said by TakeTheFifth :

And if Bell keeps this up, DSL will lose the battle to cable.

Phil

said by Arbalister :

What they are affecting is the 'last mile' bandwidth - the route through the Bell ATM cloud that links the end user to their ISP. Really, honestly, they're not filtering the internet at all. They are filtering what people bring in from the internet, onto Bells private network. This is what's so wrong about it - companies like TSI have leased specific amounts of bandwidth in that cloud. For all intents, they own it. Its just like when you rent a house - for all intents, you own it. Even the landlord needs to provide you written notice when he's going to set foot in it. The landlord is expect to maintain it, but if he ever told you that you can't have pizza delivered anymore, you'd laugh at him.

Bell just told us we can't have Pizza delivered.

said by Antonin :

You don't run a successful business by neglecting to plan. Bell has clearly demonstrated (hell, they've admitted it) that they fell down when it comes to planning. Also, by not informing their "resellers" in advance (even under non-disclosure, if necessary) they've clearly demonstrated that they don't trust anyone.

said by ShadPTR :

Yes, that's just worth it in itself. :)

said by DjEclipse :

I don't know about gaming, but it's worth the switch to Teksavvy just for the price alone. And any new customer they get is help in the fight against Bell.

said by mrseldowski :

Hey has anyone had problems with online gaming? High pings etc. ? I'm moving back to Waterloo for school in the summer and I know some people in the house I am moving into. They are using Bell Sympatico and apparently they get really high ping when playing games. I am not looking forward to that :(
Also if they change to TekSavvy would that at all effect the problem they are having? I know they throttle torrents but how would that affect online gaming ping?

said by mazhurg :

This is why I fully intend to stay with them, and they will get more of my business.

said by nanook :

Then we will have the CRTC to protect our interests :D

said by nanook :

But seriously, I am just responding to jfmezei 's argument that Bell uses DPI as a marketing tool and/or that they use it to invade our privacy. There is no evidence that they are.

BTW someone who naively looks at TSI's business model, where they pay 2/3 of their revenue to Bell for POTS and then have to provide everything (plus more, e.g. 200GB unthrottled, competetent support and administration) that Sympactico (supposedly) provides for a mere $10/month, might conclude that TSI is doomed. Obviously Rocky and crew have proven such conclusions false. "Little guys" can compete with dinosaurs a lot better than most of us are willing to give them credit for.

said by mazhurg :

Look further. What happen, when through this, no competitors are left?

said by nanook :

How does this "compromise your privacy"?

Great! If Bell wants to offer me a package "tailored to the type of internet usage you are making" then bring it on. Competition is good. Let Bell see that I use a lot of bandwidth for which I pay TSI $30/month. I look forward to an offer from Bell for [truly] unlimited and unthrottled bandwidth for under $30/month. Don't you? Don't we all?

said by jibby :

I mean, say Teksavvy didn't sell DSL, they came up with an IPTV solution and were buying the GAS to service some kind of TV terminal to their customers.

Arbor Networks... announced today that it has completed its acquisition of Ellacoya Networks...
The new Arbor provides intelligent visibility across the network (from core to broadband edge) and protection from network threats (routing issues, DDoS attacks, high bandwidth consuming applications like P2P, and VoD).

said by jfmezei :

>Bell's traffic management no more compromises your privacy
>than does Gmail when they scan your e-mail looking for
>keywords to generate appropriate ads.
Bell is not your supplier. It is the supplier of your ISP. Bell has no business peeking into contents of your data on lines that are circuits between you and the ISP.

If Bell decides to use the stats they collect on you, they can then feed this to their marketing machine and start offering you packages that are tailored to the type of internet usage you are making with teksavy.

They may look at your history of internet usage and just refuse you as a customer should you have some type of mental disorder and decide to subscibe to Sympatico.

With Bell, you have never authorised them to peek into your data and service you at different speeds depending on what you do.

