  jfmezei Premium join:2007-01-03 Beaconsfield, QC | reply to spliffy Re: Update on throttling issue...
Where the competition bureau can get involved is that Bell's actions will prevent independant ISPs from providing options in their services that distinguish themselves from Sympatico, this removing competitive advantages. |
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 loginname
join:2007-09-26 Toronto, ON | reply to R0CKY Just wanted to let Rocky know that another TSI subscriber has contacted the competition bureau, the Minister of Industry, MP, and MPP.
Let's keep the ball rolling. |
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  GKC
join:2008-03-07 Toronto, ON
1 edit | reply to Zero DSL Kudos to Ryan Stone & Alicia Simon. I, too, sent an email off to Kevin Crull this morning notifying him of my intention to cancel my home phone with Bell the very moment TekSavvy launches their home phone. I'll not even have my number ported over from Bell to TekSavvy. I'll start afresh with TekSavvy and be more than willing to pay an activation fee, if TekSavvy feels the need to charge; as well, I forwarded a letter off to the Competition Bureau. I encourage others to do the same.
United we stand, divided we fall  |
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  Leathal Premium join:2002-02-09 Toronto, ON | reply to R0CKY I have a question Rocky,
Just how good is the technology for throttling today? Does it produce any false positives, if so what percentage?
Leathal |
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  sbrook Premium,Mod join:2001-12-14 H0H 0H0
·Rogers Hi-Speed
Host: Rogers Bell Canada
| Bell's throttling boxes were producing lots of false positives (i.e. identifying things as throttlable)
Somewhere I read that Bell was using the same boxes as Rogers.
Don't think so.
From the rumour mills, Rogers uses Cisco's pCube service engines, and Bell bought into Ellacoya (same as used by Shaw out west). |
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 Stiffarm
join:2008-01-19 Hamilton, ON | I've heard that Bell was using Sandvine boxes, but by the reports on what is getting throttled how I doubt the rumors to be true. |
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  Arbalister
join:2007-11-24 St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to theninjasqua said by theninjasqua :I still don't understand how/why Bell went ahead and did this and did not even inform the wholesalers of this. If they are in a business agreement for the service, should the wholesalers not had some kind of warning that this is going to occur? That was incredibly ballsy of Bell to go and turn the throttling on, let the users figure out that there it throttling going on, then let their wholesales ISP's know. What a mess. This is typical Bell strongarm tactics. They've always taken the attitude "who'll stop us, we're Bell." |
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 Willy_ph
join:2002-02-01 Port Hope, ON
1 edit | reply to R0CKY I'm currently preparing separate letters to the CRTC and the Competition Bureau.
They will be copied to the following:
Rick Norlock (My MP) Josee Verner, Minister of Canadian Heritage (CRTC falls under her jurisdiction) Jim Prentice, Minister of Industry (Competition Bureau falls under his jurisdiction) Rocky Gaudrault, TSI Michael J. Sabia, BCE Scott Brison, Industry Critic for the Official Opposition |
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  Arbalister
join:2007-11-24 St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to spliffy said by spliffy :Confused by all this talk about writing to the CRTC. The CRTC has quite publicly stated that they are unwilling/unable to dictate ISP business practices, as explained here: » www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/INFO_SHT/t1003.htmThe real Canadian Competition Bureau (different from CRTC) and the Commissioner for Complaints for Telecommunications Services (» www.ccts-cprst.ca/ots/cf/Existin···ocale=en) seem better avenues? Guess the CRTC won't hurt. Just pound all levels of government. The CRTC however *does* regulate tariffed telecommunication services. Which includes the service we are talking about. We're not talking about an ISP that needs spanking, we're talking about a provider of essential telecommunications services, on a wholesale level, that is abusing their position to screw over their customers.
What you are seeing here, is akin to the gas company saying "well, geez, we've noticed that people use a lot more gas in the evening hours of the winter months, so from now on we're going to reduce the available supply at those times."
