  theninjasqua
join:2007-09-26 Oakville, ON
| reply to LiQuiD Re: CBC TV request for people to talk on camera about this issue
said by LiQuiD : Bell's response is to completely throttle all encrypted data, which is reprehensible. Are you sure of that? I don't think we have seen any definitive proof of this to know for sure, unless you've seen something I have not. --
-theninjasquad |
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 Laidback
join:2001-09-30 Woodstock, ON
·PrimusDSL
| reply to shawnb6 I just want to thanks those of you who responded to this. you have great writing skills.
To Shawnb, did the CBC not recently start using P2P for program downloading. I apologize for being vague on that, but I do seem to remember something about that. Bell's decision will obviously affect that also. |
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  Trisomy21
join:2006-04-27 Kingston, ON | Yeah they uploaded a torrent of Canada's Next Great Prime Minister, the last episode. Many people complained about waiting 6-12 hours to download it.
Hmm anyone know when this segment is going to air? I hope they use my video lol |
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  Quake110
join:2003-12-20 Ottawa, ON
·Velcom
| reply to Flannel said by Flannel :Michael Geist would be a good candidate, he's pretty well the expert in the Canadian field. He will be considered, no doubt about it. I think what the CBC wants is to interview the average joe. |
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  inferno_gn Premium join:2007-02-26 Verdun, QC
| reply to shawnb6 Hi there,
Problem is the average joe won't know what to do. *hehe* But seriously, we want to help the average joe to get out of Bell, but it's hard.
inferno_gn -- Otaku Anime Network »www.otakuanime.com/ |
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  LiQuiD BSD geek Premium join:2002-08-08 Anjou, QC
| reply to theninjasqua I started a post in the bell sympatico forum to guage just that, and I did so there to leverage the fact that they've been subject to this for a while. We had a few people post confirming this. Not only that, but also that the entire connection is crippled once you do something that is deemed worthy of throttling by bell's throttle boxes -- Windows is the virus. Linux is the vaccine, FreeBSD is the CURE |
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 aheintz Premium join:2007-06-24 Plattsville, ON
·Execulink
1 edit | said by LiQuiD :I started a post in the bell sympatico forum to guage just that, and I did so there to leverage the fact that they've been subject to this for a while. We had a few people post confirming this. Not only that, but also that the entire connection is crippled once you do something that is deemed worthy of throttling by bell's throttle boxes I agree that once you start using anything that bell does not like it completly throttles your connenction as that has happened to me. Edit.. Since online banking is encrypted traffic trying to manage your account takes a wheil at night as well |
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  Name
@teksavvy.com
from: JunkieXL 
| reply to shawnb6 Some hours ago I sent the following to Shawn Benjamin:
...
I want to emphasize an angle to BellNexxia's traffic policy that's been ignored in most reporting so far. Anecdotal evidence from people in areas where traffic shaping has been turned on indicates that Bell's tools are extremely blunt weapons. They are reportedly slowing down or rendering unusable all encrypted communications, including protocols used for voice over internet (internet phone services), possibly the secure HTTP protocol used for online ecommerce including online banking, and VPN protocols used to tunnel private data over the public internet. None of these tools are in any way related to P2P or overall traffic use, but all of them have been caught up in the overly broad net used by Ontario ISPs to filter internet traffic.
The implications for me when BellNexxia imposes traffic filtering in my area (Ottawa) will be severe. I will no longer be able to phone family in Vancouver over the Internet (at no cost) and will instead have to fall back on making long distance phone calls. I will no longer be able to manage my parents' computers remotely or easily share photos with them over our VPN. Closer to home, as a student, there is a very real risk that I will not be able to access academic research databases from off campus and will need to commute 40 minutes to access electronic materials I've so far been able to access at home. Bell has no legitimate right to impose these costs on me for any reason, let alone as collateral damage as part of a highly questionable war on P2P users.
Moreover, because Rogers implements the same policies as BellNexxia is imposing, it's not clear if I can get back the services I currently enjoy at any price short of the $3000 a month fee required for a dedicated commercial connection. I don't have that kind of money to spare.
My situation, though, is really just the tip of the iceberg. BellNexxia traffic shaping will severely impact people who telecommute from home and freelance/home business professionals who regularly need to move client files confidentially over the Internet. There is a very real risk that these people could be unable to do their jobs once BellNexxia's traffic shaping rollout is complete. I'm going to be severely inconvenienced by Bell; others who need to use VPNs for their jobs could be put out of work or forced to leave the province (!) to get unfiltered Internet access.
