Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people in TekSavvy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20249402 en Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:15:22 EDT Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:15:22 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20303016 TobiasFunke :
said by Stewy See Profile :

Help me understand this.

On point number 3, who is judging "undesirable" content?
Bell, and Bell alone.

On point number 4, if you were to replace all P2P with the exact same amount of HTTP traffic. Would that have the exact same impact on "Bell's core network" as they put it.

In other words is P2P the same to manage as an HTTP packet?
Yes and no, but mostly yes. The asymmetric part of ADSL service means that P2P uses much more upstream bandwidth than your average HTTP session. HTTP also tends to be a lot more bursty, in that it's not a continuous transfer (although this assumption is disappearing with things like YouTube).

That said, I don't think the asymmetry is much of an excuse for Bell. What really matters to them is bandwidth and, once you get to their core network, it doesn't matter which direction the data is going, just the overall volume. At least, AFAIK.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20303016 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 14:19:43 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302575 Pegasys66 : Yes:If they failed to maintain their network in order to honor theit agreement and advertisement.It ends up being false advertisement.
No:If you are stuck so far from the CO in the first place you may as well have stayed on dial-up...But it has often been reported by users that Sympatico will upsell you on a faster connection while knowing ahead of time your line can't take it.
Yes:Refer to first statement

PS:If the german autobahns were stuck at 30Km/H 10 hours everyday it would cripple or seriously threaten their economy(remember that goods and people still have to travel)
and disrupt other EU countries' economies.
I think that the german people would demand explanations and heads would roll.Remember that europeans have a more vocal and active way of demonstrating their displeasure with their goverments and organizations that abuse their trust.
P.P.S:The buffet analogy would stand only if Bell was creating the different items of food (Internet content) and their was a Hard limit on a specific item or file.Even if the items of food refered to the different protocols the buffet analogy can not stand...Have they run out of VPN?

The buffet analogy only stands if the restaurant has pre-sold the item to hundreds of people and only allows a few at time to get in while everyone else waits in line.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302575 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 13:02:07 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302464 nanook :
said by Pegasys66 See Profile :

Meaning no limit in speeds or quantity.
Suppose the network gets so congested that everyone is getting only 30kB/s. Would that violate "no limit"? How?

Suppose you live so far from a CO that all you can achieve under ideal conditions is 30kB/s. Would that violate "no limit"? How?

Suppose Bell has to throttle traffic to 30kB/s during certain periods (as they are now doing) in order to distribute their GAS bandwidth equitably (as they now claim.) Would that violate "no limit"? How?

P.S. Suppose you drive on a German autobahn that has no speed limit when you encounter heavy traffic and everyone has to slow down to 30km/hr. Has the German government lied to you? How?

[Again, do not shoot me. Just playing "devil's advocate."]

P.P.S. An even better analogy. You are at an all-you-can eat buffet restaurant. It is late at night and they are running low on roast beef. You step up to the buffet for seconds (or thirds, etc.) of roast beef. The waiter says, "Sorry. No more roast beef for you. We have to save what little is left for the patrons who have not had any. Feel free to eat as much of our other food as you can." Would that violate "all-you-can-eat"? How?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302464 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:43:53 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302369 Pegasys66 : Pow pow!!!LOL
"No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7"

This statement does not qualify or put any restrictions on the "No Limit" part now does it?

Meaning no limit in speeds or quantity...Point me to a statement to the contrary please.. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302369 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:30:55 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302304 nanook :
said by R0CKY See Profile :

said by theninjasqua See Profile :
said by Pegasys66 See Profile :

»www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think
Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site.
Rest assured this has already been PDFd...
If you are referring to "No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7" Bell's lawyers can argue that throttling does not change that. Your customers remain free to surf and download as much as they can 24x7. And of course, unless similar language appears in the CRTC Tariff and/or the contract you have with Bell, what they say on their website is not legally binding.

[Do not shoot me. Just playing "devil's advocate."]]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302304 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 12:20:23 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302195 Pegasys66 : However,it appears that that url is the entry to their website and the agreement refers to the website alone...

"WEB SITE TERMS AND CONDITIONS"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302195 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:58:47 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302151 anon : I think those pics are actually quite informative. I have one recurring question, though.

I understand that teksavvy and other independent ISPs rent capacity on Bell's 'core network' to bring data from the COs to their own routers in Toronto. I remember Rocky (or someone) mentioning that they would love to use another carrier for this step, but cannot.

