Re: Clue in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20266680 en Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:00:42 EDT Sat, 04 Jul 2009 06:00:42 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20290404 Ulmo :
said by FastiBook See Profile :

We only have corded phones. Most other data networked phones are entirely dependent on grid power, at least verizon did something about that, unlike comcast, vonage,
Nit: my very standard Comcast POTS phone is battery backed up, and I know it works for a fact. Product name CDV.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20290404 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 01:10:17 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281322 3SGTE : They are just going to adopt POOF* later.

$fontbg Power Over Optical Fiber
$Fontbg
--
Overheard: "I could careless matter of Fact"
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20281322 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 10:11:32 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275074 FastiBook : We only have corded phones. Most other data networked phones are entirely dependent on grid power, at least verizon did something about that, unlike comcast, vonage, etc etc...... If i have a question about our battery (which in 2004 lasted 12 hours when our electricity was out for that whole time) i will call verizon and have them answer the questions, instead of setting my house on fire (which you can't do because the adapter won't allow it) I've taken the battery out, put it in, saw how it all worked. My main question would be where does one find a replacement battery....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275074 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:51:57 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20270816 patcat88 :
said by Answer Guy See Profile :

Also, Verizon is making a point of burying the fiber in more areas and avoiding aerial when possible. This puts the cable in less danger of being damaged.
FALSE
»www.news12.com/BK/topstories/art···d=194480
»What the hell is going on in Brooklyn? FIOS protest?
They are avoiding it at all costs. Even in Bayside I often see where the copper POTS ducks underground to cross a street between 2 long blocks of houses that are backyard aerial fed, and Verizon added 1 pole on each side walk of the street to be crossed and ran the FIOS feeder aerially.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20270816 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 14:47:35 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267663 Answer Guy : Training two sets of techs and outfitting them with different equipment is costly. The huge cost of copper cable materials puts it in a league all by itself when you compare it to fiber. A 100 pair copper costs 8X the cost of a 96 fiber cable in materials. With copper going up every day, this factor will only increase.

Also, Verizon is making a point of burying the fiber in more areas and avoiding aerial when possible. This puts the cable in less danger of being damaged.

If you were to rebuild an entire office from ground zero, fiber is cheaper to build. But, it is also cheaper to maintain and easier to troubleshoot problems than copper. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267663 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:10:31 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267575 Answer Guy : If you ever get a chance to read documents on proving in an FTTP network from a cost savings standpoint, you should browse the numbers as it makes for some interesting reading. With the rising cost of copper, it makes no sense to maintain two separate cable networks to support battery backups. In fact, that was one of the largest hurdles during the early FTTP deployments. They tried to power units from offices in the late 90's and found it to be to costly.

How many people here still have a corded phone in their home for use during power outages? Most people I know use cordless phones and are thus rendered useless in a power outage situation anyway. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267575 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:57:20 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267459 xsiddalx :
said by Pathfinder See Profile :

And what of a cable failure or a tree taking a cable down?
And of the cost of the pressure needed to keep moisture out of the cable? Squirrels, rats, ice?
I know that the fiber will be also be effected by some of this but now 2 crews have to go out to fix it.
Splicing a few fibers is also a lot less time consuming than boarding and splicing a 2400 pair cable.
It is fact. Fiber is easier to maintain.
Not sure what you are saying.

Trees can take fiber down (for fun search for bees and fiber outage). Rodents chew through things, Fibber is certainly easier ;)

Why are two crews needed? Sounds doubly expenpensive to maintain!

Yet splicing a fiber is cheaper at lesser cable bundles.

