Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... in TekSavvy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20232016 en Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:57:26 EDT Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:57:26 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245739 derekm :
said by LiQuiD See Profile :

No matter what port number you use, eventually you'll get scans. What I've done to avoid them is set the sysctl on fbsd to drop syn+fin (not perfect, but marked improvement) and b: a buddy of mine and myself once created a perl script that would parse my /var/log/auth.log (or wherever connection attempts are logged) every hour and find numerous attempts from an IP and add them to a table for pf to chew on. I then had a cronjob that would reload the table into pf every hour. Needless to say, it was a table of unwelcomed hosts, and reloading it caused it to be added to the addresses blocked by my gateway.
LiQuiD, thanks for further confirming SCP/SSH findings.

A related note, I'm using pf and this rule simplifies the process for me:

table <badneighbors> persist
pass in on $ext_if inet proto tcp from any to any \
port { ssh } flags S/SA keep state \
(max-src-conn 3, max-src-conn-rate 5/3, \
overload <badneighbors> flush global)

I'm also running security/expiretable to timeout old entries, although I think in 7.0-RELEASE and above, you can do something like pfctl -t bruteforce -T expire 86400 (in OpenBSD 4.1 and above)

You may wish to throw POP3, or other services behind that little puppy too.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245739 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:08:54 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245666 DSL_Ricer :
said by LiQuiD See Profile :

a buddy of mine and myself once created a perl script that would parse my /var/log/auth.log (or wherever connection attempts are logged) every hour and find numerous attempts from an IP and add them to a table for pf to chew on. I then had a cronjob that would reload the table into pf every hour. Needless to say, it was a table of unwelcomed hosts, and reloading it caused it to be added to the addresses blocked by my gateway.
I do believe monit also has similar features (if so configured).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245666 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:51:34 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245554 LiQuiD :
said by patyeon See Profile :

said by Guspaz See Profile :

I just confirmed that the two users who reported throttled SCP connections did not specify what port they are using SSH on (and one of the two, it was questionable if he really was throttled).

Evidence points to SSH not being throttled when used on standard ports at this point in time.
I use ports above 2000 for my SSH sessions, simply because it cuts down on the absolutely huge number of scanners that come across. It's really more about not having to see them in my logs than it is about security. So that was limited to 30KB/s both ways.

If I get some time, I may poke around to see, over a range of ports, what's throttled, and what's not.
No matter what port number you use, eventually you'll get scans. What I've done to avoid them is set the sysctl on fbsd to drop syn+fin (not perfect, but marked improvement) and b: a buddy of mine and myself once created a perl script that would parse my /var/log/auth.log (or wherever connection attempts are logged) every hour and find numerous attempts from an IP and add them to a table for pf to chew on. I then had a cronjob that would reload the table into pf every hour. Needless to say, it was a table of unwelcomed hosts, and reloading it caused it to be added to the addresses blocked by my gateway.

Worked like a charm. I'm gonna see if I can find it. the cf card died on my firewall machine several months ago and i never bothered reloading it. I don't get that many hits though. Besides, most of them seem to be going after ftp.

Hopefully the idea will motivate you to write something similar in the language of your choice.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245554 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:21:00 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245271 shepd : If it matters, I'm running SSH on the standard SSH port, port 22. Did an FTP transfer immediately after ANOTHER 60 kbps SSH transfer, the FTP transfer ran at over 300 kbps. To the standard FTP ports (20/21/whatever the computer asks for for data).

Either I've seriously misconfigured my SSH server (how I could misconfigure it to the point that it throttles my traffic so effectively, I don't know) or SSH is throttled for me.

HTH!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245271 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 23:22:44 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245018 Guspaz : It may be possible to request Bell set a few ports aside as alternatives. 2222 for SSH, for example.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245018 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:35:38 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20244533 patyeon :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

I just confirmed that the two users who reported throttled SCP connections did not specify what port they are using SSH on (and one of the two, it was questionable if he really was throttled).

Evidence points to SSH not being throttled when used on standard ports at this point in time.
I use ports above 2000 for my SSH sessions, simply because it cuts down on the absolutely huge number of scanners that come across. It's really more about not having to see them in my logs than it is about security. So that was limited to 30KB/s both ways.

If I get some time, I may poke around to see, over a range of ports, what's throttled, and what's not.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20244533 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 21:11:43 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20244045 Flannel :
said by Doci See Profile :

[...]That dude is Grade A clown.
Yeah, what's he saying by "start building out more of their own network"? He wants them to run wires? The government granted Bell monopoly had one hundred (!) unchallenged years to install its network everywhere. He really is a Doofus.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20244045 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:52:06 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243947 Flannel :
said by LiQuiD See Profile :

[...]serves me right for taking people's stuff on here at face value with no way of verifying their results, or their integrity.

Worth noting: I use all standard ports. If you don't... why exactly aren't you anyway?[...]
I think no one can generalize one what's what, especially since Bell isn't upfront / there is no full disclosure with what they are doing. Heck, look at the throttling threads, when it starts people are told they are crazy. I think during the early days of throttling there was collateral damage to other encrypted protocols, I experienced it with Sympatico, they possibly have tried to iron out the bugs with the company that makes the software, I don't know, there is no disclosure.

Some use non-standard ports for security reasons, it can be that simple. You could have multiple servers running at one IP, each on their own port, all of which cannot be "standard", etc.. Besides, what if you want to use software X or protocol Y or port Z with encryption? Must we use only the software and protocols on ports approved by Bell? That's anti-competition and anti-innovation. Do you question why people don't use the "standard" MS Windows or MS Office? I don't think so.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243947 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 19:31:56 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243711 Rand2k1 : Looks like Throttling has hit Oakville, only its even worse.

I can't break 25k!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243711 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:53:43 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243538 LiQuiD : Ok, I ran a whole bunch of stuff at my gf's house to verify for myself. As I said on irc in #teksavvy, serves me right for taking people's stuff on here at face value with no way of verifying their results, or their integrity.

Worth noting: I use all standard ports. If you don't... why exactly aren't you anyway? Moving along...

I can tell you with certainty, based on multiple attemts using my laptop, and a first time attempt at using torrents (on linux no less) that my gf's connection, via sympatico, is throttled. Interesting note: I didn't bother opening a port on her router for uploading, and as I've read, this limited my download to 60k/s. The moment the clock hit 6PM though, and since then, it's been stuck at 30k/s. Thanks Flannel See Profile for suggesting I verify this, or I would have stopped checking this stuff out.

Next, I tried to SCP a file from my laptop here to my mail server back home. I was able to send a test.file at 83k/s.

I tried again while downloading a couple of torrents (which were stuck at a combined 30k/s). Result: 79k/s

I also tried to download via FTP, using a freebsd iso as a test, also while downloading using KTorrent: I was able to download at 380k/s, which is full speed on my gf's line.

If anyone else can think of anything I can try, let me know.

My greatest fear has been subsided... for now. Don't worry though, bell's not off the hook!

Edit: If anyone is running OpenVPN and will trust me with a temp account just to test file transfer performance, it would be awesome :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243538 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:23:28 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243472 oldwise1 : I can tell you I'm on Rogers with private trackers and I'm pulling 1.0MB on extreme, the problem lies in the upload channel I'm usally only able to go 10kbs. So how long will it take before I'm banned from private trackers?...Public trackers such as Piratebay...no problem ratio's don't matter. So I think Rogers new strategy is to the throttle the upload channel.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243472 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 18:09:07 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243289 kbray :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

That would lose them any lawsuit. You can bet they're going to make sure everybody is as crippled as everybody else.
Give them time... I have no faith in Bell not doing this over time.