I was just wondering about the reason for this. Is it:

a) because Bell won't allow it (i.e. installing the necessary equipment in the CO)

b) there is no-one else who can offer that much bandwidth between the COs and 151 front street

c) the necessary equipment investment and alternative bandwidth costs are simply too high to even consider

or

d) some other 4th thing]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302151 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:49:58 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302118 avernar : Those terms never came up before I read the other page and I never had to hit an "Agree" button. Not worth the bits they're printed on...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302118 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:44:52 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302001 anon : ...however: »www.bell.ca/support/PrsCSrvGnl_W···rms.page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20302001 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:24:25 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301882 Pegasys66 : Done for each tab already]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301882 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:07:47 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301877 avernar : The PDF is not the same as the web page so grabbing a copy of the web page is still a good idea.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301877 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:06:58 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301845 Pegasys66 : There is a PDF available for download]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301845 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 11:01:32 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301735 avernar : From the web page:

"No limit on data transfer so that your customers can surf and download 24x7"

From the PDF:

"Your benefit – Consistent performance coupled with minimal service degradation improves your customers’ experience – and
their perception of your services."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301735 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:41:25 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301700 R0CKY :
said by theninjasqua See Profile :

said by Pegasys66 See Profile :

»www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think
Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site.
Rest assured this has already been PDFd...
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301700 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:34:30 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301685 anon :
said by Stewy See Profile :

Help me understand this.
BELL has arrogated unto itself the determination of "undesirable". But when you speak of "content", it is not the end payload, (the actual bytes of the file or page), but the 'format' of the data within the packet. Worse, it seems that Bell is operating on a 'negative' test - if the 'format' is NOT one they recognize as "valid" (HTTP, FTP etc), then they "throttle" on the assumption that it is "undesirable". This causes all sorts of "collateral damage".

A packet is a packet is a packet. P2P should really be called MP2MP (Multiple Peers to Multiple Peers) in that the various 'formats' support a DISTRIBUTED data base where each peer is sending to many peers (if 'keeping their end of the bargain') at least as much data as they are receiving from many peers who are not necessarily the same. This conflicts with the nature of ADSL (the "A" being "asymmetric" in that the ratio of download capacity to upload capacity is not 1:1). Because the "tracking" requirements of a DISTRIBUTED data base will entail a slight additional overhead in comparison to a CENTRALIZED data base (such as Usenet where one peer is sending to many using NNTP), the total traffic will be a bit higher, but this is a factor of the data base type, not the 'format' used to transmit the data. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301685 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:32:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301611 theninjasqua :
said by Pegasys66 See Profile :

»www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think
Someone should take some screen caps of that for safe keeping before someone from Bell reads this and goes and changes the site.
--

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301611 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:17:05 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301595 Guspaz : Whatever else happens with the CRTC, you can at the very least nail them for false advertising :P]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301595 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 10:14:40 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301477 R0CKY : LOL... interesting second line under "You will get the following benefits"
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301477 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:52:48 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301454 Pegasys66 : »www.bcenexxia.ca/wholesale/produ···gate.htm

No comment required I think]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301454 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:46:52 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301388 Stewy : Help me understand this.

On point number 3, who is judging "undesirable" content?

On point number 4, if you were to replace all P2P with the exact same amount of HTTP traffic. Would that have the exact same impact on "Bell's core network" as they put it.

In other words is P2P the same to manage as an HTTP packet?

It's as if Bell is saying that yes we can lease you virtual tunnels but you can only use them at %10 capacity in order for our "core network" to run.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20301388 Tue, 08 Apr 2008 09:32:03 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20289035 recneps :
said by TobiasFunke See Profile :

I don't want to make any obviously false or simply overzealous claims.
Why not? Bell will.. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20289035 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:23:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20288063 TobiasFunke : Trouble is, the GAS tariff never says the connection must be "unthrottled" or "not inspected". Of course, I think any reasonable interpretation would require that it be read that way, but ultimately it's a question of how the CRTC and the parties will interpret it.

My goal with this diagram is to present the issue without overstating the facts. This is why I backed away from some of the weaker arguments I made earlier that were based on speculation (e.g., that Bell's move is an anti-competitive attempt to shore up Sympatico). It's also why I'm reluctant to downplay Bell Nexxia's role too much -- the fact that Nexxia provides such a large chunk of TSI's infrastructure is the reason we have this mess in the first place.

Obviously, everyone can draw their own conclusions, but I don't want to make any obviously false or simply overzealous claims.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20288063 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:09:49 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20287614 anon :
Great diagrams but I have two small points to make.

