ftp1020
join:2007-01-30
Canada
 ·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Arbalister
Re: Well, now I cant get my work emails...
said by Arbalister  :Deadpool, hate to mention it, but that last paragraph, to me, reads "when Sympatico started throttling we started to hemorrhage customers faster then we could fix them..." And points to the real reason they implemented system wide throttling. I've assumed all along that it was all about anti-competitiveness and not about network capacity, and have framed my complaints to the agencies and MPs in precisely that way. The fact that it also affects VOIP (and helps Bell POTS retain customers) is surely no coincidence. |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Arbalister
said by Arbalister :said by Deadpool :said by HiVolt :Another thing. Bell started throttling their own people in November... Shouldnt they have resolved most of these issues, such as throttling other protocols/applications? If they introduce such a dramatic change of service, shouldn't it at least be close to bulletproof? Unfortunately, the one's who did complain the loudest didn't stick around to help me troubleshoot the problem! Also, if none of those who did complain weren't using the same applications that are being brought up now as problematic, then it wouldn't have mattered anyhow. Deadpool, hate to mention it, but that last paragraph, to me, reads "when Sympatico started throttling we started to hemorrhage customers faster then we could fix them..." And points to the real reason they implemented system wide throttling. That would be a mis-interpretation of my statement. Believe it or not, there aren't thousands of people who are impacted by this or even know that they're impacted by this.
Do you know how many customers I reached out to/pinged me in regards to issues that shouldn't have occured, in this very forum? About a dozen.
And if you look in this very forum at the amount of people who have brought up applications negatively impacted, I believe it's even less then that (right now). Which is what this conversation is about.
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3  ...GO SENS GO  |
|
eots
join:2003-02-04 | There are more than likely thousands of Sympatico customers who have been suffering in silence because they don't know about this forum and only know to call 310-Surf, which won't help them in the slightest because all they do is script read. |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| said by eots :There are more than likely thousands of Sympatico customers who have been suffering in silence because they don't know about this forum and only know to call 310-Surf, which won't help them in the slightest because all they do is script read. Maybe so, then again, maybe not. Neither of us can really prove it either way.
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3 ...GO SENS GO |
|
LiQuiD
BSD geek
Premium
join:2002-08-08
Anjou, QC
| said by Deadpool :said by eots :There are more than likely thousands of Sympatico customers who have been suffering in silence because they don't know about this forum and only know to call 310-Surf, which won't help them in the slightest because all they do is script read. Maybe so, then again, maybe not. Neither of us can really prove it either way. Deadpool, this is in no way meant as an attack on you, but sure we can prove it.
I'll call 310-surf and say "my vpn suddenly doesn't work/my vpn is ultra slow, but everything else works ok"
phone rep: Oh I'm sorry, we don't support vpn, you'll need to contact the IT admin of where you're attempting to connect.
For chrissakes, until a couple of years ago (can't speak more recently as i never deal with them anymore), if you'd call about your modem catching fire but mention you had it attached to a hub/switch, they'd say they can't support your configuration and give up on you |
|
Name96
join:2008-03-28
| reply to iconfat
Deadpool, if you're not going to do something constructive to fix these problems then you have no business posting here. If you're willing and able to ensure that Nexxia loads whitelist signatures for every protocol disabled by the the P2P dragnet, then go ahead and do it. Start with these:
HTTPS on any port
POP3S on any port
SMTPS on any port
IMAPS on any port
RDP
RDP-TLS
IPSEC
IPSEC over UDP
OpenVPN over UDP
OpenVPN over TCP
SIP + RTP
SSH
Skype
If, on the other hand, all you're going to do is sit here and shill for Bell, then go back to the Sympatico forum and stop insulting our intelligence and wasting our time.
--
Coridon Henshaw -=- »www.talisiorder.ca |
|
eots
join:2003-02-04
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Deadpool
Actually I personally know many people who are still Sympatico customers who have issues with their service but have given up on tech support. Despite my giving them the URL to the Sympatico Direct forum they still haven't used it to get their issues resolved. It's apathy brought on by years of bad telephone support so they just don't bother anymore and wait for someone else to complain instead. |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to LiQuiD
I should have clarified my post. I was referring specifically the "there are more then likely thousands of Sympatico customers who have been suffering in silence" comment, not the 310-SURF piece. Sorry.
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3 ...GO SENS GO |
|
LiQuiD
BSD geek
Premium
join:2002-08-08
Anjou, QC
| Guys, don't shoot the messenger. He cant' just go do whatever he feels like. For all you know he might even hate that bell is doing this, it's not like he can come out and say so.