I've heard from my friends who use Rogers and Cogeco, that they seem to have either raised their traffic shaping limits, OR has dropped them, cause apparently they both are noticing HUGE increase. this has all be since the 3rd parties announced they MAY take legal action. Rogers user is in Toronto, and the Cogeco is in Milton.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243289 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:39:53 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243255 Doci :
said by R0CKY See Profile :

said by messanger321 :

now don't shoot the messenger but...

This guys blog more or less states that wholesalers like rocky suckles from Bells tites and because he doesn't have his own equipment (radious servers) he deserves what he gets.

he also stated that all those who posted on Geists blog are hysterical (not the first time he states this).

»mhgoldberg.com/blog/2008/03/is-b···nti.html

In his next blog he also states its well within Bells right to throttle:

»mhgoldberg.com/blog/2008/03/tari···fic.html

This guy, in my opinion, is either on bell payroll or a complete moron, or both. You decided (or tell him).
Radius Servers? Huh.... If he thinks we don't have our own Radius Servers, then he's confused on how this all works.

Also, no, Bell is not within their rights to do this.

PS - LOL... He's not biased ( »www.mhgoldberg.com/MarkHG.pdf)

Rocky
That dude is Grade A clown. Why is he bringing wireline into this?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243255 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:34:53 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243178 Guspaz : That would lose them any lawsuit. You can bet they're going to make sure everybody is as crippled as everybody else.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243178 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:21:20 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243163 kbray : Not saying this will happen, but why do I have a feeling sympatico will be less throttled now that they are cracking down on all the 3rd parties?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243163 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:19:51 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243156 Guspaz : I just confirmed that the two users who reported throttled SCP connections did not specify what port they are using SSH on (and one of the two, it was questionable if he really was throttled).

Evidence points to SSH not being throttled when used on standard ports at this point in time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243156 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:19:06 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243152 Flannel :
said by LiQuiD See Profile :

I just tried the same thing
At what time because throttling is not all-the-time with Sympatico, it's not even necessarily at fixed times, but it is more likely between 4pm and 2am. Considering you just posted, you could have been outside the throttling window, or throttling may also not have been active. (Try using bittorrent at the same time to see if throttling is active.)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243152 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:18:37 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243128 LiQuiD :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

said by derekm See Profile :

said by Guspaz See Profile :

Nobody has tried sending data through an SSH link and seeing if it caps at a stable 30KB/s
dd if=/dev/urandom of=tmp4M.bin count=4 bs=1M
4+0 records in
4+0 records out
4194304 bytes transferred in 0.592058 secs (7084280 bytes/sec)
$ scp tmp4M.bin xxx@yyy:~/
Password:
tmp4M.bin 100% 4096KB 81.9KB/s 00:50

I'm on a 5056/800 profile...
You completely maxed out your upstream sending that file, which clearly means that SSH is not throttled on your connection. If you're throttled, you just blew a huge hole in the "everything that is encrypted" panic that's been flying around. If you're not throttled, then your test isn't very useful ;)
I just tried the same thing at my gf's house. She's using sympatico, and so I believe she should have been throttled a while ago (please inform me if this is not necessarily true). I have no way to check if she is actually throttled here. It's in the Hampstead area of Montreal, and I have no idea where her CO is and what not.

Here are my results. Clearly SSH is not throttled, though others have said otherwise.

sandro@prometheus:~$ scp test.file liquid@mercury.obsecured.net:~/
Password:
test.file 100% 4096KB 81.9KB/s 00:50

edit: Clearly SSH is not *THROTTLED* - I wrote not encrypted, heh.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243128 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:14:40 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243084 Flannel :
said by R0CKY See Profile :

[...]funding the Government provides Bell[...]
Gotta love it... government is aiming for net neutrality (net access for all) while Bell is aiming for Executive bonuses.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243084 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 17:08:22 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243013 R0CKY :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

In my reading, he never mentioned Radius servers. He said (paraphrasing) "In these circumstances, if ISPs like TekSavvy want to stick to their principles, they should start building out their own networks."

Which, in all honestly, wouldn't be such a bad idea. Extremely expensive perhaps, but it's a nice pie-in-the-sky idea.
It would be interesting to see if we would receive the same or equal funding the Government provides Bell to do this.
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243013 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:55:13 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243007 Guspaz : In my reading, he never mentioned Radius servers. He said (paraphrasing) "In these circumstances, if ISPs like TekSavvy want to stick to their principles, they should start building out their own networks."

Which, in all honestly, wouldn't be such a bad idea. Extremely expensive perhaps, but it's a nice pie-in-the-sky idea.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20243007 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:54:04 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242993 R0CKY :
said by messanger321 :

now don't shoot the messenger but...

This guys blog more or less states that wholesalers like rocky suckles from Bells tites and because he doesn't have his own equipment (radious servers) he deserves what he gets.

he also stated that all those who posted on Geists blog are hysterical (not the first time he states this).

»mhgoldberg.com/blog/2008/03/is-b···nti.html

In his next blog he also states its well within Bells right to throttle:

»mhgoldberg.com/blog/2008/03/tari···fic.html

This guy, in my opinion, is either on bell payroll or a complete moron, or both. You decided (or tell him).
Radius Servers? Huh.... If he thinks we don't have our own Radius Servers, then he's confused on how this all works.

Also, no, Bell is not within their rights to do this.

PS - LOL... He's not biased ( »www.mhgoldberg.com/MarkHG.pdf)

Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242993 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:51:23 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242921 Guspaz : You're mischaracterizing most of what he said in those two posts, and I don't find any problem with most of his content. I don't necessarily agree, but I think you're engaging in hyperbole.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242921 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:37:24 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242891 anon : now don't shoot the messenger but...

This guys blog more or less states that wholesalers like rocky suckles from Bells tites and because he doesn't have his own equipment (radious servers) he deserves what he gets.

he also stated that all those who posted on Geists blog are hysterical (not the first time he states this).

»mhgoldberg.com/blog/2008/03/is-b···nti.html

In his next blog he also states its well within Bells right to throttle:

»mhgoldberg.com/blog/2008/03/tari···fic.html

This guy, in my opinion, is either on bell payroll or a complete moron, or both. You decided (or tell him).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242891 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:30:04 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242324 lcdguy : Maybe teksavvy and the other resellers should do a hostile take over of Bell Canada :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20242324 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 15:06:40 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20241245 tranceduden : The crazy thing is , I can't even access my PC remotely via RealVNC , it will connect but then drop the connection after few seconds. No idea if it's related but it started hapening around the same time. Is it because it's a VPN type connection classified as "Encrypted Traffic" which they are also throttling ?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20241245 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 12:16:20 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240972 theninjasqua :
said by chrish See Profile :

Someone posted a screen of 30% rst packet droppin with azerus's new tool
There isn't really anything unusual with that percentage amount.
--

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240972 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:35:56 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240869 chrish : Someone posted a screen of 30% rst packet droppin with azerus's new tool]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240869 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:17:44 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240853 eots :
said by Tom2 :

said by eots See Profile A little thin skinned if you took that as criticism. You were being made aware that you received a response from Sympatico (not Bell as you assumed) that had nothing to do with the 3rd party ISP throttling. They have been spewing that response to every Sympatico customer for several months, it's nothing new.
I submitted my complaints to the CRTC and Competition Bureau as soon as it was confirmed that Bell was indeed interfering with 3rd party ISP customers.