According to the GAS tariff, Bell is supposed to supply an unthrottled link from the residential/business user to Teksavvy's 151 Front St. presence (usually numbered as point '4' in your diagrams).

So when you do a before/after diagram I think you need to add the following words on the 'Before' diagram:

'This connection is unthrottled and not inspected as per CRTC Tariff #xxxxx

On the 'After' diagram our need to add text which conveys that fact that Bell is acting illegally, eg. "In violation of CRTC tariff #xxx, Bell is reducing the speed of the connections by up to 90% of the tariffed speed required and illegally reading data between points 1 and 4."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20287614 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 13:23:00 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20287141 dmz : Might be worth mentioning that TekSavvy still has to pay a lot of money to put the user ON the internet. By this diagram alone, one might assume that part is free.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20287141 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:45:02 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286982 TobiasFunke : Some minor updates to incorporate some of the comments.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286982 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 11:08:59 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286798 NiGHTS : I liked the old pictures more. Bell Nexxia looked smaller, as it should.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286798 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 10:26:19 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286782 anon :
said by TobiasFunke See Profile :

I think this is a truer picture of what's going on and it avoids the whole Sympatico issue altogether, focusing instead on what Bell is doing that is contrary to the letter and/or spirit of the GAS tariff (and net neutrality more generally).
Two thoughts:

Bell will DENY that they are inspecting the CONTENT. (They'll interpret "CONTENT" as the clear data.) Better to describe it as "opening your message" (then Bell can try to explain that they're looking at the shape of the letter and the ink that is used, not the words).

You're buying into Bell's "framing" of the situation. They're not "inspecting", they're WIRE-TAPPING WITHOUT A WARRANT. P2P itself is no more "abusive" than HTTP. Better to say "any messages Bell doesn't like". After "protect its core network" put in brackets "(increase profitability)" and put quotes around "protect".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286782 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 10:21:20 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286577 puzz1ed : The best one yet.

What strikes me is that the tunnel must be so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Sympatico has in the neighbourhood of 2 million high speed subscribers according to the latest annual report. TekSavvy claims about 50,000 all told and CAIP claims to represent 100,000. Bell's core network would have capacity for all the other things it's being used for as well. It'll be interesting to see some hard numbers from Bell to support their claim of congestion.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20286577 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 09:09:13 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20285844 TobiasFunke : I think this is a truer picture of what's going on and it avoids the whole Sympatico issue altogether, focusing instead on what Bell is doing that is contrary to the letter and/or spirit of the GAS tariff (and net neutrality more generally).
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20285844 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 00:53:43 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277602 anon : I don't understand why many of you feel that this is a difficult subject to explain to the average person. The situation can be summed up simply with this:

Bell is stealing from its customers.

Questions?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277602 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 16:56:29 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277230 recneps : Not to offend anyone in the general public, but if you want someone to understand the message clearly (like if you submitted this to a newspaper)
"dumb it down".
90% of the population (made up number) has no idea how this magical 'series of tubes' we call 'the internet' works. Make it as simple and to the point as possible, and people may understand the issue.

1) As a customer, with TS, you are using the phone line to your house, owned by Bell. TS pays to lease this line.
2) your data then moves over the phone line and bell's DSL equipment, where the signal is transferred to TS through a high-bandwidth link, paid for by TS based on a set bandwidth amount.
3) Bell has recently throttled this link, essentially not providing the service TS has paid for.
4) From there, TS has their own links to the internet, separate from Bell Sympatico customers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277230 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:40:55 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276006 TobiasFunke : The throttling is being done at the BRAS, which is more or less at the subscriber entry point into the Bell core network. This obviously makes it easy to throttle upstream, but it's not all that much harder to throttle downstream - you don't need DPI devices at the peering routers. All that's necessary is to delay TCP ACKs from the DSL user (i.e., at the BRAS in the CO) and the sender - wherever it may be - will correspondingly delay sending more packets until it receives ACKs for what it already transmitted.

If you've ever saturated your upstream data rate, you'll know exactly how effective this can be at limiting downstream data rates.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276006 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:52:18 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275386 Arbalister :
said by TobiasFunke See Profile :

One thing I'm still not entirely clear on is whether TekSavvy pays Bell for transit over their core network. I wish someone from TSI could shed some light on this.
Did you forget we're talking about Bell? We, the common man, send one ping of data across anything they can bill for, they do. :-)

Yes, TSI pays for transit over the core. Bell's DSL wholesale arrangement is that the indie ISP pays all the costs involved with getting a packet from the enduser premises to a specified point of interconnect. That's 151 front. Once it gets to the TSI "premises" they can do whatever they want with it - which in this case is fire it to the net via either cogent, peer1, or whomever.