That said, good clarification Deadpool  I'll even go further and bet lots of people don't even realize they'd be throttled, if they're only surfing the corporate intranet and what not. Also, some companies are moving away from vpn, and using a setup involving http access with login/pass. That would certainly overcome throttling issues |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Name96
said by Name96 :Deadpool, if you're not going to do something constructive to fix these problems then you have no business posting here. If you're willing and able to ensure that Nexxia loads whitelist signatures for every protocol disabled by the the P2P dragnet, then go ahead and do it. Start with these: HTTPS on any port POP3S on any port SMTPS on any port IMAPS on any port RDP RDP-TLS IPSEC IPSEC over UDP OpenVPN over UDP OpenVPN over TCP SIP + RTP SSH Skype If, on the other hand, all you're going to do is sit here and shill for Bell, then go back to the Sympatico forum and stop insulting our intelligence and wasting our time. If you've read all my posts in these threads you'd realize I'm actually trying to help.
You'd also see that I explained clearly that the way it works, so listing the specific protocols isn't going to help. I also already said that your ISP has to bring those to Nexxia's attention - I can't do that for you or them.
In addition, it's easy to make a blanket list without even showing me if any troubleshooting was done to rule out any other conditions that can contribute to those applications not working properly.
Throttling is an easy thing to blame when it makes sense to blame it. However I've proven many times over since November in the Sympatico forum to individuals who thought throttling was the root cause of their issue, which I was able to not only disprove but also help resolve the actual underlying issue.
What testing have you done to come to the conclusion that throttling is impacting all of those applications you list and have you personally tested all of them?
I'm not saying that it isn't occuring either, nor am I trying to ignore the fact that it might be (I've already repeated that many times), however to simply blame it as the easy root cause isn't the best way to do it either.
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3 ...GO SENS GO |
|
Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Deadpool
said by Deadpool :said by eots :There are more than likely thousands of Sympatico customers who have been suffering in silence because they don't know about this forum and only know to call 310-Surf, which won't help them in the slightest because all they do is script read. Maybe so, then again, maybe not. Neither of us can really prove it either way. But consider the sample size, here. You've mentioned a dozen sympatico customer, out of those active on *this* forum. In the time since Sympatico admitted throttling, I personally have signed up a dozen people changing from Bell (I run an ISP myself.) Teksavyy has signed how many more? Acanac?
In 12 years of ISP business I've never seen such a reversal of the flow of customers - I'm used to losing customers to Sympatico high speed, not gaining them. And even then, the ones I lose are usually due to misinfomation - they either didn't know I offered DSL or they got sucked in by a "bundle" that's going to "save money." ("Just give us 50 bucks a month more, and we'll give you 10 bucks back! See! You save!" Meanwhile I sell highspeed for 35...."Um...save what?")
Anyhow, on topic. It's readily evident that this move has already hurt Bell in subscriber numbers. And novice to the industry can see that. It's blatantly obvious that this move is to make it hurt the ISPs as well. And by ISPs I only include the independants. Rogers, Cogeco, Shaw, Bell...they aren't ISPs. Not until it's their primary business, and they are no longer the suppliers of essential services to competing independants. |
|
Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
2 edits | reply to Deadpool
said by Deadpool
You'd also see that I explained clearly that the way it works, so listing the specific protocols isn't going to help. I also already said that your ISP has to bring those to Nexxia's attention - I can't do that for you or them.
But you see, that's part of the issue. Why in gods name should *your customer* have to diagnose *your problem?*
It's lazy, sloppy implementation. All that shows us is that the supergenious in charge of setting this up made exactly one decision: "Well...okay...turn it on. If it breaks stuff people will call and tell us. Oh...and if they don't, then just leave it all on..."
So now you have hundred, thousands, hundred of thousands of customers wondering what they did to break something that worked fine yesterday. Most of them aren't going to go "whoa! Bell busted something call 'em!" Trust me, this I know. Case in point, last week 5 of my incoming PRI's were dead due to a T3 cut just out of town. Nearly 150 of my dialup lines dead. I got hundreds of calls, people just getting busy signals. That's the good news - those people I can tell "the lines are down, just be patient..." Since then I've had at least as many calls..."I haven't been able to get online since..." Not because I still have dead lines, but because they assumed it was something on their end and "fixed" it. I spend 2 weeks undoing what people do to their machines for 5 hours downtime. You *know* the same thing is happening with vpn, rpc, and any number of other higher technology means of getting from a to b. If people can screw up dialup so bad because of a busy signal, how bad are IT departments making things trying to fix slowdowns or connectivity issues that appear to be internal but are actually caused by Bell throttling?
What testing have you done to come to the conclusion that throttling is impacting all of those applications you list and have you personally tested all of them?
Diagnosis is simple. "Hey, this worked before throttling, now it doesn't. What do you think the cause is?" |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Arbalister
For anyone who's taken a course in data analysis though, most times a sample size of a few hundred to a thousand (max), is usually enough to get an accurate perception of what you're trying to figure out (compared to doing multiple thousands - the numbers may differ somewhat, but we're talking +/- 2-3%, which isn't significant from an analysis point of view).