Bell needs to be forced to sell off Sympatico and get out of the ISP business as it's an obvious conflict of interest when they can't keep their hands of other ISP's customers.
[/BQUOTE :

Perhaps I am. This issue has me wound up pretty good. However, compare your post to Guspaz' notice the difference in tone that comes through. Sorry I if I offended you by being offended by you! :)
Once again the only one with a hostile tone in their response is you. :uhh:

You made a mistake assuming a response from Sympatico constituted a response from Bell and you were corrected. Anyone who's been a Sympatico customer (as I have) knows how clueless the outsourced customer service is.

We're all here to support Teksavvy over Bell's actions, so please keep it civil. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240853 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:15:16 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240779 avernar :
said by chrish See Profile :

Actually throwing uot the bottles would be correct, since it seems bell might be sending rst packets?
Has that been confirmed?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240779 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 11:00:54 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240760 anon : If I had to look for a penetration technique against this thing I'd start by looking at ways to hide a VPN connection to tunnel out to a VPS. There are a lot more options to play with if you have control over both ends of the connection.

It makes sense to target the greedwall's encrypted traffic detection because there aren't a lot of ways to identify encrypted material. It's more or less statistically indistinguishable from compressed data. There's no way to tell the difference between e.g. a well compressed JPEG carried over HTTP and an HTTP connection that pretends to be carrying a JPEG but is carrying a VPN payload instead of JPEG data. This trick should get you an unmolested encrypted downstream channel until BellNexxia decides to interfere with web access.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240760 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:58:41 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240563 DSL_Ricer :
said by Tom2 :

Wonder if there's an exploit of this in there somewhere - maybe flooding of ACK packets in a fake TCP conversation?
More like treating your TCP connection as a UDP one and use FEC instead of resends. But at that point, it'd probably just be easier to write a new distribution program that uses those features.
Has anyone tried to see if fragmentation attacks worked against the shaper?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240563 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 10:17:44 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240255 anon :
said by chrish See Profile :

Actually throwing out the bottles would be correct, since it seems bell might be sending rst packets?
I can confirm they are NOT sending RST packets. Sandvine does that (Comcast), Bell uses Ellacoya. In fact they (BCE Capital) invested in Ellacoya in 2005. See here:

»findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m···14792886

I did some network traces (Wireshark) last night while torrenting at the amazing 30KB/s up and down. I didn't see any RST packets. What I did see was delaying of packets - mostly the ACKs in either direction since Bit Torrent is basically unidirectional on a particular connection. No packets were dropped, just delayed. However, the TCP stack "thought" some were dropped since they were delayed almost 1 second and would retry only to get a TCP Dup back when this happened. Wonder if there's an exploit of this in there somewhere - maybe flooding of ACK packets in a fake TCP conversation? I'm going to spend more time comparing throttled vs unthrottled traces when I get some time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240255 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:16:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240064 Deaks2 : This is my thinking exactly. Since Bell is basically claiming that the copper infrastructure, which was largely paid for by tax payers when Bell was a crown corporation, can't handle the load, they are throttling.

The simple solution is for Bell to be broken up like AT&T was, the distribution network being necessary for the public good falling back under gov't control via a new crown corporation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240064 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:32:13 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240043 chrish : Actually throwing uot the bottles would be correct, since it seems bell might be sending rst packets?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20240043 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 08:26:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239920 anon :
said by eots See Profile A little thin skinned if you took that as criticism. You were being made aware that you received a response from Sympatico (not Bell as you assumed) that had nothing to do with the 3rd party ISP throttling. They have been spewing that response to every Sympatico customer for several months, it's nothing new.
I submitted my complaints to the CRTC and Competition Bureau as soon as it was confirmed that Bell was indeed interfering with 3rd party ISP customers.

Bell needs to be forced to sell off Sympatico and get out of the ISP business as it's an obvious conflict of interest when they can't keep their hands of other ISP's customers.
[/BQUOTE :

Perhaps I am. This issue has me wound up pretty good. However, compare your post to Guspaz' notice the difference in tone that comes through. Sorry I if I offended you by being offended by you! :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239920 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 07:38:26 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239463 anon : Rocky...this may give you some more things to think about. Here's my latest blog post on this subject. oh BTW...is it Bell that control all those lines the Government laid out in the mid 90's? Any update as to how close we actually are to filling up bandwidth capacity on those lines. I spoke with a CEO of a telecom company last year on this. I think Bell's got other plans here. Blog will explain. I'm also a New Media Producer BTW and use the Bittorrents to release content. I'll be hopefully presenting some arguments to the CRTC on this in the coming year in Ottawa.

»digitialmusiccopy.blogspot.com/2···ity.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239463 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:49:51 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239402 avernar :
said by chrish See Profile :

throws out your bottles
More accurately, he sees the bottles and leaves them there but without telling you anything he drives the rest of the way at 30km/h.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239402 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 01:28:07 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239237 chrish : My anology of what bell is doing would be:

You take a cab to the airport, but only half way the cab driver pulls over and checks your luggage like he is airport security, throws out your bottles, and finishes driving you to the airport so you can actually take the plane.

You complain but the driver tells you he has a right since your in his car, and tells you to f'off.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239237 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:30:09 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239229 shepd :
said by derekm See Profile :

Is this transfer when you are not doing *any* bittorrent traffic?
There was no other traffic on my DSL at that time, just the SCP transfer. I'm going to try again outside the throttling time tonight and see if it is faster. It should be, it normally *was*.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239229 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:28:21 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239182 derekm :
said by shepd See Profile :

Manged only 60 kbps sending and receiving files via SCP (from a link that should support much more than 60 kbps!).
Is this transfer when you are not doing *any* bittorrent traffic?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239182 Fri, 28 Mar 2008 00:15:41 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239042 derekm : So... Going back to mppe. What is the probability that those of us with the ability to, will be able to use it? I know that you need to support MSCHAPv2 on your radius server, and mppe on the pppoe tunnel endpoint, and that Teksavvy isn't doing this right now.

I think it's a great stopgap.

If/when they start throttling this type of traffic (encrypted at ppp-level), we can take the P2P demon out of the equation, simplifying this argument for everyone. (Especially considering it is not clear to everyone that P2P is a competitive service to Bell's, and not a piracy panacea).

Fundamentally, Bell should not be inspecting our packets, period. None of their f*n business what we are communicating to Teksavvy about. Goes back to the 5056/800 argument: Teksavvy (and subsequently, we) is/are paying for this type of connection, regardless of the traffic type. Bell are not providing the connection they are on the hook for. Bell have bandwidth surcharges to account for network capacity. (One of the many reasons) I left Rogers because I don't buy this argument.

I'd be happy to post ppp.conf/pf.conf configs, and point people to relevant documentation for getting started on setting up a FreeBSD box so that they can put their 233Mhz/32MB/4GB PC to use, and have ppp-level encryption. OpenBSD is great for this too!