Point is...when I buy a DSL circuit from Bell, I'm paying per customer to get a direct link through bell's internal net, from the customer to my servers. And I'm paying a big per month fee for the backhaul.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275386 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:54:22 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275376 mbind : Sorry, doesn't make too much sense what you write:

(i) if you want upstream control then you bring in a device like a router as soon as possible. This would be in-line with Tobias' comment that they have BRAS in all COs.

(ii) if Bell really has a congested network then you don't throw away traffic at the exit of your network - then it's too late and pretty useless as packets made their way through already. You throw away as soon as possible

(iii) not all P2P is TCP, e.g. newer version use UDP as well

(iv) if Bell can handle traffic or not depends on many factors, including geographical distribution. Not a problem of the pipe to TSI and others.

(v) I don't mint if the ISP "can" traffic shape -Bell would not control the game but depend on the ISP. Very likely ... .

Regards, Marc]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275376 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:51:18 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275280 anon :
said by mbind See Profile :

Hello Tobias,

I don't know the Bell network in detail but some generic thoughts:

the problem shouldn't be the 800kbit/s upstream, likely the large number of ADSL lines with a multi-Mbit/s _downstream_ speed is overwhelming the network.
Regards, Marc
The downstream speed is *limited* by how many pipes ISP/TSI has to connect to Bell's network. Furthermore, the ISP can do traffic shaping before it reaches Bell's network. If Bell cannot handle the traffic, they should tell the ISP when they are ordering the pipes.

The 800kbps upstream traffic is unbounded as there are no QoS/routers going upstream. The only way traffic control is when TCP packets get tossed out after when they hit the exit pipe to ISP.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275280 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:33:40 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274184 mbind : Hello Tobias,

I don't know the Bell network in detail but some generic thoughts:

the problem shouldn't be the 800kbit/s upstream, likely the large number of ADSL lines with a multi-Mbit/s _downstream_ speed is overwhelming the network. Saying this I doubt that the focus of the throttling is upstream but think it is downstream. Upstream throttling would be done as close to the copper wire as possible. Throttling downstream though would happen as close as possible to the entry point of the IP or L2TP traffic, i.e. the exchange in Toronto (and isn't there one in Montreal?).In this case your diagram would be fine regarding the position of the throttle box, IMHO.

Regards, Marc]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274184 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:00:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274054 TobiasFunke : What I've recently been told is that there is indeed a BRAS, sometimes more than one, in every CO. From the BRAS, traffic is routed over the Bell core network in an L2TP tunnel to 151 Front, where it is connected to TekSavvy's bank of routers.

One thing I'm still not entirely clear on is whether TekSavvy pays Bell for transit over their core network. I wish someone from TSI could shed some light on this. I realize they pay for the DSL connect, and they pay for the 1 Gbps links at 151 Front, but AFAICT, TSI doesn't pay anything specifically for the tunnelled traffic on Bell's core network.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274054 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:28:06 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274026 SmithCanada : One point that I have seen referenced indirectly in some posts regarding Bells infrastructure is the idea that the BRAS are not always co-located with the DSL infrastructure -- or, as a question, is there a BRAS in *every* CO?

As I understand it, Teksavvy (and other ISPs) pay for carriage from the BRAS to their connection. However, if the BRAS is not at the same location as the DSL infrastructure in every CO, then there may be places where Bell has to carry the DSL-to-BRAS traffic - possible over a considerable distance - but can't bill it back to anyone.

It is *also* possible that although the above network architecture is correct, Teksavvy is actually paying for carriage from the DSL infrastructure to their connection point. In such a case, all the bandwidth between the DSL and the BRAS should be covered by the tarrifs, with the BRAS appearing as a complex router to separate the traffic according to the ISP that the DSL is signed on to.

Can anyone clarify any of this so that the diagrams can be as accurate as possible?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274026 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:22:28 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20270420 TobiasFunke : Hey guys,

I have done a little bit of research and realized that my diagrams are unfortunately more than a little inaccurate. It appears that I was working from the false impression that Bell's traffic-shaping is taking place at 151 Front - whereas in reality it is much more distributed... basically at every CO, which makes a lot of sense if you think about how it is being rolled out. Don't know why it didn't occur to me sooner.