Bell is acting as a common carrier between you and the ISP and cannot discriminate based on what type of data is being sent on those private circuits between you and the ISP.

said by TSI Jason :

Yup, done in about an hour, wanna play some TF2?

said by Angelo_ :

:P working late on a sunday? :|

said by bunchofbscrap :

yestrerday i wasw playing some fifa via ps3
online

freeking horrible man,

does this crap have incluence on gaming?

doesn't gaming work like p2p in some sort of way?

said by rusure :

oops, sorry you're the 2nd post on that other thread, i thought you where the initial poster, sorry about that..

said by Name :

In practice it's essentially disabled. Bell's filters work by slowing down packets in transit. This results in packet latencies into 1000ms range--high enough to make VoIP completely unusable.

said by jfmezei :

>Regular Videotron service isn't throttled either, just
>capped.

Which is why Bell will delay as much as possible introduction of its "new and improved" throttled service to areas served by Videotron. (and why Ontario is being throttled first.)

said by CanerisErik :

Because Toronto is not the centre of the universe.

said by adisor19 :

Suddenincreasedlevelofsatisfaction is making me wanna punch something :mad:

Adi

said by Maynard G Krebs :

TSI,

Why don't you and all the other independent ISP's serving Toronto buy Toronto Hydro Telecom, complete with its own lit and dark fibre infrastructure and do powerline or wireless access to your new backbone?

said by Maynard G Krebs :

Bell is monitoring your private communications between you and your lawyer - violating attorney/client privilege.

Bell is monitoring your correspondence between you and your doctor - violating doctor/patient confidentiality.

said by Tack :

I'd be inclined to defer such judgment until it's clear how many customers I lose as a consequence of this change.

Speaking for myself, it's unlikely I will leave TSI because I'm here for other perks (unfiltered outbound, static IP). However I may drop one of my two DSL lines if I can no longer on average benefit from the speed increase.

said by R0CKY :

Don't missenterpret the financial benefits. Both TSI and Bell will gain financially on the bottom line...

said by Jean_22 :

VoIP is throttled?

said by Lewism8 :

If I understand, everything but HTTP is throttled ?!

said by jkg :

from Sweeney's letter: "the majority of your end users will experience an increased level of satisfaction." this has not been the case with me. i keep losing my SSH connection to work (along with RDC) every 5-10 min. this is without using torrents of any kind. not sure what causes this, but i didn't have this problem earlier in the month.

said by Arbalister :

That's the beauty of Bell's scheme. Lost to whom? Cable? They throttle or charge more. Another ISP? Nope...we're throttling them too.

said by Guspaz :

Short-term, sure. But what about lost business?

said by Name "Bell is slowing down your online banking because they can't tell the difference between you downloading a movie and you managing your money."[/BQUOTE :

Downlaoding a movie IS managing your money :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20247071 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:40:13 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20247063 jfmezei : >When Bell is inspecting packets, it only inspects the header
>information and then applies it's traffic shaping based on
>what it finds in the header.

I posted the links to the Ellacoya PDF files. The above is wrong.

DPI means going into the packet DATA to look for application signatures.

Inspecting headers: determining a file is C source code by looking at the file's extension (.c)

DPI: Searching the file's content for tell tale strings such as #include or #define or main(

Bell is doing DPI. And the Trafic shaping vendors's document clearly state that they go beyond the header and will work even for applications that use random port numbers or try to shield themselves as HTTP transactions.

Bell and that other devils are paying big money for those machines, and you can bet that as they collect traffic information, they will adjust their filters as they want. So when hjackers find a way around their expensive ellacoya boxes, Bell simply needs to add new filters to block the new technique.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20247063 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:37:42 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246982 BronsCon : I think they're referring to TekSavvy customers with only TS and Bell as ISP choices having an increased level of satisfaction with Bell service when they stop throttling THEIR lines.

