Topic 'Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people' in forum 'TekSavvy' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20249254 en Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:29:33 EDT Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:29:33 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20303016 said by Stewy:

Help me understand this.

On point number 3, who is judging "undesirable" content?
Bell, and Bell alone.

On point number 4, if you were to replace all P2P with the exact same amount of HTTP traffic. Would that have the exact same impact on "Bell's core network" as they put it.

In other words is P2P the same to manage as an HTTP packet?
Yes and no, but mostly yes. The asymmetric part of ADSL service means that P2P uses much more upstream bandwidth than your average HTTP session. HTTP also tends to be a lot more bursty, in that it's not a continuous transfer (although this assumption is disappearing with things like YouTube).

That said, I don't think the asymmetry is much of an excuse for Bell. What really matters to them is bandwidth and, once you get to their core network, it doesn't matter which direction the data is going, just the overall volume. At least, AFAIK.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20303016 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:19:43 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302575 No:If you are stuck so far from the CO in the first place you may as well have stayed on dial-up...But it has often been reported by users that Sympatico will upsell you on a faster connection while knowing ahead of time your line can't take it.
Yes:Refer to first statement

PS:If the german autobahns were stuck at 30Km/H 10 hours everyday it would cripple or seriously threaten their economy(remember that goods and people still have to travel)
and disrupt other EU countries' economies.
I think that the german people would demand explanations and heads would roll.Remember that europeans have a more vocal and active way of demonstrating their displeasure with their goverments and organizations that abuse their trust.
P.P.S:The buffet analogy would stand only if Bell was creating the different items of food (Internet content) and their was a Hard limit on a specific item or file.Even if the items of food refered to the different protocols the buffet analogy can not stand...Have they run out of VPN?

The buffet analogy only stands if the restaurant has pre-sold the item to hundreds of people and only allows a few at time to get in while everyone else waits in line.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302575 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:02:07 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302464 said by Pegasys66:

Meaning no limit in speeds or quantity.Suppose the network gets so congested that everyone is getting only 30kB/s. Would that violate "no limit"? How?

Suppose you live so far from a CO that all you can achieve under ideal conditions is 30kB/s. Would that violate "no limit"? How?

Suppose Bell has to throttle traffic to 30kB/s during certain periods (as they are now doing) in order to distribute their GAS bandwidth equitably (as they now claim.) Would that violate "no limit"? How?

P.S. Suppose you drive on a German autobahn that has no speed limit when you encounter heavy traffic and everyone has to slow down to 30km/hr. Has the German government lied to you? How?

[Again, do not shoot me. Just playing "devil's advocate."]

P.P.S. An even better analogy. You are at an all-you-can eat buffet restaurant. It is late at night and they are running low on roast beef. You step up to the buffet for seconds (or thirds, etc.) of roast beef. The waiter says, "Sorry. No more roast beef for you. We have to save what little is left for the patrons who have not had any. Feel free to eat as much of our other food as you can." Would that violate "all-you-can-eat"? How?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302464 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:43:53 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302369 "No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7"

This statement does not qualify or put any restrictions on the "No Limit" part now does it?

Meaning no limit in speeds or quantity...Point me to a statement to the contrary please.. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302369 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:30:55 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302304 said by R0CKY:

said by theninjasqua:
said by Pegasys66:

»www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think
Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site.
Rest assured this has already been PDFd...If you are referring to "No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7" Bell's lawyers can argue that throttling does not change that. Your customers remain free to surf and download as much as they can 24x7. And of course, unless similar language appears in the CRTC Tariff and/or the contract you have with Bell, what they say on their website is not legally binding.

[Do not shoot me. Just playing "devil's advocate."]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302304 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:20:23 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302195
"WEB SITE TERMS AND CONDITIONS"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302195 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:58:47 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302151
I understand that teksavvy and other independent ISPs rent capacity on Bell's 'core network' to bring data from the COs to their own routers in Toronto. I remember Rocky (or someone) mentioning that they would love to use another carrier for this step, but cannot.