The whole P2P issue is really secondary to the fact that what Bell has done in the past few days is quantitatively different from ordinary P2P filtering as implemented by ISPs such as Bell-Sympatico and Rogers.
What Bell is doing is filtering their backhaul network which moves internet traffic from subscribers to third party ISPs. By placing filtration gear on the backhaul network, BellNexxia is restricting competition.
As you probably know, Bell-Sympatico filters traffic to restrict the use of P2P applications. Virtually all of Ontario's 3rd party DSL ISPs earned their market by offering unfiltered service. By imposing filtering on the backhaul network, BellNexxia has essentially prevented Bell-Sympatico's competitors from offering substantively better service than what Sympatico chooses to offer.
What's going on here is not a network neutrality issue as much as it is an apparent conflict of interest between Bell as an ISP (Sympatico) and Bell as an infrastructure provider (BellNexxia). The CRTC is supposed to prevent these kind of things from happening, *especially as BellNexxia's backhaul is regulated by CRTC order.*
My overall point here is that BellNexxia's questionable zeal to attack P2P users has lead to them adopting practices akin to using a nuclear device to kill a fly. They're going to penalize a lot of people for things that have utterly nothing to do with P2P or alleged overuse of Bell's backhaul bandwidth. What Bell is doing is unethical, unreasonable, a threat to privacy, and a threat to the Canadian economy.
I got several emails back and then the reporter on the case phoned me and we spoke for a few minutes. While he seemed to be most interested in people who have been burned by GB caps, I made a case that GB caps aren't the real issue and that the real problems are traffic shaping and Bell's conflict of interest. I was, however, caught off guard by the reporter's emphasis and probably didn't make a very good verbal case.
I'm not convinced the media has yet bitten down on the teleology of BellNexxia traffic shaping. They are certainly aware that something is going on, but they seem to be more interested in issues related to nextgen content distribution (the reporter specifically mentioned HDTV over Internet) and caps, but I don't know if they've cottoned on to the implications of traffic shaping yet. |
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  neko All Hail Canada Premium join:2006-08-11 canada
·Callcentric
·Cogeco Cable
·Future Nine Corpor..
·TekSavvy Solutions..
2 edits | Well I just wrote to Shawn, explicitly telling him that Tek has generous 200GB a month caps, CAPS aren't the issue. It's the throttling that's the point.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Shawn, I seen your post on DSLR reports. I thought I should write to you, just to get a few things clear.
The mainstream media, in general, has been obsessed about ISP's limiting data by 'Bandwidth caps'. This is *not* the case with my ISP: Teksavvy, & the recent fiasco with Bell.
Teksavvy give me a generous 200Gigabytes a month, to download. But Bell has been limiting the ability to download, in effect, cutting my bandwidth.
I tried to download the recent CBC showing of 'Canada's next Prime Minister' via bittorrent. It was abysmal! It took 11 hours to download.
This was due to Bell Canada's recent throttling. Teksavvy don't throttle their connections, but with Bell doing this, they are affecting my Internet connection.
I also use SSL FTP to transfer files to my family, securely. Home movies, pictures of the kids, songs that the kids made, etc...NO PIRATE STUFF - ALL LEGITIMATE.
If Bell suspect your line of doing any encryption; they throttle it!
Please ensure your story covers these points. Teksavvy don't have small caps. They have large caps that are throttled by Bell - Limiting my Internet experience.
Yours faithfully,
*** ****** -----------------------------------------------------------------
REPLY:
Thanks for your help, we are getting a lot or response. I have passed your name to our reporter please don't be offended if he does not call you to be interviewed as we have only 120 seconds to fill tonight. But your opinions are helping shape our story.