I'm glad this doesn't affect me, but I've been following it since it started and let me tell you, if I thought I could get some large incendiary devices across the border, I'd consider helping you guys out. LOL (NSA, I'm freakin' kidding, ok?! Don't come arrest me, I'm not a turra-rist!)

I suggest talking amongst yourselves, finding out who among you works for the gas and electric companies and organizing as much infrastructure maintenance as possible, with emphasis on accidentally cutting as many Bell cables as possible; preferably their backbone links as well as last-mile cabling. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246982 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:18:05 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246939 LiQuiD : And here I thought public services meant over the internet... oops. :uhh: :uhh

Teksavvy's smtp is a "private service" i suppose, in that only teksavvy clients can use it. Did they change the port? Yeah, exactly. Do what they (and many others) do and restrict access.

If you're really that concerned, have global access to only ssh, and use something like authpf through pf so that once you ssh to your firewall machine, you have complete access to everything. If someone doesn't login via ssh, no dice.

Anyway, just realize that YOU might think it's good practice to change a port. Doesn't make it a globally accepted good practice.

Hmm, my dns server is private, I think i'm gonna go change the port number on that... :p
--
Windows is the virus. Linux is the vaccine, FreeBSD is the CURE]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246939 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:07:56 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246924 Name : Rocky, are you planning to seek an emergency injunction against Bell anytime soon?
--
Coridon Henshaw -=- »www.talisiorder.ca]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246924 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:05:24 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246906 Stiffarm :

said by LiQuiD :

Unless you have a _good_ reason to change a port number, don't.

Actually, you should be saying: Unless you have a _good_ reason to *not* to change a port number, do it.

A good reason not to change ports would include those public services you mentioned and wish to expose. For private services... move it.

Sorry for getting off topic on this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246906 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 11:01:58 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246791 LiQuiD :

said by Stiffarm :

In order to use an encrypted protocol I will have to use it on a standard port. Otherwise this will get throttled. One of the first things I always do is move a service away from its standard port unless it is absolutely necessary to keep it there. This is common security "best practice."

Now I'm being forced to decide between opening myself up for attack, or having a service that will be ostensibly broken due to throttling.

Uhm, do tell me where you see that this is common best practice. If it was best practice, I doubt we'd have something like a listing of standard ports, and how exactly would email, http, ftp (ftp-data, ftp through proxy/firewall) et. al. work if the ports were all over the place?

If someone wanted to exploit a service on your system, changing the port wouldn't do much to avert it. Changing the port only prevents those "script kiddies" from gaining access, but in reality, keeping your system up to date and patching it when the patches are out will prevent that on it's own.

Unless you have a _good_ reason to change a port number, don't.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246791 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:40:23 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246759 Name : Phone harassment is illegal and rarely effective.

But if you you only have a SIP phone number (e.g. Vonage) and your service doesn't work between 4pm and 2am, it might well be that 2:10am is the only time you can call to voice your displeasure.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246759 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:33:50 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246741 anon : Shoot the messenger.

We are NOT talking about taking out anger on a nameless nobody Bell technician.

No, we are talking about people that sign things. Sign their name to documents officially.

I don't care what cockamamy letters are behind Jason's name, he's a somebody, even if he isn't the ultimately most ideal somebody.
Yeah, I'd rather be ringing the home phone of someone called a CEO or a President. Because we all know "VP" also stands for "target" when it's important for them to be one.

I've got no problem putting VPs in my sights though.

Let them realize the company spin isn't good enough out here at the sharp end. The natives aren't buying it.

And the best part, a lot of us tend to be up late a lot (downloading you understand). Piece of cake to phone someone at 3:15 in the bloody AM and ask if their fridge is running?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246741 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:30:23 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246705 UT_CK :

said by Name :

said by UT_CK :

It is legal for the sake of managing a network to inspect the header information, but it is illegal to inspect the contents (the area between the packet header and trailer).