I was just wondering about the reason for this. Is it:

a) because Bell won't allow it (i.e. installing the necessary equipment in the CO)

b) there is no-one else who can offer that much bandwidth between the COs and 151 front street

c) the necessary equipment investment and alternative bandwidth costs are simply too high to even consider

or

d) some other 4th thing]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302151 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:49:58 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302118 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302118 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:44:52 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302001 www.bell.ca/support/PrsCSrvGnl_W···rms.page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20302001 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:24:25 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301882 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301882 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:07:47 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301877 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301877 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:06:58 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301845 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301845 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:01:32 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301735
"No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7"

From the PDF:

"Your benefit – Consistent performance coupled with minimal service degradation improves your customers’ experience – and
their perception of your services."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301735 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:41:25 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301700 said by theninjasqua:

said by Pegasys66:

»www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think
Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site.
Rest assured this has already been PDFd...
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301700 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:34:30 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301685 said by Stewy:

Help me understand this.BELL has arrogated unto itself the determination of "undesirable". But when you speak of "content", it is not the end payload, (the actual bytes of the file or page), but the 'format' of the data within the packet. Worse, it seems that Bell is operating on a 'negative' test - if the 'format' is NOT one they recognize as "valid" (HTTP, FTP etc), then they "throttle" on the assumption that it is "undesirable". This causes all sorts of "collateral damage".

A packet is a packet is a packet. P2P should really be called MP2MP (Multiple Peers to Multiple Peers) in that the various 'formats' support a DISTRIBUTED data base where each peer is sending to many peers (if 'keeping their end of the bargain') at least as much data as they are receiving from many peers who are not necessarily the same. This conflicts with the nature of ADSL (the "A" being "asymmetric" in that the ratio of download capacity to upload capacity is not 1:1). Because the "tracking" requirements of a DISTRIBUTED data base will entail a slight additional overhead in comparison to a CENTRALIZED data base (such as Usenet where one peer is sending to many using NNTP), the total traffic will be a bit higher, but this is a factor of the data base type, not the 'format' used to transmit the data. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301685 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:32:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301611 said by Pegasys66:

»www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think
Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site.
--

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301611 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:17:05 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301595 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301595 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:14:40 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301477 --
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301477 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:52:48 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301454 www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301454 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:46:52 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301388
On point number 3, who is judging "undesirable" content?

On point number 4, if you were to replace all P2P with the exact same amount of HTTP traffic. Would that have the exact same impact on "Bell's core network" as they put it.

In other words is P2P the same to manage as an HTTP packet?

It's as if Bell is saying that yes we can lease you virtual tunnels but you can only use them at %10 capacity in order for our "core network" to run.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20301388 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:32:03 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20289035 said by TobiasFunke:

I don't want to make any obviously false or simply overzealous claims.
Why not? Bell will.. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20289035 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:23:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20288063
My goal with this diagram is to present the issue without overstating the facts. This is why I backed away from some of the weaker arguments I made earlier that were based on speculation (e.g., that Bell's move is an anti-competitive attempt to shore up Sympatico). It's also why I'm reluctant to downplay Bell Nexxia's role too much -- the fact that Nexxia provides such a large chunk of TSI's infrastructure is the reason we have this mess in the first place.

Obviously, everyone can draw their own conclusions, but I don't want to make any obviously false or simply overzealous claims.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20288063 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:09:49 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20287614 Great diagrams but I have two small points to make.

According to the GAS tariff, Bell is supposed to supply an unthrottled link from the residential/business user to Teksavvy's 151 Front St. presence (usually numbered as point '4' in your diagrams).

So when you do a before/after diagram I think you need to add the following words on the 'Before' diagram:

'This connection is unthrottled and not inspected as per CRTC Tariff #xxxxx

On the 'After' diagram our need to add text which conveys that fact that Bell is acting illegally, eg. "In violation of CRTC tariff #xxx, Bell is reducing the speed of the connections by up to 90% of the tariffed speed required and illegally reading data between points 1 and 4."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20287614 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:23:00 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20287141 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20287141 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:45:02 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286982
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286982 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:08:59 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286798 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286798 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 10:26:19 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286782 said by TobiasFunke:

I think this is a truer picture of what's going on and it avoids the whole Sympatico issue altogether, focusing instead on what Bell is doing that is contrary to the letter and/or spirit of the GAS tariff (and net neutrality more generally).Two thoughts:

Bell will DENY that they are inspecting the CONTENT. (They'll interpret "CONTENT" as the clear data.) Better to describe it as "opening your message" (then Bell can try to explain that they're looking at the shape of the letter and the ink that is used, not the words).

You're buying into Bell's "framing" of the situation. They're not "inspecting", they're WIRE-TAPPING WITHOUT A WARRANT. P2P itself is no more "abusive" than HTTP. Better to say "any messages Bell doesn't like". After "protect its core network" put in brackets "(increase profitability)" and put quotes around "protect".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286782 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 10:21:20 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286577
What strikes me is that the tunnel must be so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Sympatico has in the neighbourhood of 2 million high speed subscribers according to the latest annual report. TekSavvy claims about 50,000 all told and CAIP claims to represent 100,000. Bell's core network would have capacity for all the other things it's being used for as well. It'll be interesting to see some hard numbers from Bell to support their claim of congestion.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20286577 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:09:13 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20285844
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20285844 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:53:43 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20277602
Bell is stealing from its customers.