As much as I want a positive outcome for TSI and us users, I don't like the idea of misrepresenting the situation, so I'd ask that you refrain from spreading my diagrams around until I get the chance to update them.

Also, I've discovered Bell's problem seems to be much more fundamental than I'd originally thought. Specifically, Bell does not have just a Sympatico problem, they believe they have a core network problem and they are or will be facing chronic core network congestion unless they can do something about it. Keep in mind that it's not just our Internet that runs over the core, but also a very large chunk of the national voice network and other services.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20270420 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 13:32:23 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20260529 shikotee : Awesome work Tobias! Kudos!

LoL!

I can't help but wonder - while you are doing this in front of your computer, if you are wearing your blue paint, just in case!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20260529 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 21:10:34 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20260415 anon :
said by PixiWork See Profile :

Bell is going to lose their Bronze hahaha very fast.

»User reviews - Bell Sympatico

»Site FAQ »About BBR Awards
LOL it's gone now. And it's not over yet, the HMCS Sympatico is taking on water fast :)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20260415 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:52:43 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20257119 theninjasqua : I can tell you as a Bell customer that I am being throttled during the same time frame as you guys. I wont be a customer with them for much longer however.
--

-theninjasquad]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20257119 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:04:54 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20257085 RobertR : How do we know that Bell is throttling its wholesale customers' connections the same way as it's own? For what we know, Bell is using different methods to throttle it's own network or running it wide open and just throttling its wholesale customers (which would be anti-competitive.) The diagram above suggests that Bell is treating itself and wholesale customers the same, which may not be the case. I think the diagram should be changed to reflect this by placing item 3 on TekSavvy's pipe only. Customers are also being denied service on an individual basis so they should each get pink boxes as well.

There are several issues here. Traffic shaping, retail customer service denial and wholesale customer service denial.(IMHO, throttling is too technical and has no legal connotation.) Bell is not practicing traffic shaping (as they like to imply) but service denial. Furthermore, the service denial implementation is based on their perceived, and probably inaccurate, analysis of customer data.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20257085 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:01:15 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20256862 TobiasFunke : I spotted some small layout mistakes and typos, then decided to try to rework the phrasing to avoid the "to/from" problem. Here's the result.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20256862 Mon, 31 Mar 2008 10:22:11 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255681 Guspaz : Might want to consider branding Bell differently to further reinforce the difference between Bell and Bell Sympatico.

"Bell Nexxia" perhaps? Although I understand Nexxia doesn't exist anymore.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255681 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 23:57:01 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255240 TobiasFunke : Thanks Marc - I used to do a little bit of graphic design a few years back, still like to do it once in a while.

As for the to/from stuff, my understanding is that it's a little bit of both that Bell does. In the case of Bittorrent, throttling user uploads actually has the effect of decreasing download speeds. That said, it appears that Bell's system just applies a blanket cap once it detects P2P (it may not even be that sophisticated!), but I'm not sure how to explain that in the limited space that's available.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255240 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:12:57 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255194 mbind : Hello Tobias,

*wow* are you creating graphs for a living? Perfect style :-)

But one question: is Bell throttling traffic _to_ TekSavvy/Peer1 or _from_ ?
Taking into account that the upload speed is physically only around 800kbit/s anyway I assume they throttle the download direction?

In this case Bell could easily dismiss this diagram as wrong because of the description in point "4".

Regards, Marc]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255194 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:03:14 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255187 TobiasFunke : Ok guys, I've tried to incorporate feedback as much as possible. I agree with the pie chart idea, but at this point it would be total conjecture, so I've tried to use that philosophy in sizing the shaded areas instead.

I also need to get some real-life work done in the next little while, so if anyone would like to take this up and make additional changes, please PM me and I can send the OmniGraffle source files (or Visio if you prefer). That said, I'll still check in and I can make minor changes if need be.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255187 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:01:21 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255006 Grounded : As you can clearly see from this illustration, Bell Canada / Sympatico provides the greatest portion of the entire network and is responsible for providing and maintaining the service of all our resellers, on top of the million + Sympatico customers. Teksavvy, (and all of our other resellers) provide only a small portion of the vital network, and therefore do not have the same great responsibilities & concerns that we at Bell Canada have. This is why we are working pro-actively to protect the integrity of Internet services, not just for those subscribing directly to Bell Sympatico, but for all Canadians.