Do you think they'd get away with it? We'd be all over the energy board. They regulate gas services. The CRTC regulates telecommunications. It's time they got off the pot they've been on for the last 10 years. |
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  sbrook Premium,Mod join:2001-12-14 H0H 0H0 | reply to Stiffarm I do know that it's not Sandvine boxes. |
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 Grounded
join:2007-12-13 canada
| reply to R0CKY Willy,
Good list. Great idea to include the opposition as well. I think it's probably worthwile including someone from the NDP as this sure feels like the corporate masters beating on the little guy & that's kinda their bailiwick. Since this hits Quebec as well might someone from yet another party read into the situation interference with cultural exchange? 
What the heck, seems the more people feel they have a dog in this race the better.
I also copied my local MPP & city counsellor as well. They can't really much but add to the noise if this piques their interest. |
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  UT_CK Premium join:2008-01-28
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| As I've stated from the beginning the CRTC are a bunch of idle toads. Unless they do something about this pronto, they need to be disbanded and replaced with new blood who understand what their mandate is. Just what does it take for these spineless jellyfish to get off the pot ?
CK |
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 Willy_ph
join:2002-02-01 Port Hope, ON
1 edit | reply to R0CKY Here are copies of the letters I'm sending tomorrow. One to the CRTC and one to the Competition Bureau. Both are copied to many individuals (Rocky's going to be starting up a Timmy's in the office to handle the influx of paper I think )
said by me : Konrad von Finckenstein, Chairman C.R.T.C. Ottawa, ON K1A 0N2
March 26, 2008
Dear Mr. von Finckenstein,
Re: Bell Canada Throttling of 3rd Party DSL Providers
It has recently been revealed that Bell Canada has implemented technologies that are unilaterally throttling the internet connections provided by 3rd party internet providers who utilize Bell Canadas Nexxia network to backhaul connections between the customer and the ISP.
Moreover, Bell Canada chose to implement these technologies without advising those who would be directly affected by the changes; specifically 3rd party internet providers and their customers. The actions taken by Bell Canada effectively dictate what type of service can be provided by 3rd party providers who must utilize Bells network because there is no other cost effective alternative (the capital required to duplicate the Bell network would be absolutely staggering).
To make it clear, Bell Canada has imposed unilateral limitations on upon 3rd party providers by selectively throttling the bandwidth provided to their customers as it transits through Bells Nexxia network. It has been shown that the bandwidth is being selectively shaped to affect certain transfer protocols, while having no impact upon other protocols.
I would imagine that once challenged on the subject, Bell will contend that their system does not affect legitimate internet traffic (likely construed as HTTP (web) and SMTP (email) traffic). However there are other protocols that are utilized for legitimate purposes beyond web and email traffic. Even some highly contentious P2P protocols, such as bittorrent, are utilized for legitimate purposes, as evidenced by the recent decision by the CBC to release Canadas Next Great Prime Minister for free using bittorrent. In addition to its obvious effect upon P2P protocols, the throttling system implemented by Bell is affected other protocols which are critical to my ability to work and communicate with others and enjoy the product which I have purchased from Teksavvy Solutions Inc. I work from home and depend on a Virtual Private Network (VPN) connection to access information at work and make use of VOIP services to communicate with others. These services are virtually useless with the technology that has been implemented. Since the throttling was introduced I have encountered problems trying to work from home and use my VOIP telephone, not to mention the fact that I cannot play online games anymore due to the degradation of my internet service by the throttling introduced by Bell.
Bell clearly enjoys a dominant position in providing telecommunications (phone and internet) services to Canadians in Ontario, Quebec and beyond. As a result, it is clearly a controversial move on their part to impose a system which limits that ability of other companies to provide a service to their customers as they see fit, and compete based on that product alone. It is a direct result of Bells dominance that the imposition of these new technologies is so egregious and anti-competitive. This move appears to strike at the very foundation that was built by the CRTC to ensure fair competition and access to legitimate telecommunications alternatives for Canadian consumers.