best, sb
Shawn Benjamin National Tape Producer CBC News 416 205 6645
-- ...virtue gives you heraldry. |
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  Scott Allison
@teksavvy.com
| reply to shawnb6 Re: Video and audio of BELL practices
I am all you smoking guns if they tape you tape them back and as they dont seem to care about privacy laws then why should i? A) After moving, was tricked baltantly into a 7 megabit 60GB capped account, this right after having dropped a 160GB external and going back to net and grabbing 84GB, -remedy took three weeks and ultimatly was never solved B) lied to over course fo three weeks that my 2 year ocntract for 5 megabit unlimited was restored. C) when thought it was fixed was playing ogame.org and developing my onine game, both non intensive bandwith things to do. Router declared 300Megabytes transfer over three weeks. D) Capped me anyways which was a violation, and on tap threatened to sue me or as they said considered me "actionable for use of a p2p client as the govt a few days ago made them illegal" that statement was false. I told them i considered them actionable for violation of my contract and changing it without contating me properly as per the contracts rules much as they have recently done to TekSavvy and 3rd party isps there blatant disregard for legal practices is astounding. E) then canceled contract on the above grounds and they still billed me and not only that have somehow tried to bill my father for MY INTERNET. they ever requested he return the modem. NOW IM 37 not 13. billing both of us is fraud again. and about that bill, 7 pages . and in my phone section is 50$ charge to satellite ironically its not payper view its a differant charge. thats also billed in the OH MY television section. F)note at tiome of the legal threat i was using utorrent and grabbing some free ebooks from northern journeys WHOM I AMY add have stated to me in email that they have no problem with me getitng the books via bittorrent and after we talked about it may in fact do future releases that way as it SAVES THEM THE DEVELOPERS AND PUBLISHERS MONEY. chronoss2008@hush.com i am leaving the net possibly as im not paying 34$ for 30Kbytes so bell silences me by taking away that which i pay for. I moved to TekSavvy for these reasons. There may be legal reasons i can't publically out these tapes unlike bell i should follow the law. |
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  neko All Hail Canada Premium join:2006-08-11 canada | @: Scott Allison
You have 'tapes' of Bell stating these things?
release them: Rapidshare, etc...get them out. Lets have a listen... -- ...virtue gives you heraldry. |
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  LiQuiD BSD geek Premium join:2002-08-08 Anjou, QC
| said by neko :@: Scott Allison You have 'tapes' of Bell stating these things? release them: Rapidshare, etc...get them out. Lets have a listen... just don't bother using BT to share them. |
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  scott allison
@teksavvy.com
| reply to shawnb6 Re: CBC TV request for people to talk on camera about this issue
A) they know i have tapes B) at time i did not state like the law says that i was taping until later on which is a privacy act violation im not going to prison to prove a point so while i have such , all it does is protect me form legal action from bell as they stated and make sure that any action they wish to take against me in future , id bring em.
AND i cant state enough , maybe everyone should do it and state at beginning "you say your taping for quality , im taping for legal protection...then proceed" All i can say is if i were subpoenaed or somehow the law were to be able to protect me then and only then id out them. Like i can say they already put me through hell im not going to jail or being sued for it on top of it. Privacy laws while great can protect the wrong people too. |
|
  Some more
@teksavvy.com
| reply to Arbalister @Arbalister
i brought this up at the facebook site that if you have a contract for a service with someone and they violate it you can use, if the cause of that isn't TSI but BELL you as a business have legal right to sue and may in fact class action it on behalf of other TSI contractee's and as TSI gives me 1$/month fo rsign up people who are thinking of getting unliited or unthrottled speeds they may apply to join that action. Need to pass that buy a lawyer but the great thing about cnauck law is like this. you get bad milk in a store , all the store owner needs to do is prove it came form supplier that way and instead of you sueing the store owner and then him sueing the supplier, YOU sue the supplier ( that lessens burden on justice system by factor of two and lessons hastle for businessman whom was innocent) also if anyone wants to ensure my legal protection via lawyer or legal fees should bell canada sue me for violating the privacy act, i'll release my tapes. otherwise all i can offer as an idea is to phone up the business office and say im taping the conversations state what tapes i have and then ask them to waive the privacy concerns, and out there repsonse. That might get an actual investigation going ....if they say NO. What has BELL after all to hide. The legal threat was very mean and i am like do they do this to kids? Do they do this to elderly or older people who are less savvy? Does Warner Brothers know about this? They own utorrent. Do they know BELL Canada is telling people there application is illegal to use? Do people realize that getitng free ebooks is legal even if i do it right in front of the RIAA/MPAA CEO? do you