Also, I'm interested, are those using bonded connections having throttling problems? I am planning to go this route shortly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20239042 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:43:10 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238873 gord27 : so i start up a youtube video and it's going painfully slow. i see my bandwidth from my system going about 0-20k tops and it made it about 4 seconds through the video in a minute. oh wait a second, i remember i've got torrents going, albeit throttled to 30k on my torrent box. rdp to it, exit utorrent, back to my youtube vid, reload the page and start the video and it plays instantly maxxing out 3meg connection. start up torrents again, then start up a different video (to avoid the already downloaded section affecting the results) and it's laggy as hell again. basically if i'm getting throttled youtube is also getting throttled.

i know this has probably been documented on here but i just want to say that this is bs and they really need to fix their throttling technology.

also, wanted to add that encryption no longer helps worth a damn. stuck on 30k/30k even with it forced. have not tried the new beta on my machine yet as my trackers don't allow it but on rogers it works awesomely even on public trackers so here's hope it works just as well on dsl.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238873 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:18:10 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238864 DarkStar33 : Toronto (Yonge & Eglington area) Throttling in full effect

Average transmission speed
Download: 40Kb/s
Upload: 60KB/s

Take a look at the TCP Reset Packets Rates! 30-60%

Captured with Azerus AZNet Plugin (»azureus.sourceforge.net/plugin_d···aznetmon)

1 of 2


2 of 2


Traffic
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238864 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 23:16:59 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238688 eots :
said by Tom2 :

Thank you for noting that the reply was from Sympatico. That was very helpful. I went to Bell's web site, clicked on Contact Us, the form asks what its about, I chose Internet (what else would I chose if you were me). I got a reply back from Sympatico. I really don't think you sniping that I wrote to the wrong people (which you are wrong about) is very helpful now is it! At least I'm trying to do something. I also wrote to the CRTC and Michael Geist at The Star. Would you like me to post their responses so you can criticize me?

What have you done except complain about my post? Have you written anyone??? I posted this so people could see Bell's canned response.

My point was that they HAVE A RESPONSE READY. Whether it came from India or not doesn't matter. Whoever you talk to will just parrot the company line.

What was your point again - oh that's right you don't have one.
A little thin skinned if you took that as criticism. You were being made aware that you received a response from Sympatico (not Bell as you assumed) that had nothing to do with the 3rd party ISP throttling. They have been spewing that response to every Sympatico customer for several months, it's nothing new.

I submitted my complaints to the CRTC and Competition Bureau as soon as it was confirmed that Bell was indeed interfering with 3rd party ISP customers.

Bell needs to be forced to sell off Sympatico and get out of the ISP business as it's an obvious conflict of interest when they can't keep their hands of other ISP's customers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238688 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:45:49 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238540 anon : you really think that these people don't make money off of selling "service" like this?

i'd gladly pay for it if it was actually from the copyright holders.

Fansubs are supposed to be shared freely, since you got it from free, you should reciprocate the gesture.

setting up an operation is clearly for profit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238540 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:22:25 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238538 matradley : 1. NNTP is throttled by Bell (right now)
2. Immoral, not really.. Unethical, maybe.

Regardless, I apologize for sending the conversation astray. Let's head back to the issue at hand.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238538 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:22:22 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238461 anon :
said by matradley See Profile :

Being a member of the community for 15-years, I do not believe that I an funding them for the actual videos rather the service itself. Being a network administrator and knowing the cost of equipment, bandwidth, staff, etc... the fee is not for the files, but for the service for which it provided by. In addition as an ex-fansubber, I know what it means to fansub. Otherwise, I would agree with you as I have seen people "pay" for fansubs on EBay actions. :{

At any rate, this would not have been the case if Bell did not Throttle BT et al...
But for the same price or less you can get a drasically superior service that is not limited to just anime from a news service provider.

It also seems a bit immoral for these people to be profiting by selling something that is not theirs. I don't see how anyone could support something like that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238461 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 22:10:03 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238394 anon : Man I left Bell because of this crap and now they do this .BELL will NEVER see another red cent from me as long as I live for ANY service . Oh no my upload speed just passed my download speed .DAMN YOU BELL..................]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238394 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:59:15 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238385 matradley :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

said by matradley See Profile :

As an alternative, if you want to anti-up 10 bucks US, you can go here and get HTTP downloads of anime - »www.animeground.com/ .
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should anyone EVER PAY FOR FANSUBS.

These types of pay-download sites are looked upon with extreme derision by fansubbers, and admitting to using one will likely get you banned from any respectable anime site or community.
Being a member of the community for 15-years, I do not believe that I an funding them for the actual videos rather the service itself. Being a network administrator and knowing the cost of equipment, bandwidth, staff, etc... the fee is not for the files, but for the service for which it provided by. In addition as an ex-fansubber, I know what it means to fansub. Otherwise, I would agree with you as I have seen people "pay" for fansubs on EBay actions. :{

At any rate, this would not have been the case if Bell did not Throttle BT et al... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238385 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:58:24 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238370 matradley :
said by MaverickHL See Profile :

said by matradley See Profile :

As an alternative, if you want to anti-up 10 bucks US, you can go here and get HTTP downloads of anime - »www.animeground.com/ .
Yes, although, what I seed and download are RAW no subs, I am mainly a person who seeds for fan sub. It just sux it is getting crippled.
Ah geez... You are our requiring factor for our industry. :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238370 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:56:23 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238343 aheintz : I'm currently with a diffferent DSL provider and about 2 night ago I was getting a max of 30kB downloading either it was bt or encrypted ftp transfers. When also checking my exchange server e-mail via a web interface in a secure site that was taking forever as well. As first I thought it was my ISP but talking to a friend who works there everything seamed normal. Reading this topic it all comes together.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238343 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:50:25 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238339 shepd : Manged only 60 kbps sending and receiving files via SCP (from a link that should support much more than 60 kbps!). Encrypted certainly appears and FEELS throttled, as typing in an SSH session is painfully slow, like the dialup days.

I'm on a 5 meg profile.

My connection definitely is throttled, downloading via bittorrent on torrents with 7k+ seeds is stuck at 25 - 30 kbps.

When I get a few minutes, I'll try an OpenVPN connection.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238339 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:49:36 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238320 patyeon : I did the same test as derekm, going out to a VPS (vr.org if you're interested) at 9.30PM. I am in Nepean (also known as Ottawa West these days) and my modem reports a 5056/800 profile.

At first, we're cruising along at ~160KB/s (no error in capitalization there). I'm quite happy with my service from Teksavvy. Then (6 seconds later) my upload speed starts mimicking the aerodynamic properties of a brick. By the time I've uploaded all 4MB, here's what scp tells me:
tmp4M.bin 100% 4096KB 28.8KB/s 02:22
Just to make sure, here I am downloading it back from my VPS:
tmp4M.bin 100% 4096KB 29.1KB/s 02:21

Now can I start panicking about all my encrypted traffic being throttled?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238320 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:46:17 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238216 derekm :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

If you're not throttled, then your test isn't very useful ;)
I would say I'm being throttled... :(

I've seen my upload go as high as 30 kBps, but unfortunately it's the same as my download...

Torrent Stats
Click for full size
Active Torrents
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238216 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:31:15 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238202 mac dude :
said by Name :

Just in case not everyone realizes it yet, but indications are that BellNexxia is not just slowing P2P connections. In an effort to stop encrypted BitTorrent, BellNexxia is going after ALL encrypted traffic. This includes VPNs, MS Terminal Server (RDP), and who knows what else. They are also disrupting VOIP connections and some online gaming traffic. When filtering is rolled out in your area, you will no longer be able to use any VPN, RDP or VOIP link and will suffer erratic ping times when gaming. Basically your internet connection will become useless for anything other than web browsing and checking your email over POP3.
I don't use P2P. I do use VOIP and it's been fine - how do you know these other types of things will be affected? Has anyones voip connection been affected in a throttled area?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238202 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:29:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238196 tranceduden : ^^ Are you kidding ? Bell's public image is of an old dying dinosaur monoply that relishes on waste and custmer dis-service. If there's a bigger company that has a worse reputation than Bell , please tell me who it is.