I am sure that your Commission is concerned about the apparent move on Bells part to undermine the equitable playing field that you have worked to construct for both Canadian businesses and consumers. It is my hope that you will use whatever means possible to ensure that Bell rescinds the implementation of these throttling technologies on their network, as 3rd party providers have no other alternative through which to provide internet services via DSL technology to the Canadian consumer.
If I may iterate, as the regulating body of tariffed telecommunications services in Canada (of which Bell is a provider in this particular circumstance), your body has an obligation to ensure that the rules that have been established by your Commission are not breached. If it is shown that a breach has occurred through the implementation of throttling technologies on the wholesale connectivity provided to 3rd party providers, your Commission must act to rectify the situation and punish the offending party.
The future of network neutrality and real alternatives for Canadian consumers rests in your Commissions hands. I will be monitoring the subsequent actions your Commission takes and hope you will act in the best interests of Canadians.
Yours truly,
Willy_ph
Cc: Hon. Jim Prentice, Minister of Industry Hon. Josée Verner, Minister of Canadian Heritage Rick Norlock, MP Northumberland Quinte West Scott Brison, MP Kings Hants Peggy Nash, MP Parkdale High Park Bill Siskay, MP Burnaby Douglas Rocky Gaudrault, President & CEO Teksavvy Solutions Inc. Michael J. Sabia, President BCE Inc.
said by me : Sheridan Scott, Commissioner Competition Bureau 50 Victoria St. Gatineau, QC K1A 0C9
March 26, 2008
Dear Ms. Sheridan, Re: Abuse of Dominant Position Bell Canada
It has recently come to light that Bell Canada has implemented technologies that effectively limit the ability of 3rd party wholesalers to provide a service to their clients free of interference and did so without any warning of their impending action. The technologies in question throttle the bandwidth provided by a 3rd party ISP to their clients, who utilize the last mile of copper infrastructure owned by Bell Canada. These 3rd parties have established contracts with Bell Canada whos only obligation is to provide an interface to backhaul information from my household to a central point (in this case the network facilities at 151 Front St., Toronto, ON) at which point it is handed off to my ISP.
What has recently been revealed is the fact that Bell Canada is utilizing traffic shaping technologies to interfere with my internet connection as it is backhauled to my ISP (Teksavvy Solutions Inc., based in Chatham, ON). These throttling technologies affect only certain internet protocols, which Bell Canada must feel are illegitimate uses. Let me make it clear, I am not an internet service subscriber with Bell Canada, nor do I wish to be. The only responsibility Bell has in relation to my internet service is to ensure that the information is transferred from my modem, across the last mile to my ISP.
It is obvious that Bell Canada enjoys a dominant position in the telecommunications market place. This fact cannot be disputed. In the past there were legitimate reasons for Bell Canada to exist as a monopoly. However, those times have passed us by. What we must now ensure is that their dominant position is not utilized to exercise undue interference in the marketplace. Unfortunately, it appears that this may be the case.
Bell has been directed by the CRTC to allow 3rd party internet providers access to their last mile of copper infrastructure so alternative telecommunication products are available to the market. 3rd party providers establish contracts, governed by CRTC regulations, with Bell to access this last mile and consumers subsequently engage in relationships with these 3rd parties to purchase a product. It is not expected, by the 3rd party providers or their customers that Bell will influence the service that they provide or purchase. The only limitation that should be imposed on the service are those that the providers impose themselves. What Bell Canada has effectively done, by implementing these technologies, is mandated to 3rd party providers what type of service they can provide to their clients. I purchased a product from my provider under the impression that only they would impose limitations on the service, and with due warning if changes were to occur.