realize that getting tv off the net is no differant then taping with a VCR off the HDTV with a svideo cable? Do people realize that when i pay for 5 hammers a month, i want 5 hammers, not 2.5 ( which the shaping effectively does and as it does it at time when i cant pick up the other 2.5 it effectively stops me from getting less then half a hammer) as to my open source project i was developing, i have informed all involved im shutting it down publically. ill still make it and maybe find a way later to get it out. 30Kbytes is not what i need. at least triple that and i definately need the upspeed to send my dbase and files up to sourceforge.net daily. Last i checked its legal to download also so whats the big hoopla. So what if a few kids want some music and movies and tv. As long as htey dont sell that stuff no damage done. the next point is the main one. if you want to fight piracy go after tiawan that stomps 30000 dvdrs a day for commercial selling. go after that. and if everyone has access whose going to buy that? so ok tax the net with a liscense of 5$ ( 1.3bill a year and YOU figure out how to distro it) the cdr levy currently gets 40-60 mill a year so go with that. And remember that p2p is like advertising too. FREE i might add. look at dls for that cbc show. I have been watching net tv for years and now with new tech that is being surpressed you could have one tv ep at 140MEG thats the exact quality of a 350 meg xvid. an entire season of tv at under 4gb. if there going to start capping we should educate people on how to get these h264.mp4 recodes of xvids. that turns that so called 30Kbytes into 60-75Kbytes for your dling. for music aac and flac offer much better quality and aac can really get small. I also agree with an above poster it really is anti competitive for bell to do and like i showed on face book site, i cost bell 13000/year cause a what they did to me. think about that. they cant keep losing like that espeically when they may be getting sold to the teachers pension ( note that deal has a go ahead, i wonder how the mostly majority of that deal which is american will affect things ) so what if the people on the board are canadian, they will be american schills and prolly fall right in line.
BTW one of the things bell said to me was that they are activally using sandvine which uses an exploit on operating systems to traffic shape and protocol shape.
Last i checked using an exploit on me without permission is a federal offense and a very very SERIOUS one. |
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 Ontarionet
join:2005-07-05 Guelph, ON
| reply to shawnb6 What about a report on how Bell OWNS the lines and is virtually a MONOPOLY as is Rogers (more or less) and how the Canadian government allows this?
Isn't CBC owned/controlled by the government? Ooops... I guess we won't be seeing that report anytime soon. |
|
 Ank14
join:2008-01-04 | reply to shawnb6 Re: CBC TV request for people to talk on camera about this issue
»www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008···ity.html
found this just now, dont know if it was posted already. |
|
 Mark Rejhon
join:2004-02-02 Ottawa, ON
·Magma Communications
| reply to Name I nominate that Shawn at CBC should also give coverage to Voip users (i.e. Vonage) who are being interfered by these throttling issues. This can seriously affect ability to place phone calls, including 911 calls, as Vonage now supports them. quote: Some hours ago I sent the following to Shawn Benjamin:
...
I want to emphasize an angle to BellNexxia's traffic policy that's been ignored in most reporting so far. Anecdotal evidence from people in areas where traffic shaping has been turned on indicates that Bell's tools are extremely blunt weapons. They are reportedly slowing down or rendering unusable all encrypted communications, including protocols used for voice over internet (internet phone services), possibly the secure HTTP protocol used for online ecommerce including online banking, and VPN protocols used to tunnel private data over the public internet. None of these tools are in any way related to P2P or overall traffic use, but all of them have been caught up in the overly broad net used by Ontario ISPs to filter internet traffic.
|
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 a1_Andy Premium join:2005-12-29 Peterborough, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico
1 edit | reply to scott allison said by scott allison :
A) they know i have tapes B) at time i did not state like the law says that i was taping until later on which is a privacy act violation im not going to prison to prove a point so while i have such , all it does is protect me form legal action from bell as they stated and make sure that any action they wish to take against me in future , id bring em.
AND i cant state enough , maybe everyone should do it and state at beginning "you say your taping for quality , im taping for legal protection...then proceed" All i can say is if i were subpoenaed or somehow the law were to be able to protect me then and only then id out them. Like i can say they already put me through hell im not going to jail or being sued for it on top of it. Privacy laws while great can protect the wrong people too. did the bell recording not say to you "this call may be recorded"? |
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 padenom
join:2008-03-28 Montreal, QC | reply to Ank14 Saw that report a few minutes ago. Please click the recommend link and add comments to the post too.
PS: removing cbc.ca cookies allows you to recommend again  |
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