If I was working for Bell, that is how I would use these illustrations. I think there is danger in laying out any of this in a way that can be perverted to bolster Bell's claims. We've all seen the comments at the Globe & far too many of those believe that Bell is the protector of the public good.

If you want to use an illustration like this for PR purposes you need to target it directly at your audience & focus the message. So far, this seems to be targeted for us - for people who are already pro-TSI, but lack the network knowledge to be able to picture the breakdown properly. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20255006 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:25:58 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20254912 emoci :
said by DabberDan See Profile :

What exactly is a BRAS? How does it relate to the 5Mbps I'm supposed to get?
BRAS: Broadband Remote Access Server

Others can correct me if I am wrong, but this equipment is found at every CO.....the closer to the CO you are (this is not neccessarily physical closeness, but close in phone line length) the better your speeds should be...

By the way, I edited one of the previously posted illustrations a bit (although the original author could may want tomake it look better)

It may also be worth pointing that the part in blue background here, is the Network operated by Bell, which has been put together via the contributions of both Bell Phone and Sympatico users and third party users as well as government subsidies
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20254912 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:08:27 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20254364 DabberDan : What exactly is a BRAS? How does it relate to the 5Mbps I'm supposed to get?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20254364 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 19:18:29 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20254002 InvalidError :
said by PixiWork See Profile :

Bell is going to lose their Bronze hahaha very fast.

»User reviews - Bell Sympatico

»Site FAQ »About BBR Awards
Sadly, BBR does not offer a 0/5 rating and this is skewing all scores up by 1. Otherwise, it would have been a done deal several weeks ago.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20254002 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 18:06:24 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253927 PixiWork : Bell is going to lose their Bronze hahaha very fast.

»User reviews - Bell Sympatico

»Site FAQ »About BBR Awards]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253927 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:54:26 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253914 Name : I suggest a few more tweaks to work the anti-competitive aspects in:

For the first illustration, change description (4) to read "Internet access for Sympatico customers is throttled because Bell claims the Sympatico network is overloaded. Sympatico charges XX dollars a month for throttled access."

Change description (5) to read "Teksavvy provides unthrottled Internet service through Cogent and Peer1. Teksavvy charges XX dollars a month for unthrottled access."

For the second illustration, change (4) to read "Teksavvy is no longer able to provide unthrottled access."

Because Bell has provided no objective evidence that they're experiencing a bandwidth crunch, their claim of 'limited bandwidth' should not be repeated uncritically. It's b**ls**t and should be treated as such.
--
Coridon Henshaw -=- »www.talisiorder.ca]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253914 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:52:04 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253910 anon : nvm Teksavvy at bottom is in green, I read it as the single line of red is teksavvy customer, not the bottom portion.. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253910 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:51:28 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253901 anon : unless i'm colour blind, on the right of the chart it says it's illustrated as green, but the line on the left is Red. :p]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253901 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:50:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253889 Grounded : Tobias, this is much better!

I'd still try and think more pie-chart in sizing the different portions - I don't know the accurate percentages, but even in this illustration Bell is large in comparison to TSI & the Internet. Obviously you cannot illustrate the physical size of the Internet but there should be some way to show that it is the common carrier for all traffic (Bell, TSI, Rogers, Gov't. etc.) And that companies such as TSI pay for, and manage their own bandwidth usage in this portion of the illustration.

The filtering servers could probably be reduced to little more than a dash - again you want to remove the impression that Bell is providing the largest piece of the entire Internet pie.

Sorry to keep hammering at this point, but I've spent many years working on strategic media plans and I look at this as I would from Bell's POV. Anything that can be used to show how much they provide helps them. What we want to show is the accurate position that, although they are an essential step, they are a fairly small part of the overall TSI network. Most people will look at the final image for only a second or two and that will either change their opinion of the situation or reaffirm their opinion. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253889 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:47:14 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253735 TobiasFunke : Good suggestions, all... here's my handiwork so far...
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253735 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:12:33 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253605 Name : That's good, but you have to make the point that the connection between points 1, 2 and 4 is regulated by the CRTC as common carrier infrastructure. Bell has no legal right to impede competition by disrupting connections between customers and non-Bell service providers.

I'd suggest making two illustrations. Do one of the network prior to wholesale filtering, with the #3 filter installed in the Sympatico portion of the network. Point out that Sympatico chose, as a business decision, to filter its customers' traffic.

For the second illustration, leave the #3 box where it isin your current graph, in the common carrier portion. Point out that Bell imposed Sympatico's filtering model at the common carrier level so no DSL ISP can offer better service than Sympatico chooses to offer.