The whole point behind deep packet inspection is to look at the contents area to identify what application is in use. It has definitely not been established that inspecting packet contents is illegal as this is the exact method Bell, and the cable ISPs use to eliminate every protocol that they either can't identify or consider a threat to their business model.

You are correct ! It is not illegal to inspect packet contents. There is however a Privacy Law in Canada, which prohibits divulging such information, other than by court order or through ATIP or through lawful disclosure. Also the inspection of those packets should not be used to compromise the integrity or privacy of the content.

CK
{:(B)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246705 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:19:35 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246671 Stiffarm :

said by Name :

Bell's traffic filters are currently configured to disrupt any protocol not explicitly recognized as normal. If Bell has not loaded a specific rule allowing--for example--some esoteric online game you might want to play, traffic for that game will be limited to 30KB/s and ping times will be forced into the one second range.

What we have now is nothing more than a 530KB/s web browsing service.

Yes, that is how I understand what is going on here. Here is the big problem for me. In order to use an encrypted protocol I will have to use it on a standard port. Otherwise this will get throttled. One of the first things I always do is move a service away from its standard port unless it is absolutely necessary to keep it there. This is common security "best practice."

Now I'm being forced to decide between opening myself up for attack, or having a service that will be ostensibly broken due to throttling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246671 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 10:09:44 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246588 mazhurg : This "letter" as you call it is totally worhtless, both legally and contractually.

Legally as:
1) It does not address your business but is a generic form letter.
2) This letter (written as a letter of intent) is not something you send business clients but employees.
3) There is no listings, other than a generic header as to which companies are affected.

Contractually as:
1) It has no metric specifying equipment that is affected, which clauses the changes are actionned under, what contract is affected.

All in all, this is a form letter that an employer would send staff to advise them of a company policy change.

Are you sure you actually have a contract with BCE? Because if you do, then Bell is quite obviously ignoring that little fact and should be quite a cornerstone in any court battle.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246588 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:47:04 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246530 Name :

said by UT_CK :

It is legal for the sake of managing a network to inspect the header information, but it is illegal to inspect the contents (the area between the packet header and trailer).

The whole point behind deep packet inspection is to look at the contents area to identify what application is in use. It has definitely not been established that inspecting packet contents is illegal as this is the exact method Bell, and the cable ISPs use to eliminate every protocol that they either can't identify or consider a threat to their business model.

Bell's traffic filters are currently configured to disrupt any protocol not explicitly recognized as normal. If Bell has not loaded a specific rule allowing--for example--some esoteric online game you might want to play, traffic for that game will be limited to 30KB/s and ping times will be forced into the one second range.

What we have now is nothing more than a 530KB/s web browsing service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246530 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 09:26:29 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246403 UT_CK : Just a little clarification on Packet Inspection.

All packets contain information which is constructed using the OSI model.

The last layer is the Applicatiuon Layer. There are seven layers .. ranging from the Physical layer right up to the Application layer. In between are layers which identify the type of protocols used to achieve the delivery of the packet.

Each packet contains a packet header, the packet header can be inspected to determine the nature of the packet and which protocols are being used to deliver it.

It is legal for the sake of managing a network to inspect the header information, but it is illegal to inspect the contents (the area between the packet header and trailer).

When Bell is inspecting packets, it only inspects the header information and then applies it's traffic shaping based on what it finds in the header. The trailer is used to delimit the packet and differentiate from the next packet.... where a new header packet is inspected.

All of this inspection "slows" down the traffic... since it has to be analysed and acted upon.

Regards,
CK]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246403 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:28:25 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246374 UT_CK :

said by dbsanfte :

I loathe Bell. They're worse than hemorrhoids. This just proves it.