Questions?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20277602 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:56:29 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20277230 "dumb it down".
90% of the population (made up number) has no idea how this magical 'series of tubes' we call 'the internet' works. Make it as simple and to the point as possible, and people may understand the issue.

1) As a customer, with TS, you are using the phone line to your house, owned by Bell. TS pays to lease this line.
2) your data then moves over the phone line and bell's DSL equipment, where the signal is transferred to TS through a high-bandwidth link, paid for by TS based on a set bandwidth amount.
3) Bell has recently throttled this link, essentially not providing the service TS has paid for.
4) From there, TS has their own links to the internet, separate from Bell Sympatico customers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20277230 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:40:55 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20276006
If you've ever saturated your upstream data rate, you'll know exactly how effective this can be at limiting downstream data rates.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20276006 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:52:18 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20275386 said by TobiasFunke:

One thing I'm still not entirely clear on is whether TekSavvy pays Bell for transit over their core network. I wish someone from TSI could shed some light on this. Did you forget we're talking about Bell? We, the common man, send one ping of data across anything they can bill for, they do. :-)

Yes, TSI pays for transit over the core. Bell's DSL wholesale arrangement is that the indie ISP pays all the costs involved with getting a packet from the enduser premises to a specified point of interconnect. That's 151 front. Once it gets to the TSI "premises" they can do whatever they want with it - which in this case is fire it to the net via either cogent, peer1, or whomever.

Point is...when I buy a DSL circuit from Bell, I'm paying per customer to get a direct link through bell's internal net, from the customer to my servers. And I'm paying a big per month fee for the backhaul.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20275386 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:54:22 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20275376
(i) if you want upstream control then you bring in a device like a router as soon as possible. This would be in-line with Tobias' comment that they have BRAS in all COs.

(ii) if Bell really has a congested network then you don't throw away traffic at the exit of your network - then it's too late and pretty useless as packets made their way through already. You throw away as soon as possible

(iii) not all P2P is TCP, e.g. newer version use UDP as well

(iv) if Bell can handle traffic or not depends on many factors, including geographical distribution. Not a problem of the pipe to TSI and others.

(v) I don't mint if the ISP "can" traffic shape -Bell would not control the game but depend on the ISP. Very likely ... .

Regards, Marc]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20275376 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:51:18 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20275280 said by mbind:

Hello Tobias,

I don't know the Bell network in detail but some generic thoughts:

the problem shouldn't be the 800kbit/s upstream, likely the large number of ADSL lines with a multi-Mbit/s _downstream_ speed is overwhelming the network.
Regards, Marc
The downstream speed is *limited* by how many pipes ISP/TSI has to connect to Bell's network. Furthermore, the ISP can do traffic shaping before it reaches Bell's network. If Bell cannot handle the traffic, they should tell the ISP when they are ordering the pipes.

The 800kbps upstream traffic is unbounded as there are no QoS/routers going upstream. The only way traffic control is when TCP packets get tossed out after when they hit the exit pipe to ISP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20275280 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:33:40 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20274184
I don't know the Bell network in detail but some generic thoughts:

the problem shouldn't be the 800kbit/s upstream, likely the large number of ADSL lines with a multi-Mbit/s _downstream_ speed is overwhelming the network. Saying this I doubt that the focus of the throttling is upstream but think it is downstream. Upstream throttling would be done as close to the copper wire as possible. Throttling downstream though would happen as close as possible to the entry point of the IP or L2TP traffic, i.e. the exchange in Toronto (and isn't there one in Montreal?).In this case your diagram would be fine regarding the position of the throttle box, IMHO.

Regards, Marc]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20274184 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:00:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20274054
One thing I'm still not entirely clear on is whether TekSavvy pays Bell for transit over their core network. I wish someone from TSI could shed some light on this. I realize they pay for the DSL connect, and they pay for the 1 Gbps links at 151 Front, but AFAICT, TSI doesn't pay anything specifically for the tunnelled traffic on Bell's core network.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20274054 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:28:06 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20274026
As I understand it, Teksavvy (and other ISPs) pay for carriage from the BRAS to their connection. However, if the BRAS is not at the same location as the DSL infrastructure in every CO, then there may be places where Bell has to carry the DSL-to-BRAS traffic - possible over a considerable distance - but can't bill it back to anyone.

It is *also* possible that although the above network architecture is correct, Teksavvy is actually paying for carriage from the DSL infrastructure to their connection point. In such a case, all the bandwidth between the DSL and the BRAS should be covered by the tarrifs, with the BRAS appearing as a complex router to separate the traffic according to the ISP that the DSL is signed on to.