They don't care, and for those of us who understand the issue, this exactly the type of customer they want to get rid of anyway.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238196 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:28:58 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238149 anon : Bell is destroying its public image with these tactics - acting like any unregulated monopoly would like - in so doing risking our only recourse - ask the CRTC for more supervision or break them up to ensure competition.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238149 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:21:49 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238032 tranceduden : Brampton - Same deal here, it's been sitting around 30Kb/s for last 2-3 days. I was wondering what was up until I read the news today !

This is terrible news, knowing that Bell has an army of lawyers, I am sure there is some loophole in the contract to justify this ridiculous decision.

The only thing that I can think of happening is if CRTC intervenes but that's wishful thinking only.

Problem in this country is that communication/media networks are monopolized by 2 companies (duo-poly) who are slowly killing off all the smaller guys. :huh: :(]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20238032 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:06:24 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237989 MaverickHL :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

said by matradley See Profile :

As an alternative, if you want to anti-up 10 bucks US, you can go here and get HTTP downloads of anime - »www.animeground.com/ .
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should anyone EVER PAY FOR FANSUBS.

These types of pay-download sites are looked upon with extreme derision by fansubbers, and admitting to using one will likely get you banned from any respectable anime site or community.
You are correct on that one Guspaz, which is why I support the community by seeding (not so much now) RAW's from Japan.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237989 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 21:01:29 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237965 Guspaz : 800kbit sync
100KB/s raw
13% connection overhead
87KB/s remaining

Now take some more off for SSH/SCP overhead, and random internet delays, and you're getting about as fast as we would expect.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237965 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:58:33 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237854 anon :
tmp4M.bin 100% 4096KB 81.9KB/s 00:50


This is obviously a stupid question, but I assume you're in an area where use restrictions have been imposed?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237854 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:40:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237852 Guspaz :
said by matradley See Profile :

As an alternative, if you want to anti-up 10 bucks US, you can go here and get HTTP downloads of anime - »www.animeground.com/ .
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES should anyone EVER PAY FOR FANSUBS.

These types of pay-download sites are looked upon with extreme derision by fansubbers, and admitting to using one will likely get you banned from any respectable anime site or community.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237852 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:40:10 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237837 Guspaz :
said by derekm See Profile :

said by Guspaz See Profile :

Nobody has tried sending data through an SSH link and seeing if it caps at a stable 30KB/s
dd if=/dev/urandom of=tmp4M.bin count=4 bs=1M
4+0 records in
4+0 records out
4194304 bytes transferred in 0.592058 secs (7084280 bytes/sec)
$ scp tmp4M.bin xxx@yyy:~/
Password:
tmp4M.bin 100% 4096KB 81.9KB/s 00:50

I'm on a 5056/800 profile...
You completely maxed out your upstream sending that file, which clearly means that SSH is not throttled on your connection. If you're throttled, you just blew a huge hole in the "everything that is encrypted" panic that's been flying around. If you're not throttled, then your test isn't very useful ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237837 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:38:17 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237807 MaverickHL :
said by matradley See Profile :

As an alternative, if you want to anti-up 10 bucks US, you can go here and get HTTP downloads of anime - »www.animeground.com/ .
Yes, although, what I seed and download are RAW no subs, I am mainly a person who seeds for fan sub. It just sux it is getting crippled.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237807 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:33:59 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237796 Trisomy21 : No throttling here yet either. But according to the google map there are people in this city (in the University area) which are being throttled.

Thinking this will be resolved in weeks is a pretty poor estimate, Bell's lawyers will probably manage to keep things tangled up for a good year or two.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237796 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:32:12 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237640 matradley : As an alternative, if you want to anti-up 10 bucks US, you can go here and get HTTP downloads of anime - »www.animeground.com/ .]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237640 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:08:50 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237616 MaverickHL : Also throttled, a bit worse though at 10KB/30KB. Seeding 10 downloading one anime.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237616 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:06:44 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237568 mr_hexen : limewire is showing NO throttling, while torrents are...

8000+ seeds topped @ 30kB/sec.

2 limewire downloads connected to 9 hosts each, 530kB/sec....weird.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237568 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 20:01:18 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237534 derekm :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

Nobody has tried sending data through an SSH link and seeing if it caps at a stable 30KB/s
dd if=/dev/urandom of=tmp4M.bin count=4 bs=1M
4+0 records in
4+0 records out
4194304 bytes transferred in 0.592058 secs (7084280 bytes/sec)
$ scp tmp4M.bin xxx@yyy:~/
Password:
tmp4M.bin 100% 4096KB 81.9KB/s 00:50

I'm on a 5056/800 profile... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237534 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:57:25 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237520 kevin3000 : Wow.....My DL is currently sitting at 450kB....not so throttles after all.
On the other hand my UL is at 7kB......seems like I just went back to Cogeco!
Same type of situation I was in before. Great download speeds (Cogeco was 1.2MB) and terrible upload speeds.

The throttling is very similar now to all the other large ISPs.
It doesn't seem to affect download speeds so much but it sure as hell kills download speeds!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237520 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:55:18 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237467 derekm : Good thing I'm using BSD. :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237467 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:47:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237466 InvalidError :
said by thm655321 See Profile :

Oh c'mon now. All corporations are in business to make money, and as much as they can. You can't fault a corporation for that. Hey, what if we cap all your future earnings to what you make today?
Bell is engaging in anticompetitive behavior and there are laws to protect people and business from that.

And yes, laws are already capping the revenue I can get from racketeering, extortion, fraud and other activities... just like there are laws meant to prevent monopolies from abusing their position.

Microsoft was doing price gouging in the EU and got heavily fined for it. Microsoft defied the EU's interoperability ruling and they got heavily fined for it. Now, M$ is thinking twice before ignoring and appealing further decisions because so far, fines and penalties have only increased.

There are limits to how much monopolies can help themselves to other's pockets and interfere with other businesses' business. Bell needs to be reminded of that and a large fine with a few injunctions would go a long way towards making sure they will not forget the lesson any time soon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237466 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:47:35 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237385 matradley :
said by anonman :

I agree, the throttling seems to be lacking right now. (currently 400kb/s down)

This means either bell is switching areas on and off, or they are feeling the pressure of events.

If it is due to the pressure of events, I think this will just be temporary (day(s) or week(s)). I hope this does not detour the third party isp's as this is a situation that will without question be brought back in the future and perhaps under a more secure contract leaving less room for wiggle.
Maybe? Only thing I know is that my BAS (Ottawa) is still being throttled at the regular 30 KB/s.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237385 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:36:10 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237341 anon : I agree, the throttling seems to be lacking right now. (currently 400kb/s down)

This means either bell is switching areas on and off, or they are feeling the pressure of events.