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3 ...GO SENS GO |
|
Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| said by Deadpool :For anyone who's taken a course in data analysis though, most times a sample size of a few hundred to a thousand (max), is usually enough to get an accurate perception of what you're trying to figure out (compared to doing multiple thousands - the numbers may differ somewhat, but we're talking +/- 2-3%, which isn't significant from an analysis point of view). Which is still meaningless because we don't know the ratio of the sample size here to the Sympatico userbase. |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Arbalister
I'm getting deja-vu here from November.
It's not sloppy or lazy implementation. We're talking about one-of's here that don't even fall into an 80/20 rule of development (whether hardware or software).
If you provide an ISP service you know this as well that when you launch a new service cannot account for every single scenario that can go wrong. Your confident in the testing that occured and that all the use cases were covered.
But if something goes wrong, you deal with it. But if everything looks OK in your equipment (based on logging ans whatever dashboard you've created), how would you know it's broken unless your customers tell you?
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3 ...GO SENS GO |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to Arbalister
said by Arbalister :said by Deadpool :For anyone who's taken a course in data analysis though, most times a sample size of a few hundred to a thousand (max), is usually enough to get an accurate perception of what you're trying to figure out (compared to doing multiple thousands - the numbers may differ somewhat, but we're talking +/- 2-3%, which isn't significant from an analysis point of view). Which is still meaningless because we don't know the ratio of the sample size here to the Sympatico userbase. Thank you! Exactly my point! You can't argue the numbers either way (your's or mine)!
Now we're on the same page! 
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3 ...GO SENS GO |
|
mazhurg
Premium
join:2004-05-02
Portage La Prairie, MB
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·MTS
1 edit | reply to Deadpool
.... So, according to your world, I, as an independant ISP must:
Figure out, once my application is no longer working properly, and that can be anything touching the net that is non standard or in that 80/20 curve, what is worng; convince my provider that the problem is not on my end; wait until my provider figures out why the issue arised; wait until my provider contacts BCE and convince them that there is an issue; then wait until they issue is worked on and resolved...
Lots of waiting for a flick of a switch, no?
And one wonders why users are so outraged.
and for something that WAS working prior... |
|
Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to Deadpool
said by Deadpool :said by Arbalister :said by Deadpool :For anyone who's taken a course in data analysis though, most times a sample size of a few hundred to a thousand (max), is usually enough to get an accurate perception of what you're trying to figure out (compared to doing multiple thousands - the numbers may differ somewhat, but we're talking +/- 2-3%, which isn't significant from an analysis point of view). Which is still meaningless because we don't know the ratio of the sample size here to the Sympatico userbase. Thank you! Exactly my point! You can't argue the numbers either way (your's or mine)! Now we're on the same page! I'm not arguing numbers. I'm stating that 12 people here is a huge number considering the trivial proportion of sympatico posters here to overall subscribers to the service. You can go ahead and say that 12 people here is nothing because such a huge number of sympatico subs post here...and then we will laugh because apparently Sympatico sub numbers are far worse then we ever imagined. And that would be more evidence towards the anti-competetive nature of this move to throttle. |
|
Arbalister
join:2007-11-24
St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to mazhurg
said by mazhurg :.... So, according to your world, I, as an independant ISP must: Figure out, once my application is no longer working properly, and that can be anything touching the net that is non standard or in that 80/20 curve, what is worng; convince my provider that the problem is not on my end; wait until my provider figures out why the issue arised; wait until my provider contacts BCE and convince them that there is an issue; then wait until they issue is worked on and resolved... Lots of waiting for a flick of a switch, no? And one wonders why users are so outraged. Yeah. Ain't it special? That's nothing more then "lets see if they notice" implemenation.
Guess what? We noticed. |
|
Deadpool
Go Sens Go
Premium,VIP
join:2001-03-29
Canada
·Bell Sympatico
| reply to mazhurg
said by mazhurg :.... So, according to your world, I, as an independant ISP must: Figure out, once my application is no longer working properly, and that can be anything touching the net that is non standard or in that 80/20 curve, what is worng; convince my provider that the problem is not on my end; wait until my provider figures out why the issue arised; wait until my provider contacts BCE and convince them that there is an issue; then wait until they issue is worked on and resolved... Lots of waiting for a flick of a switch, no? And one wonders why users are so outraged. and for something that WAS working prior... It's not "my world", it's reality. Independant ISP's do this today already (whether rightfully or wrongfully is not what I'm debating here). And you already do part of this today as well when you call into your ISP with a problem. Do you think they troubleshoot your PC and setup first to rule out their equipment? No, they do it first to rule out your's.
--
Leafs lead season series 4-3 ...GO SENS GO |
|