Hemroids/Hemorrhoids are good, they serve a purpose. It's the inflammed ones that are not too pleasant (ie... When they turn into a ring of fire). haha

CK
{:(B)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246374 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 08:11:38 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246343 anon : if bell has to identify it for you to be unshaped , then encrypt your stuff to LOOK like its somehting thats ok
think about a html page as it looks, encrypt your rars,traffic and make it look exactly like a website.

there problem solved, now go do it.
in the end bell et all would have to traffic shape EVERYTHING
and when they do that it would 100% be fraud for them to advert 7 megabit or anything as it would not be.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246343 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 07:55:44 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246215 matradley :

said by hidea :

Why did it affect my Star Craft gaming? :(
Playing it around 4AM and I caused a lag in the game.

I don't even have anything P2P turned on.

That's hard to say then - it could have been anything. If you started anything that was encrypted like a VPN tunnel, NNTP, Encrypted SMTP, perhaps you triggered the deep packet inspection. Otherwise, perhaps there are some router problems?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246215 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 06:08:30 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246141 hidea : Why did it affect my Star Craft gaming? :(
Playing it around 4AM and I caused a lag in the game.

I don't even have anything P2P turned on. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246141 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 05:00:24 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246126 liamoforange : Let me see if I am understanding the situation:

1. Bell owns a 20 lane highway

2. Bell leases TSI 6 lanes of said highway

3. TSI pays Bell for 6 lanes at 100km/h

4. Bell then states TSI's customers must only drive 4 cylinder car, in 4 lanes of said highway, at 90km/h during rush hour, even though they have bought access to 6 lanes.

5. TSI customers stay in their 6 paid for lanes but Bell says they are slowing down all the rush hour traffic

6. Bell is blaming this rush hour situation on "criminal behaviour"

7. The CBC is engaged in said "criminal behaviour"

8. TSI's contract lawyers didn't see this coming

9. TSI's contract lawyers still are TSI's contract lawyers

10. TSI's contract lawyers are the ones we are counting on to get us out of this situation

Cheers!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246126 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:40:13 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246119 nyt :

said by Taylortbb :

Unfortunately encryption doesn't work, Bell throttles anything they can't identify..

Has anyone tried BT over ssh? That should work unless they throttle ssh as well, but it requires you to have a shell.
or http-tunnel.com, it looks nice.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246119 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 04:29:14 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246075 Taylortbb :

said by nyt :

»www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Av···_shaping
maybe it has been mentionned already, but there is way too many messages on the issue to read them all!

Unfortunately encryption doesn't work, Bell throttles anything they can't identify.

funchords: No one knows the hardware for sure, but about 95% it's Ellacoya hardware. Bell has an investment in the company.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246075 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:45:42 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246061 nyt : »www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Av···_shaping
maybe it has been mentionned already, but there is way too many messages on the issue to read them all!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246061 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:32:35 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246018 funchords :

said by megahuts :

And: How do you look at a packet's mapping?

I think you have to look at the packet itself.
Therefore Bell looks at the packet and checks (a portion of) the content.

If they're using Packet Mapping, then no, they don't need to inspect anything except for the IP portion of the header (the outside of the envelopes) -- which is appropriate for them to see.

But clearly they're using DPI to determine protocols like Remote Desktop Protocol, PPTP, SSH, etc.. So I'd just ignore the words "Packet Mapping." They've already provided you with better ammunition.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246018 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:07:04 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246015 nyt : A few questions:
how much bandwidth TSI is saving now that throttling is in place? The saving is likely to be higher than what Bell is seeing on the retail size given that they stopped unlimited a while ago.
are't Bell business GAS users not throttled? Wholesalers should have the ability to sell non throttled GAS if it is the case (or force Bell to apply the same to all GAS as they pretend to be doing).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20246015 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 03:05:08 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245975 funchords : "...identifies the packet mapping..." sounds like Arbor equipment. Does anyone know for sure what equipment or technology they are using ...