The anticompetitive aspects are key to this. Making the it clear that Bell is doing things to stifle competition won't endear them to the public regardless of what 'P2P is illegal' smokescreen they cough up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253605 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:41:27 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253563 Jabus : Tobias: I think it creates an issue for non-tech people at point number 2. Do normal people know what a Broadband Remote Access Server is, also most people will assume since it travels over 'Bell private network it might have people thinking that's normal and they should have the ability to throttle. Anyway to fix that?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253563 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:31:21 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253543 TobiasFunke : Good points.

How about something along these lines?
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253543 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:27:42 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253511 Grounded : This is the best yet. But for an outside audience this also shows that Bell's portion of the TS network is huge. Remember that many people will at it like an illustrated pie chart - they'll see all those large areas dedicated to Bell, a much smaller area dedicated to TSI, and an area dedicated to Internet that appears smaller than the Bell portion.

On quick glance all these various diagrams make it look like Bell is providing the largest portion of the overall network. By extension, it looks like Bell has the most legitimate cause to be wary of heavy traffic.

While the diagram is accurate, it could be effectively used as pro-Bell propaganda. All Bell needs to do is throw in their own numbers: i.e. "Sympatico serving xx million individuals and xx corporate customers across x provinces. They can easily use this to continue to mislead media & public into believing they are protecting the entire Internet & all the people who use it. It's bullshit, but it is their argument & people are buying into that.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253511 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 16:20:45 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253316 ultracat :
said by MikeG See Profile :

Put this one together, pretty basic.. could of taken out the routers i guess, but it looks better this way.
I like this one a lot too, the way it's laid out it's nice and simple (again keeping the intended audience in mind).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253316 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:34:33 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253306 ultracat : I think that's better. Especially with the point by point explanation on the right.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253306 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:33:11 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253233 TobiasFunke : Based on feedback I've simplified and updated my diagrams... actually I like the one with the text the best so far... Let me know what you think.

Also, if anyone would like a high-quality PDF version, let me know.
Click for full size
not so win
Click for full size
win
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20253233 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:20:54 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252489 mlerner :
said by MikeG See Profile :

Put this one together, pretty basic.. could of taken out the routers i guess, but it looks better this way.
Nice graphics, that one is extremely simplistic.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252489 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:02:29 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252469 TobiasFunke : Oh, I see, but that's not actually on Bell's voice-data network, it's the link inside 151 Front St W, right?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252469 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 13:00:23 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252462 Guspaz : Well, $19.50-$20.50, so close enough.

They then pay another $1800 (can't remember the exact fee) per GigE to Bell's network.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252462 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 12:59:19 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252450 TobiasFunke : Rocky, does emoci have that right? Do you pay $20/mo/subscriber to Bell for the phone line and an additional amount for the backhaul over Bell's network? Or does that $20 cover everything from modem->BRAS?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252450 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 12:57:47 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252438 Guspaz : In fact, while they may pay thousands to maintain the network (~$1800 per line last I checked, so $7200 total), they pay up to $1,000,000 per month for the DSL lines of all their customers and resellers ($420,000 for just their own DSL customers).

They spend a lot more on those loop fees than they do to Bell for the transit.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20252438 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 12:56:38 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20251487 R0CKY : Nice explanations guys!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20251487 Sun, 30 Mar 2008 08:58:51 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250535 Jabus : There you go. You took out everything complicated, and now I'm not scared when I look at the picture and I understand the bottom line. Though why TSI needs to go through Bell might need to be explained to those who don't know anything about how it works in Ontario.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250535 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:45:57 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250525 emoci : I took the liberty to divide the Bell/TSI operated parts of the network and any associated costs
Click for full size
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250525 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:43:26 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250495 MikeG : Put this one together, pretty basic.. could of taken out the routers i guess, but it looks better this way.
--
Success is measured by effort.
Discover Hamilton
Click for full size
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250495 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:37:13 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250442 matradley :
said by An Onymous :

ISP pays money to Bell. Bell screw ISP.

This simple enough?
I vote that we make a wallpaper out of this. :D]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250442 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:20:21 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250418 anon : "Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein

For complex issues such as this, you can't always over simplify things. I have been reading websites for the last few days and noticed most of the readers' comments are incorrect. I guess this is the fault of the "U.S.A. Today" style media and the short attention span generation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250418 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:15:30 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250312 ultracat :
said by An Onymous :

ISP pays money to Bell. Bell screw ISP.