Bell Canada, however, has utilized their dominant position to unilaterally alter the service to which I subscribe and without notification, to either me or my provider. This is an absolutely unacceptable action on their part and one that must not be allowed to stand. This decision on Bells part effectively stifles competition, as it affects any DSL provider who contracts with Bell to provide wholesale access to the last mile (effectively all DSL providers due to the monopoly over the copper infrastructure).
I ask that your Commission investigate the actions that Bell has pursued and order them to reverse the implementation of the throttling technologies, as they look inherently anti-competitive. I selected my specific ISP because they do not throttle, or impose bandwidth limitations on my internet service. My ISP has established a business structure that allows them to offer a service that is neither throttled, nor subject to bandwidth caps. Bell has concretely, substantially, and without authorization, altered the service that I purchased.
I call upon the Competition Bureau to investigate these recent actions and order Bell Canada to reverse their implementation.
Yours truly,
Willy_ph
Cc: Hon. Jim Prentice, Minister of Industry Hon. Josée Verner, Minister of Canadian Heritage Rick Norlock, MP Northumberland Quinte West Scott Brison, MP Kings Hants Peggy Nash, MP Parkdale High Park Bill Siskay, MP Burnaby Douglas Rocky Gaudrault, President & CEO Teksavvy Solutions Inc. Michael J. Sabia, President BCE Inc.
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  GKC
join:2008-03-07 Toronto, ON | Excellent! |
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 a1_Andy Premium join:2005-12-29 Peterborough, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Willy_ph Only thing wrong I can find so far is that you said "while having no impact upon other protocols" sadly it has a affect on "everything" that passes through the network. I say everything because the sharper that they have implemented inspects ALL TCP traffic and causes a delay for the inspection. Gaming Voip extra (any thing that requires a low ping). Hold on, bell needs to inspect that last packet it might be P2P, as you go for your next frag........now you get Bell Lagg and die. |
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 Willy_ph
join:2002-02-01 Port Hope, ON | Ah, you are correct. I will revise accordingly in my letter. |
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  patyeon
@carleton.ca
| reply to R0CKY For the record, this is not just about BT, or P2P. As I've seen, throttling lumps ANY encrypted traffic together. In a world where more and more of us have a wish to secure our communications, that's a problem. Even worse, I use my home computer from work/school a fair bit, usually through SSH (a text-based remote login protocol), and I transfer drafts, reports, and other (legal, mostly created by yours truly) files using SCP. Both those protocols are now throttled, such that typing into my home computer, over the internet, shows a measurable lag, on the order of 3-7 seconds, if someone else in the house is torrenting. This would be even more horribly painful if someone were using an encrypted (for security) remote desktop protocol, as I would bet is getting even more and more popular.
I believe the true problem here is that we deal with companies that label themselves Internet Service Providers, when in reality, many of us want an Internet Access Provider. Just give me a pipe, let me sort the rest out.
Thank you for working for us, Rocky and all of TSI. |
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 GTAHabsFan
join:2008-03-26 | reply to R0CKY Just to recap, I am a TekSavvy customer who used to be with Bell. Bell claimed that they throttled only during peak hours. Is that the same tactic that is currently being implemented? Or is it throttling 24/7? |
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 aver
join:2007-12-03 Kitchener, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to patyeon I think the real issue is that the consumer is punished because Bell has a business practice over overselling its network. Its all because these profit driven companies get so caught up in making the shareholders happy they forget about the customers. Then when consumers strike back (switching to Teksavvy) the companies strike back at the consumers again. Its just disgusting.
I wish that the "customer is always right" motto still held true today, the world would be a better place. |
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  Arbalister
join:2007-11-24 St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to UT_CK said by UT_CK :As I've stated from the beginning the CRTC are a bunch of idle toads. Unless they do something about this pronto, they need to be disbanded and replaced with new blood who understand what their mandate is. Just what does it take for these spineless jellyfish to get off the pot ? CK Piles of cash in the right slush fund |
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