1. For the DPI part
2. For the throttling part

Also "...identifies the packet mapping..." does not explain any VPN slow-down. Packet mapping is a re-application of DDOS detection technology. VPN should look like a single unicast pipe.
--
Robb Topolski -= funchords.com =- Hillsboro, Oregon
FCC Public Hearing on the Future of the Internet - Thursday, April 17th - Stanford Univ., Calif.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245975 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:50:51 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245945 Guspaz : Short-term, sure. But what about lost business?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245945 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:31:26 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245938 jpabboud :

said by Name :

Is it known where Bell has installed their traffic filters?

Are they installed between the ISP aggregation point and the ISP or somewhere closer to the customer?

Probably right after the BAS, before getting to the aggregation point.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245938 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:29:01 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245920 Name :

said by jfmezei :

HSA is also aggregated and fed to the ISP on the GigE lines.

Is it known where Bell has installed their traffic filters?

Are they installed between the ISP aggregation point and the ISP or somewhere closer to the customer?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245920 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:18:39 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245906 jpabboud :

said by R0CKY :

Don't missenterpret the financial benefits. Both TSI and Bell will gain financially on the bottom line... that doesn't however make it right, and as you are pointing out, this isn't bandwidth/transit.

Why not negotiate for a broader deployment of HSA ? Is there any room to lower pricing... I know the setup fees are set in stone but what about the monthly fee?

I've got a few people including myself looking seriously at HSA.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245906 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:10:48 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245898 Taylortbb :

said by derekm :

said by TSI Marc :

derekm,

It doesn't work that way. We would have to build a vpn network inside of the tunnel that Bell feeds to us since their equipment is in the middle.

The MTU on each packet would be way down, it causes many problems, it would be a massive pain to manage.

It's not at all a simple thing to setup on a large scale.

Hi Marc,

Thank you for your response.

I don't understand what your are saying. Mppe is *part of ppp framing*, and not an external protocol.

I think the fact that it is at the PPP level is what's causing the problem. The Bell BAS has to be able to read the information to see which ISP to route it to, and I don't think they're about to support encrypted PPP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245898 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:08:20 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245892 anon :

but does not monitor, track or access the data of your customers...

somehow when i read this part i saw an image of two parents promising a pony for their daughter when they forgot his/her birthday.

how they **** do we trust these ********* when they just decided to up and away w/ our P2P speeds? i need to move to Europe or something.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245892 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 02:05:41 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245881 Turbinator : We wouldn't have to much angst with the throttling issue, if they would throttle our prices respectively.
You can not expect anyone to pay for 1st rate service, but receive 2nd rate quality.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245881 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:58:50 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245867 R0CKY :

said by nydwarf1 :

Has this guy lost his mind? I love how companies use doublespeak to make it seem like they are doing something to benefit everyone when it's just to benefit them alone. Bell get your hands off our bandwidth!

Don't missenterpret the financial benefits. Both TSI and Bell will gain financially on the bottom line... that doesn't however make it right, and as you are pointing out, this isn't bandwidth/transit.
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245867 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:54:07 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245866 jpabboud :

said by jfmezei :

"dedicated" is perhaps not accurate. It is a permanent virtual circuit. It doesn't mean that the path is dedicated. HSA is also aggregated and fed to the ISP on the GigE lines.

Same as a T1/Ethernet connections, they're all aggregated and yes you're right it isn't dedicated as in the ISP has his own link going to the DSLAM but you get the idea. It sure is more dedicated than a PPPoE connection. Each HSA user is on a PVC of its own (correct me if I'm wrong) where PPPoE users share the same.

said by jfmezei :

In terms of pricing, this is artificial price set by Bell to push people to that pesky PPPoE thing. Telus functions primarily in HSA mode for its customers and it doesn't cost it so much since it got software to make reassigning customers from one ISP to another mush easier. Bell requires a half dozen civil servants to push 632 paper forms in triplicate before it can be done.