This simple enough?
hahaha : ) Perfect! No seriously, I wasn't trying to poo-poo the efforts, but I really do think the layperson would need a 2-3 step diagram at most to grasp it. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250312 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 22:49:45 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250233 anon :
said by TobiasFunke See Profile :

Ok, so here's another one, but I'm not certain this is an accurate picture of what they're doing.
I have another idea I'll post shortly.
My only suggestion is that you drag the BAS+Throttle to the left so they are part of the 'blue' area - which all falls under Access Services and CRTC regulation.

This would make clearer the three sections of Access Provider, Internet Service Provider and the actual Internet itself.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20250233 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 22:29:15 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249816 tranceduden :
said by An Onymous :

ISP pays money to Bell. Bell screw ISP.

This simple enough?
rofl, nice]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249816 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:59:55 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249708 andyb : LOL at least some people have a sence of humour rather than hate against idividuals not involved.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249708 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:36:23 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249692 Riplin : The most accurate representation yet.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249692 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:33:49 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249645 anon : ISP pays money to Bell. Bell screw ISP.

This simple enough?
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249645 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:24:01 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249565 ultracat : Love the idea and effort, but have a look at all these diagrams in the thread. Are any of them simple enough for a non-tech person to understand?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249565 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:07:41 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249557 anon : Thanks guys for the spell checks...
Click for full size
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249557 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:06:16 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249552 CanerisErik :
said by HeadSpinning See Profile :

Who is Bell Annex? I've heard of Bell Aliant, and Bell Nexxia (no longer exists), but never Bell Annex.
He tried to spell Nexxia backwards, but the throttling caused Annex to come out.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249552 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 20:05:38 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249486 HeadSpinning : Who is Bell Annex? I've heard of Bell Aliant, and Bell Nexxia (no longer exists), but never Bell Annex.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249486 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:52:33 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249483 sbrook : Just to clarify that piccie a bit ... that's Leased lines (as opposed to least lines - which would mean the fewest lines :) ) ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249483 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:52:10 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249402 anon : This is my dummy guide version...

The nasty part of this deal is as follows:
When a user downloads a file, the data gets from the internet to TSI who pays for the full use of their link to the user on a leasted part of Bell Annex's network.

The bandwidth is limited by how much capacities that TSI already paid for. There is no way the user can overflow the traffic at Bell Annex at all!! Not unless Bell Annex does not live up to their part of the bargain and not have enough capacity, but oversell their network.

The user at TSI downloading is no way affecting anyone other than fellow users at TSI. TSI actually doubled their capacities for the last few days...
Click for full size
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249402 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:33:27 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249376 Grounded : This looks great. Could you also do an alternate version showing proportionally how much of the overall network is Bell, how much is TSI, how much is Peer1/Cogent,etc. ( as you accurately put it, that's really the Internet & it's not part of Bell.)

What I'm worried about is letting Bell take hold of the narrative where they already have most people believing that the bandwidth that TS & its users are using is actually Bell's resource. They are also pushing the argument that The Internet, not just Bell's switches, is being degraded by these protocols and they are not just preserving their own networks, but somehow protecting the integrity of the Internet for Canadians. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249376 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:27:40 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249323 TobiasFunke : Ok, so here's another one, but I'm not certain this is an accurate picture of what they're doing.

I have another idea I'll post shortly.
Click for full size
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249323 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:17:13 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249301 infamouskid : well we could only assume for now where it is. we dont know what kind of throttling they are using yet do we?

lets hope to god they aint sandvine boxes.
--
"carpe diem"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249301 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:13:21 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249279 TobiasFunke : Good point. AFAIK, it's taking place at the BRAS? Is that right? I'll see if I can highlight it a little better.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249279 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:09:52 EDT Re: Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249272 infamouskid : nice post. i think some users will be asking. where does the throttling take place?
--
"carpe diem"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249272 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:08:11 EDT Illustrating the network and throttling for non-tech people http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249254 TobiasFunke : I've come up with a simplified network diagram to use when introducing the current network infrastructure to non-techie people who want to understand the issue. The idea is to present the main pieces of the network that matter in this conversation: 1. what Bell owns and controls, 2. what TSI owns and controls and 3. what TSI leases from Bell.

With that said, I present the diagram for comments. Is anything wrong? Have I missed anything important? Is anything just unclear?

Thanks guys and gals!
Click for full size
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20249254 Sat, 29 Mar 2008 19:04:36 EDT