If it is due to the pressure of events, I think this will just be temporary (day(s) or week(s)). I hope this does not detour the third party isp's as this is a situation that will without question be brought back in the future and perhaps under a more secure contract leaving less room for wiggle.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237341 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:31:17 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237247 thm655321 :
said by InvalidError See Profile :

said by jonlor See Profile :

said by InvalidError See Profile :

Including Bell?
Yep. The ultimate solution has to be beneficial to all parties involved. And like it or not, Bell is an involved party.
Monopoly + unfair business practices = potential antitrust lawsuit. Since when are antitrust rulings meant to be mutually beneficial?

It would be nice to see Bell smacked with a $500M fine, a permanent injunction barring them from any further
throttling on the wholesale side and another injunction barring them from raising their rates beyond inflation or cutting corners to recover their legal expenses for several years to come.
Oh c'mon now. All corporations are in business to make money, and as much as they can. You can't fault a corporation for that. Hey, what if we cap all your future earnings to what you make today?

I'm against Bell on the throttling, but not against corporations making money.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237247 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:18:16 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237235 InvalidError :
said by jonlor See Profile :

said by InvalidError See Profile :

Including Bell?
Yep. The ultimate solution has to be beneficial to all parties involved. And like it or not, Bell is an involved party.
Monopoly + unfair business practices = potential antitrust lawsuit. Since when are antitrust rulings meant to be mutually beneficial?

It would be nice to see Bell smacked with a $500M fine, a permanent injunction barring them from any further throttling on the wholesale side and another injunction barring them from raising their rates beyond inflation or cutting corners to recover their legal expenses for several years to come.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237235 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:17:20 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237232 LiQuiD : ANNNNNNNNNNNND if you use encrypted transmissions for email, even that will be slowed! ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237232 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:16:58 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237185 Guspaz : The problem is we only really have anecdotal information that they're throttling anything other than P2P. Nobody has tried sending data through an SSH link and seeing if it caps at a stable 30KB/s]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237185 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:10:18 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237170 anon : Just in case not everyone realizes it yet, but indications are that BellNexxia is not just slowing P2P connections. In an effort to stop encrypted BitTorrent, BellNexxia is going after ALL encrypted traffic. This includes VPNs, MS Terminal Server (RDP), and who knows what else. They are also disrupting VOIP connections and some online gaming traffic. When filtering is rolled out in your area, you will no longer be able to use any VPN, RDP or VOIP link and will suffer erratic ping times when gaming. Basically your internet connection will become useless for anything other than web browsing and checking your email over POP3.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237170 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:08:56 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237134 mr_hexen : throttled here in Brampton (north west) to 30kB/sec..upset to say the least. Already emailed CRTC.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237134 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 19:03:02 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237078 anon : they were basically informing us on the issue at hand. they also brought up CBC releasing "Canada's Next Great Primeminister" on torrents (looks like the plan for all of us to try and download it worked) and then a bell representative played on the usual BS stating that they were trying to spread the bandwith evenly etc. Then Rocky said that it was hurting his business as a majority of his customers are at Teksavvy for precisely this reason. All in all, it was important to have this issue on Canada's most important radio station at prime time as well. Reporter ended off by saying that the government might soon become involved. Also, a similar situation involving comcast was mentioned and it is said that a federal investigation is under way in the states.

"I dont think the issue is that there is light or heavy throttle.

It is more that there is any throttle at all which is in itself inacceptable"

I completely agree with you and that is not what I was implying. All I'm saying is that I think Bell has realized the trouble that they have put themselves in. I don't see it as a coincidence that as soon as this situation becomes public, they loosen their throttle.

"Anybody get a recording of this?"

I think it is available on the cbc podcasts.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237078 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:55:31 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237048 anon : Hey Rocky, big supporter here (and trust me, I'm merely at a friend's place right now). If you're in Toronto again in the near future, let us know, I'm sure a bunch of us wouldn't mind treating you and the team to lunch. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237048 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:50:06 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237025 Guspaz : Anybody get a recording of this? Or know which program it was so that it might be downloaded if possible?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237025 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:46:08 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237021 renton :
said by babaganush :

I just heard about this issue on CBC Radio 1.
Yup, was going to post about it. It made the news, I heard it at 5pm.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237021 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:45:22 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237019 qweloo : I dont think the issue is that there is light or heavy throttle.

It is more that there is any throttle at all which is in itself inacceptable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237019 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:44:56 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237015 LiQuiD : what was said on cbc radio? I'm interested because after what I saw on CBC's "The National" last night, I began to seriously think that Bell had them in their pocket.

Thanks for the update]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237015 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:44:26 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237008 anon : I just heard about this issue on CBC Radio 1. Rocky himself was interviewed and his/our opinions voiced. I am glad these 3rd party ISPs are taking this seriously. I think the government is going to get involved soon.

Also, is it just me or has the throttle lightened?
my BT speeds have gone from 25-30 kb/s to 150 kb/s at this time of day]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20237008 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 18:42:20 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236652 Guspaz : I looked into it, consumer hardware doesn't support ppp encryption.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236652 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:43:48 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236629 derekm : Okay,

I know IPSEC is probably not practical, but here's something that would probably work:

mppe at the ppp layer.

We could use encryption at the ppp layer, that should totally bypass *any* Bell packet inspection technology, and eliminate the complexity of IPSEC.

No leaks, no mess.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236629 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:41:08 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236460 cacruden : Almost like Charlie Chat :p

Don't know if he still does it, but he use to have these monthly chats on Dish Network in the US - where he tried to get everyone of there uber-interested Dishies to go out and lobby certain entities like their Congress reps.

C]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236460 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:10:55 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236418 iconfat : Rocky,

I believe you should notify all your subscribers by email about how bell is degrading their service. It should explain how bell is imposing their will on every independent isps accounts. It should also contain a link to the CRTC's complaint area so that this issue gets the attention it deserves. Doing this can only help us in our fight against bell. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236418 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:03:31 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236357 The Flash :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

My guess is the usual suspects. eBox, Acanac, Velcom.

Primus probably didn't attend, but at least is also pissed off about this and may pursue it independently.
The only suspect here is Bell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236357 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:50:51 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236326 Jean_22 :
said by Scrappy2 See Profile :

This could be a stupid question but couldn't it take years before this case even makes it to the courts?
And in the meantime Bell can Internet Traffic Management {throttle} as they please?
They could get an injonction to suspend the throttling in meantime though.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236326 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:46:45 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236041 anon :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

Tom2: That response they had ready is what they give when people complain about Sympatico throttling, which has been in force for a while now. They didn't realize he wasn't a Sympatico customer.
Thanks Guspaz. You are often the only voice of reason on these forums. I did make it clear with Bell I was with Teksavvy not Sympatico. My point again was you won't get anywhere with them (canned response) but you will annoy and waste the time of their support people - which makes it all worthwhile! Perhaps I was too harsh but I think less complaining that I or anyone wrote to the wrong company (I wrote to Bell/Sympatico) and more action by the individuals on here would actually accomplish something. At least I'm trying to do something. To most people Bell and Sympatico ARE the same entity. Why else would I go to the Bell Store to get a Sympatico Kit...

Michael Geist said he was already blogging about it (which everyone knows anyway) and that he would be writing an article for The Star soon. The more people bug him I would think the more he'd be inclined to do it sooner rather than later. Email him at mgeist@pobox.com

The CRTC gave a canned response to my email, they'll get back to me in 10 days, bla, bla. I selected that they have to send me a response as a physical letter by snailmail. That way it makes a bit more work for them and costs them more. Maybe they'll pay attention but probably it just ends up costing us taxpayers more to get a p*ss off response :o

Cheers
Tom]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20236041 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:05:01 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235982 Guspaz : My guess is the usual suspects. eBox, Acanac, Velcom.