It isn't the same when it comes to the provider though, big huge difference provisioning a PPPoE dsl and HSA. Bell sends a tech to install HSA and the service levels are different. You get what you pay for...

said by jfmezei :

With 3 year contract (yes, ISPs have contracts with Bell), HSA is roughly $40 a month instead of $20. But there are circuit setup costs of about $200 of I remember. ( Tarif 5420)

I know when I met with Bell (long story was going to jump in the DSL biz) pricing was way higher than that for HSA. Even at $40 on a 3 yr contract, it's still twice as much.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245866 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:54:01 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245848 anon : I realize that vpn and other encrypted traffic are known to be throttled right now (at least for some customers), but what about setting up a good ole fashioned proxy server?

I could be wrong, but I don't think that is encrypted and you could set it up to only acknowledge ip's from your network or usernames and passwords from your network.
Some programs still support proxy and there is a program out there that is free that works transparently on the clients machine. I forget the name but you load the program and then tell that program to load the desired program. All winsock communications are captured and sent via the proxy server.

Only thing is, you would need a few machines to satisfy your client size (21000 clients, 64xxx available ports per ip, etc...)

I know this shaping thing will take some time, and although I have somehow been temporary released from the clutch of throttling, but I believe this might be a non-shaped traffic solution in the meantime (April 7th is coming close pretty fast).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245848 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:46:04 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245842 anon : Has this guy lost his mind? I love how companies use doublespeak to make it seem like they are doing something to benefit everyone when it's just to benefit them alone. Bell get your hands off our bandwidth!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245842 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:42:49 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245835 jfmezei : >HSA is dedicated between dslam and provider, I don't see it
>getting filtered. The price tag actually gives you an idea on
>how much a fully dedicated port with dedicated bandwidth >would cost.

"dedicated" is perhaps not accurate. It is a permanent virtual circuit. It doesn't mean that the path is dedicated. HSA is also aggregated and fed to the ISP on the GigE lines.

In terms of pricing, this is artificial price set by Bell to push people to that pesky PPPoE thing. Telus functions primarily in HSA mode for its customers and it doesn't cost it so much since it got software to make reassigning customers from one ISP to another mush easier. Bell requires a half dozen civil servants to push 632 paper forms in triplicate before it can be done.

With 3 year contract (yes, ISPs have contracts with Bell), HSA is roughly $40 a month instead of $20. But there are circuit setup costs of about $200 of I remember. ( Tarif 5420)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245835 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:40:09 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245824 jfmezei : >There are rumors that Bell has architecture their traffic
>filter such that it can't be disabled for individual users or
>billing rate classes.

I have not checked the Sandvine specs. But the Ellacoya boxes pride themselves in being able to do passive requests to DHCP or RADIUS servers to get information on each subscriber and apply different thrittling profile depending on the radius information.

They can also collect personal information, quantity of data on a per application/per user. There are serious pruvacy implications on this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245824 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:36:04 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245742 jpabboud :

said by Name :

@TSI Marc:

What's the network path between a HSA customer and your systems? Does the traffic get unwrapped into something that Bell could feed to a traffic filter or do you send/receive raw ATM frames?

(this could provide some leads as to if HSA is filtered)

HSA is dedicated between dslam and provider, I don't see it getting filtered. The price tag actually gives you an idea on how much a fully dedicated port with dedicated bandwidth would cost. I know it has to do with service level agreements also but Bell probably will not throttle a $75-90 per mo DSL port (in a Residential HSA's case).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245742 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:09:29 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245736 mazhurg :

said by Name :

said by jpabboud :

I think Bell's opening the door to a higher priced, unfiltered DSL port that would be more expansive and closer to reality in terms of todays bandwidth usage.

There are rumors that Bell has architecture their traffic filter such that it can't be disabled for individual users or billing rate classes. If this is true, then Bell couldn't offer unfiltered service at a higher price even if they wanted to.

Is this like when MS was arguing that they could not uncouple IE from windows because they are too "intertwined"?

AH! :uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245736 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:07:04 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245723 Name :

said by jpabboud :

I think Bell's opening the door to a higher priced, unfiltered DSL port that would be more expansive and closer to reality in terms of todays bandwidth usage.