Can anyone clarify any of this so that the diagrams can be as accurate as possible?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20274026 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:22:28 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20270420
I have done a little bit of research and realized that my diagrams are unfortunately more than a little inaccurate. It appears that I was working from the false impression that Bell's traffic-shaping is taking place at 151 Front - whereas in reality it is much more distributed... basically at every CO, which makes a lot of sense if you think about how it is being rolled out. Don't know why it didn't occur to me sooner.

As much as I want a positive outcome for TSI and us users, I don't like the idea of misrepresenting the situation, so I'd ask that you refrain from spreading my diagrams around until I get the chance to update them.

Also, I've discovered Bell's problem seems to be much more fundamental than I'd originally thought. Specifically, Bell does not have just a Sympatico problem, they believe they have a core network problem and they are or will be facing chronic core network congestion unless they can do something about it. Keep in mind that it's not just our Internet that runs over the core, but also a very large chunk of the national voice network and other services.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20270420 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:32:23 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20260529
LoL!

I can't help but wonder - while you are doing this in front of your computer, if you are wearing your blue paint, just in case!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20260529 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:10:34 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20260415 said by MindMazeII:

Bell is going to lose their Bronze hahaha very fast.

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LOL it's gone now. And it's not over yet, the HMCS Sympatico is taking on water fast :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20260415 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:52:43 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20257119 --

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20257119 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:04:54 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20257085
There are several issues here. Traffic shaping, retail customer service denial and wholesale customer service denial.(IMHO, throttling is too technical and has no legal connotation.) Bell is not practicing traffic shaping (as they like to imply) but service denial. Furthermore, the service denial implementation is based on their perceived, and probably inaccurate, analysis of customer data.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20257085 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:01:15 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20256862
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20256862 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:22:11 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255681
"Bell Nexxia" perhaps? Although I understand Nexxia doesn't exist anymore.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255681 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:57:01 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255240
As for the to/from stuff, my understanding is that it's a little bit of both that Bell does. In the case of Bittorrent, throttling user uploads actually has the effect of decreasing download speeds. That said, it appears that Bell's system just applies a blanket cap once it detects P2P (it may not even be that sophisticated!), but I'm not sure how to explain that in the limited space that's available.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255240 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:12:57 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255194
*wow* are you creating graphs for a living? Perfect style :-)

But one question: is Bell throttling traffic _to_ TekSavvy/Peer1 or _from_ ?
Taking into account that the upload speed is physically only around 800kbit/s anyway I assume they throttle the download direction?

In this case Bell could easily dismiss this diagram as wrong because of the description in point "4".

Regards, Marc]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255194 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:03:14 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255187
I also need to get some real-life work done in the next little while, so if anyone would like to take this up and make additional changes, please PM me and I can send the OmniGraffle source files (or Visio if you prefer). That said, I'll still check in and I can make minor changes if need be.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255187 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:01:21 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255006 As you can clearly see from this illustration, Bell Canada / Sympatico provides the greatest portion of the entire network and is responsible for providing and maintaining the service of all our resellers, on top of the million + Sympatico customers. Teksavvy, (and all of our other resellers) provide only a small portion of the vital network, and therefore do not have the same great responsibilities & concerns that we at Bell Canada have. This is why we are working pro-actively to protect the integrity of Internet services, not just for those subscribing directly to Bell Sympatico, but for all Canadians.

If I was working for Bell, that is how I would use these illustrations. I think there is danger in laying out any of this in a way that can be perverted to bolster Bell's claims. We've all seen the comments at the Globe & far too many of those believe that Bell is the protector of the public good.

If you want to use an illustration like this for PR purposes you need to target it directly at your audience & focus the message. So far, this seems to be targeted for us - for people who are already pro-TSI, but lack the network knowledge to be able to picture the breakdown properly. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20255006 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:25:58 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20254912 said by DabberDan:

What exactly is a BRAS? How does it relate to the 5Mbps I'm supposed to get?
BRAS: Broadband Remote Access Server

Others can correct me if I am wrong, but this equipment is found at every CO.....the closer to the CO you are (this is not neccessarily physical closeness, but close in phone line length) the better your speeds should be...

By the way, I edited one of the previously posted illustrations a bit (although the original author could may want tomake it look better)

It may also be worth pointing that the part in blue background here, is the Network operated by Bell, which has been put together via the contributions of both Bell Phone and Sympatico users and third party users as well as government subsidies
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Illustrating-the-network-and-throttling-for-nontech-people-20254912 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:08:27 EDT