. In the meantime, we are limited. all of us. especially when the internet is not an essential service but a discretionary service.
My, my, my ... you seem not to read your own facts. 67% penetration is a very high number, and that 33% that you attribute Dial-Up can have there own reasoning for not coming over to Broadband maybe some don't even have access to it or maybe its not a feasible alternative to there needs ... if I remember Bell still does sell Dial-Up so there is still money coming from them matter of fact alot of Money is being made off them.

»www.bell.ca/shopping/Prs ··· lUp.page

Also a couple of points off that site you just showed:
quote:
By the beginning of 2004, total revenues in the telecom market reached an estimated $32.6 billion (down 1.2% on 2002). Industry revenues had grown from $24.9 billion in 1998. Capex continues to decrease from the big spending years of 2000 and 2001 – down to $5.3 billion in 2003. Since 1997 Canadian telecoms operators have spent over $60.7 billion on capital expenditures.
This shows the incumbents aren't expanding and investing as much as they did before.
quote:
Canada has one of the highest rates of Internet usage in the world. Furthermore, Canadians are heavy users, with around 90% of users using e-mail at least weekly. The Canadian Internet access market continues to grow strongly with over 64% of Canadians having Internet access by 2004.
That alone just shows that Canadians are very connected, and do use the Internet intensively not just for emails anymore.

Also next time please use a reference that is current and up to date:
quote:
Local competition now exists throughout most of Canada – although the incumbent operators still hold the lions share of the market. A number of major acquisitions took place: MTS acquired Allstream and Telus is in the process of acquiring Microcell – the competitive environment is shifting. Telecom infrastructure continues to undergo modernisation projects driven by increased competition, liberalisation of telecom policy and government initiatives aimed at extending broadband reach.
???

It is a paid for service, I pay and get what I paid for. If you were sold something would you be okay with it if the terms changed midway through the transaction and at the end of the month they want you to pay for what was initially agreed upon? I repeat again it is a flawed and illogical way of thinking. All the flash and pizzaz to sell you something but not the ability to deliver on what was sold. The Bells and Rogers are doing something wrong when they sell without full disclosure ... it's like a Pharmaceutical company selling Cancer medication but all the while fully knowing it's just a Placebo ... how quick before the public outcry. Well same logic, although obviously one would be reacted on in a more serious way. Fully disclose what you are doing ... say it publicly that you throttle traffic between 5PM and 2AM, just don't play this public deception that is what peeves me off the most. BE HONEST for gods sake, as if telling us lies protects us ... no it just makes us question how stupid do you believe we are that you are taking us for a ride. Now this is in no way directed at TSI, they are honest, open and full of integrity something to be proud of. Unfortunate that the proverbial 800lb gorilla in the room just took a dumb on its ability to run its business.
jfmezei
Premium Member
join:2007-01-03
Pointe-Claire, QC

jfmezei to Bee Beep

Premium Member

to Bee Beep
Question to ask Bell:

Does Bell also throttle HSA (non PPPOE) connections ?

Gokuu
join:2001-08-27

Gokuu to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep

Fine here

I don't see any throttling of torrents here in Scarborough. I tested with a few torrents that had at least 150 seeders each.

melak
Premium Member
join:2006-06-17
Fergus, ON

melak to Bee Beep

Premium Member

to Bee Beep

Re: Teksavvy's throttling now? Just a vent, nothing is needed.

from a small little hick town called Fergus, with no throttling here.
Rastan
join:2007-04-25
Canada

Rastan to JayTS

Member

to JayTS
I don't understand why so many of you are using the term load balancing to describe what's happening. Even Rocky admitted that this is not the term Bell used.
quote:
I personally used the words load balance as they said a sort of global throttle, when the loads were heavy, but the problem with using throttle in this case is they're spreading the pain in areas that are overloaded.

Bell is throttling P2P traffic and it's not just BitTorrent. It's traffic from eMule, gnutella, DC, Ares...etc.

Scoop18
join:2006-08-05
Ottawa, ON

Scoop18

Member

No throttling in Ottawa.

babaganush
@teksavvy.com

babaganush to Bee Beep

Anon

to Bee Beep
Looks like a lot of us are going to have to learn how to use IRC.

Everyone can call it whatever they want, but we all know that speeds are being throttled. This was precisely the reason I left them but I guess they've caught up.
gord27
join:2005-05-01
Mississauga, ON

2 edits

gord27 to Bee Beep

Member

to Bee Beep
well i'm being throttled right now.




if that's not throttling i don't know what is...

(mod note: attached image to fix blown margins -state)