Primus probably didn't attend, but at least is also pissed off about this and may pursue it independently.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235982 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:57:45 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235975 MikeG : Who else are you guys working with? Ebox? Acanac? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235975 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:56:24 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235857 Guspaz : Tom2: That response they had ready is what they give when people complain about Sympatico throttling, which has been in force for a while now. They didn't realize he wasn't a Sympatico customer.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235857 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:40:33 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235686 anon :
said by eots See Profile :

You didn't complaint to Bell if your response was from Sympatico Client Services. I seriously doubt their outsourced support in India have a clue what Bell is currently imposing on the Wholesale ISP's.
Thank you for noting that the reply was from Sympatico. That was very helpful. I went to Bell's web site, clicked on Contact Us, the form asks what its about, I chose Internet (what else would I chose if you were me). I got a reply back from Sympatico. I really don't think you sniping that I wrote to the wrong people (which you are wrong about) is very helpful now is it! At least I'm trying to do something. I also wrote to the CRTC and Michael Geist at The Star. Would you like me to post their responses so you can criticize me?

What have you done except complain about my post? Have you written anyone??? I posted this so people could see Bell's canned response.

My point was that they HAVE A RESPONSE READY. Whether it came from India or not doesn't matter. Whoever you talk to will just parrot the company line.

What was your point again - oh that's right you don't have one. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235686 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:19:13 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235625 derekm : Here is the email that I've sent my MP, and MPP. You can do the same:

Hello [name here],

I am writing to you today because I am furious over Bell Canada's unfair abuse of their phone network monopoly. They are required by the CRTC to resell their network services to third-party providers, in this case Internet providers.

I use the service of a third-party (TekSavvy, a small, privately owned) Ontario reseller, because over and above the network, the third-party provider provides me with things that a large company cannot. Namely, good customer service.

Bell is now implementing speed reduction for certain types of traffic on the connection between my house, and this third party provider. They say it is implemented only on P2P (Peer to peer) traffic, which has been demonized unfairly as a tool for copyright infringement, and criminal activity.

P2P technology is in fact a legitimate service, which allows a person to use the Internet connection *that they paid for,* to preform better than a client/server model. In addition, this traffic is being throttled between my house, and the third party ISP, all within Bell's network.

P2P is a new distribution model for commercial and independent artists and content providers, *including the CBC*, and provides services that would compete with Bell's TV offerings.

I would like to emphasize that this is unacceptable, and in my opinion, illegal, because they are using their monopoly to enforce their uncompetitive practises, and stifle fair competition.

More information is available at:
»arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20···ing.html

[name here], as my representative in the government, I would like you to protect my consumer rights, and put a stop to this bullying. We are not their slaves, we helped build their network with tax subsidies, and grants.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

[name here]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235625 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:10:52 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235579 Guspaz : It's not a tariff issue, it's a contract dispute. It's only a tariff issue if the contract DOES legally justify it.

Besides, CRTC would take months or longer to do anything.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235579 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:06:06 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235573 mazhurg :
said by Tom2 :

I wrote Bell

[...]

Electronic Customer Care
Sympatico Client Services
If you wrote to Bell (BCE) and Sympatico replied, that that is one F*^*%^up organisation with an identity crisis.

But then, the hydra just has one head, no?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235573 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:05:02 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235526 elwoodblues : Don't think it needs to go to court, this is a tarriff issue which can go before the CRTC]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235526 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:58:42 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235491 eots : You didn't complaint to Bell if your response was from Sympatico Client Services. I seriously doubt their outsourced support in India have a clue what Bell is currently imposing on the Wholesale ISP's.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235491 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:54:31 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235376 derekm : This is seriously balls.

I know this would be a lot of work on TekSavvy's end, but what about setting up IPSEC tunnels into your network? (and further reduce our MTU) Surely they aren't throttling those.

I will be writing my MP, I suggest you do the same.

-- Derek]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235376 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:37:49 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235365 chrish : someone mentioned getting an injunction since this is impacting the financial viability of the wholesellers]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235365 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:36:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235344 Scrappy2 : This could be a stupid question but couldn't it take years before this case even makes it to the courts?
And in the meantime Bell can Internet Traffic Management {throttle} as they please?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235344 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:33:54 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235305 anon : I wrote Bell to express my disgust and disappointment with their decision to "take out the competition". Apparently they have some text ready for people such as myself. This is what I got back (I especially like the part where they don't monitor or block anything - wonder how they know what they are slowing down???). My domain shows Rogers because I have both Rogers and Teksavvy. I use Teksavvy just for P2P.


Bell Sympatico has launched a solution to enhance the online customer
experience and improve Internet performance for all our customers during peak periods of Internet usage with the introduction of Internet Traffic Management. There continues to be phenomenal growth of consumer
Internet traffic throughout the world and Bell is using Internet Traffic Management to ensure we deliver bandwidth fairly to our customers during peak Internet usage.

Internet Service Providers (ISPs) across Canada are implementing similar solutions to continue to maintain adequate service levels.

Bell does not block any type of Internet traffic or application, nor do
we proactively monitor the content of customer communications or
activities on the Internet.

Internet Traffic Management is based on the requirement to optimize
network bandwidth resources, not on the content for which these
resources are used.

During peak periods of Internet usage, Internet Traffic Management is
used to balance bandwidth fairly between P2P file sharing and other
applications so that all customers receive fair use of the network.

Bell has a responsibility to maximize the ability for all customers to
use and enjoy their Sympatico Internet service and a responsibility to
deliver bandwidth fairly to its customers.

In order to fulfill these responsibilities, Bell is entitled under the
terms of the Service Agreement, to utilize technology that maintains or
enhances the performance of the Service and the integrity of its
network.

Also, the Service Agreement and Acceptable Use Policy (AUP) prohibit the use of the Service in a way that impairs the operations or efficiency of the Service or creates an unusually large burden on our networks. To
help ensure this does not happen during peak periods, Bell uses the
latest, state-of-the-art technology to better balance Internet traffic
and deliver fair use of the network to all of our customers.

We also continue to invest in the network to meet the growing demands of our customers. Like other ISPs, Bell is taking these steps to improve
the on-line experience for its customers.

Should you have additional questions or concerns, please send another
e-mail to my attention.

Thankyou and regards,

Mithun Sreekumar

Electronic Customer Care
Sympatico Client Services
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235305 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:28:31 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235303 jonlor :
said by InvalidError See Profile :

Including Bell?
Yep. The ultimate solution has to be beneficial to all parties involved. And like it or not, Bell is an involved party. It's their lines, their DSLAMs and their ATM network that backhauls the data to our friends at TSI. They have every right to be compensated fairly for that.

The problem is that they're the only game in town. So, when they make a boneheaded move like like this because they haven't invested enough in their own infrastructure, well, their customers (the 3rd party ISPs, that is) don't really have the choice to take their dollars elsewhere.

But ultimately, yes, this needs to play out favourably for Bell too...They can have their slice of the cake.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235303 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:28:24 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235198 Steve Jobs :
said by Deadpool See Profile :

said by travisc See Profile :

What sbrook said. Deadpool, I've noticed you've been very quiet since this throttling of the wholesalers thing broke - you should probably know better than to come in here with a relatively facetious remark that's just going to incite the Bell-haters.
I've only been quiet in regards to that particular subject. It's not my job to comment on those things. However I'm still helping Sympatico customers with their respective issues.