There are rumors that Bell has architecture their traffic filter such that it can't be disabled for individual users or billing rate classes. If this is true, then Bell couldn't offer unfiltered service at a higher price even if they wanted to.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245723 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:03:41 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245710 Name : @TSI Marc:

What's the network path between a HSA customer and your systems? Does the traffic get unwrapped into something that Bell could feed to a traffic filter or do you send/receive raw ATM frames?

(this could provide some leads as to if HSA is filtered)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245710 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 01:00:29 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245648 HiVolt :

said by jfmezei :

2- Remember that GAS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INTERNET.
It a a raw data service that transports packets from a end user at whatever speed his DSL sync is at to the ISP.

The CRTC does not regulate the internet. But it regulates GAS. So GAS *cannot* be the internet.

Excellent point JF...
--
GOLF LEAFS GOLF!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245648 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:47:16 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245631 jpabboud :

said by Arbalister :

What they are affecting is the 'last mile' bandwidth - the route through the Bell ATM cloud that links the end user to their ISP. Really, honestly, they're not filtering the internet at all. They are filtering what people bring in from the internet, onto Bells private network. This is what's so wrong about it - companies like TSI have leased specific amounts of bandwidth in that cloud.

I don't think so, I think the 20 some dollars per user charge barely covers the DSLAM port and some of the transport for that user. Problem is Bell probably failed to predict the average bandwidth per user, or terribly underestimated the per user bandwidth growth in this short timespan.

I think Bell's opening the door to a higher priced, unfiltered DSL port that would be more expansive and closer to reality in terms of todays bandwidth usage.

The question is now, are ISP's willing to pay more than the CRTC regulated 20 some dollars per DSL port to provide a different "unfiltered" service? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245631 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:42:52 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245626 Arbalister :

said by jfmezei :

2- Remember that GAS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE INTERNET.
It a a raw data service that transports packets from a end user at whatever speed his DSL sync is at to the ISP.

The CRTC does not regulate the internet. But it regulates GAS. So GAS *cannot* be the internet.

This is a very valid point and one that the assorted news agencies haven't really picked up on yet.

Our beef isn't with Bell Sympatico at all. It's with Bell Nexxia. Nexxia is *not* an ISP. ISP's are *NOT* (well...sympatico is...or was, perhaps they don't have to now) throttling. Nexxia is a wholesaler of infrastructure that is subject to tariff and CRTC regulation. Nexxia is the monopoly holder of last mile highspeed connectivity on the phone lines. Any claims that they are doing this for 'fair use' are bogus because the affected companies have leased the use of the affected bandwidth. It's not up to Nexxia to police it, just to deliver the service level that they are paid to deliver.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245626 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 00:40:59 EDT http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20245624 derekm :

said by TSI Marc :

derekm,

It doesn't work that way. We would have to build a vpn network inside of the tunnel that Bell feeds to us since their equipment is in the middle.

The MTU on each packet would be way down, it causes many problems, it would be a massive pain to manage.

It's not at all a simple thing to setup on a large scale.

Hi Marc,

Thank you for your response.

I don't understand what your are saying. Mppe is *part of ppp framing*, and not an external protocol.

It is not a VPN tunnel, which I understand is difficult to implement.

The encryption/decryption is done at the PPP access concentrator as part of the PPP framing process.

I could be mistaken, but it is my understanding that your equipment terminates the PPP connection.

»www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3078.txt

Check out section 3, pp3:
"The maximum length of the MPPE datagram transmitted over a PPP link is the same as the maximum length of the information field of a PPP encapsulated packet."

An then section 3.1, Packet Format:
I see 4 bytes of overhead, on that packet. Assuming that we need to keep the other bytes of overhead we will have a reduced MTU of 1488, vs 1492. I don't think the effects are as exaggerated as you think.

I would be glad to help test the setup... I may be able to give you pointers on how to set up your RADIUS server