I'm not going to stop helping customers or ask questions in this forum simply because of what's going on.

Nor am I going to be dragged into that debate either. It's completely irrelevant and has zero impact on Sympatico customers and their existing service.
Deadpool doesn't think we would have an impact on Sympatico either. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235198 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:11:14 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235168 Stewy : WoW I'm just beside myself in reading all this.

It's as if Bell can't compete fairly so they hit below the belt and (try) to punish you by implementing unfair business practices.

Unreal but this cannot be permitted to stand.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235168 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 14:05:47 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235042 spooley : Go Rocky! Been with TS for 2 weeks and I am loving it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20235042 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 13:48:42 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20234541 bacon612 : Here's another good article. Not sure if this one has already been posted but here it is.

»arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20···ing.html]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20234541 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:37:45 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20234301 Trisomy21 : Thanks Rocky! lol love the article on Theregister.com
"Rocky VII: The Throttling" haha

I'll be convincing everyone to switch over, regardless, like I always have been.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20234301 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:06:10 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20233910 RuralOtt : Good luck, Rocky. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20233910 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 11:08:29 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20233343 Laidback : Rocky,

Although I am not a TekSavvy client, where do you want me to send my contribution?
I don't think my ISP is currently concerned about this as I have received no response from them. That would be enough for me to change over.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20233343 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 09:02:54 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20233277 shikotee : "It's the eye of the tiger, it's the cream of the fight,
Risin' up to the challenge of our rival.
And the last known survivor stalks his prey in the night,
And he's watchin' us all in the eye of the tiger."

C'mon.... You know you were thinking about it! ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20233277 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 08:39:12 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232443 KPaul : So Rocky, when you want, charge my account towards the legal defense :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232443 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:54:23 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232427 The Flash : I wonder which of these 3rd party ISPs are the ones that care.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232427 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:48:51 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232426 inferno_gn : Hi there,

It's wawr! *lol* That's what I used to say. :D

inferno_gn
--
Otaku Anime Network
»www.otakuanime.com/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232426 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:48:27 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232402 thm655321 : Rocky, if there is a proceeding of some kind, if available as a remedy you should seek an injunction to prevent Bell from throttling Teksavvy pending resolution of the issue.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232402 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:41:35 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232385 Kareeser : Mm, "uphill battle" reminded me of Vimy Ridge... another Canadian (at least, in our Canadian-spun history textbooks) victory :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232385 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:36:15 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232381 R0CKY : There has been a few filings over time on this particular topic, but here are the main links for Bell's GAS tariff... see under Gateway Access Service (GAS)

»www.crtc.gc.ca/8740/eng/2007/b2.htm

»www.crtc.gc.ca/8740/eng/2006/b2.htm

»www.crtc.gc.ca/8740/eng/2005/b2.htm

»www.crtc.gc.ca/8740/eng/2004/b2.htm
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232381 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:35:22 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232376 InvalidError :
said by R0CKY See Profile :

The biggest thing right now is to figure out all the needed angles to make sure this all plays out favourably for everyone.
Including Bell?

Since it may be years before Bell is forced to remove throttling for good, TSI&al. should start with requesting an injunction while the legality of throttling (CRTC Tariffs VS actual contracts), its observed effects on the customer's perceived QoS, its impact on the user base such customers leaving or threatening to, etc. are being assessed.

It would be nice if Bell got reprimanded with a fine large enough to clearly spell out "don't do that again" accompanied by a tariff and standards freeze to prevent them from making up their losses with price hikes or service degradation elsewhere.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232376 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:34:21 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232349 qweloo : Maybe TSI may want to avoid exposing any specifics re legal strategies/positions/facts/feelings/intentions that may help Bell.

Lets not forget any of the Bell croonies can come here and read the ISP intentions/positions if we are not careful.

That kind of advance knowledge can be quite detrimental to a case depending on what is leaked.

It goes without saying that TSI and all the 3rd party ISP fighting against this have all my support.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232349 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:24:34 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232272 anon : I can't thank you enough. Good luck.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232272 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:04:10 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232268 Paulius : Rocky,

You are an inspiration for all of us.

I wish you luck on this uphill battle versus the gigantic Bell corporation. I truly think that if the small ISPs get their brains together, something CAN be accomplished.

Let's hope we get something rolling soon.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232268 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:03:44 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232262 jfmezei : Mr Rocky,

I don't want to pry, but could you give any indication on whether the contracts ISPs sign with Bell are mere implementatiobns of the published tariffs with legalese surrounding them and terms such as contract cancellation issues, or is are there additional clauses above and beyond 5410 (that would discuss "Fair Use" for instance.)

In the type of meetinsg you had today, do ISPs drop trousers and compare their Bell contract to see if they all have roughly the same items ?

If the contracts Bell makes you sign have clauses that go against the spirit of the tariffs, this definitely has some traction with CRTC AND industry Canada.

Knowing whether the contracts go beyond the tariffs or whether Bell is just interpreting the Tariffs the way it wants would influence individual's structure of any involvement with Industry Canada and/or CRTC.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232262 Thu, 27 Mar 2008 00:01:50 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232085 R0CKY : Thanks for the support gang... We'll do our best to figure something out here!

More to come soon enough!

Rocky
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232085 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:30:02 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232078 Steve Jobs : START THE LEGAL DEFENSE FUND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232078 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:27:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232053 PlatooN :
said by HiVolt See Profile :

Thanks for the update, Rocky.

As always, you have my full support.
As Volt said, and I believe it goes without saying, WE'RE WITH YOU ROCKY! THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE US AS CLIENTS]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232053 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:20:42 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232016 HiVolt :
said by BryceS See Profile :

Check the grammar
LMAO, i remember having a good laugh at that.
--
GO LEAFS GO!
Don't question the authoritaaaa!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232016 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:13:39 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232010 HiVolt : Thanks for the update, Rocky.

As always, you have my full support.
--
GO LEAFS GO!
Don't question the authoritaaaa!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232010 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:13:03 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232004 BryceS : Check the grammar, »www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/···ess/home]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20232004 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:12:33 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231989 nanook :
said by R0CKY See Profile :

We'll be meeting with a Regulatory lawyer in the AM to start discussions
Sounds like you were less than impressed by Bell's bullshit ;)

Thanks for fighting the good fight, Rocky.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231989 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:10:10 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231987 invictive : Thanks for keeping us updated Rocky.

I am glad to hear you guys are going to be taking a stand against Bell, this throttling is ridiculous.

If you need any help, don't hesitate to turn to your custormers, we are a loyal crowd!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231987 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:09:42 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231981 PlatooN : once bell give you that written position, will it be made public?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231981 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:08:26 EDT Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231980 Ares45 : Thanks for the update, Rocky! It's much appreciated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231980 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:08:24 EDT Update on Throttling: Part 2... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231970 R0CKY : Ok.... now back in town from Toronto. Had a chance to discuss some of the issues at hand with a variety of organizations and ISPs today.

We'll be meeting with a Regulatory lawyer in the AM to start discussions while we wait for the officially documented version of Bell's position. Once we have this, we'll then be able to figure out if we move forward as a coherent group on this topic or not. The biggest thing right now is to figure out all the needed angles to make sure this all plays out favourably for everyone.

More to come soon...

Rocky
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TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20231970 Wed, 26 Mar 2008 23:07:10 EDT