Fiber rocks, but it ain't cheaper...fiber has it's issues (moisture related as well), but I agree it is where the network provider should head. I don't think there is ANY network provider who would disagree or build otherwise...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267459 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 22:35:54 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267027 Pathfinder : And what of a cable failure or a tree taking a cable down?
And of the cost of the pressure needed to keep moisture out of the cable? Squirrels, rats, ice?
I know that the fiber will be also be effected by some of this but now 2 crews have to go out to fix it.
Splicing a few fibers is also a lot less time consuming than boarding and splicing a 2400 pair cable.
It is fact. Fiber is easier to maintain.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20267027 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:29:52 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266871 xsiddalx :
said by Tzale See Profile :

said by verolom See Profile :

Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT.
Bad idea... Verizon wants to get rid of copper and sell it off. They don't want to have to maintain a copper infrastructure.. One of the main positives of switching to a fiber optic last mile solution is that it is totally passive between the CO and the ONT... Thus, a lot of the maintenance problems in the past can be eliminated, saving a ton of money.

-Tzale
You fail to acknowledge that maintaining a copper loop requires Verizon to offer the loop as an unbundled element to competitive local providers on a wholesale basis.

The maintenance savings are elimination of local competition.

»www.techlawjournal.com/topstorie···1215.asp

Passive electronics have been around at least 15 years.

Passive electronics do not equal passive maintenance.

I call bullshit.

If the fiber infrastructure is providing services and customer prem batteries are providing the backup, what maintenance costs are there to leave the copper connected to the customer premises?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266871 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 21:06:17 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266739 xsiddalx :
said by Pathfinder See Profile :

The fiber network is replacing the copper network. Why would Verizon wish to maintain 2 different plants?
The copper network is a bear to maintain.
How so?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266739 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:46:33 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266680 bogey780 : Thanks for the info on HVDC.

The way I took it the loss and inability to step effectively is what killed DC because placing power plants locally killed the idea for most Americans. While AC could be transmitted at high voltage and stepped down to low voltage locally.

Either way, that's why I liked BellSouth's FTTC engineering. It used 22ga cabling to power 130VDC systems. I could see an eventual move to FTTH from there could possibly allow for telco provided power to the house (which was within 1kft always).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266680 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:37:08 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266527 verolom : My point was that if there is a will, there is a way. It was not that there is a will or any regulation from the gov't to do this.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266527 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:09:16 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266509 verolom : Thank you. Probably the ONTs run on 12V or 6V (additionally downconverted to 5V) so some power conversion and loss will occur.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266509 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:07:43 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266420 patcat88 : here is the math, lets assume 90v, since thats what a telephone rings at.
90 volts
0.0842 ohms per meter for 24 gauge
60000 feet, FIOS uses BPON, 12 mile limit from central office
90*(90/((60000/3)*0.0842))=4.8 watts

20000feet
90*(90/((20000/3)*0.0842))=14.4 watts

heck, I dont know how RF noise friendly this is, but if we use 2 wires, we can use earth return, and get 2 times what is there, add a 2nd pair, same thing

»fios ont power req

18watts with TV+internet+phone running (not on emergency power), emergency power will be less

so yes its feasible, you'll probably need a new ONT tho, I dont think the current ONTs are as optimized as they could be when running on emergency power, so I dont think it would be as simple as plug battery pigtail of BBU into adapter and 2 screw terminals on the other end of adapter.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20266420 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 19:49:18 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20265925 shdesigns : DC transmits better than AC. There are now several DC high-V power lines. They use DC because you don't get the reactive loss of the lines.

The problem with DC on mains power is you can not step it up or down. Edison had to run everything on one voltage because he could not step it up or down. Westinghouse (Tesla) could step up the voltage for lower losses, then step down locally.

As far as the local loop, I have worked with devices powered over 24GA wire. For a device that used about 8W, at 24 volts, the best we could do was about 700' on a single pair and 1000' on 2 pair.
--
Scott Henion

Embedded Systems Consultant, shenion on #ATU @irc.freenode.net
SHDesigns home]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20265925 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 18:26:49 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20265000 Tzale :
said by verolom See Profile :

Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT.
Bad idea... Verizon wants to get rid of copper and sell it off. They don't want to have to maintain a copper infrastructure.. One of the main positives of switching to a fiber optic last mile solution is that it is totally passive between the CO and the ONT... Thus, a lot of the maintenance problems in the past can be eliminated, saving a ton of money.

-Tzale
--
Neoconservatives (G.W.B) are not true conservatives. A conservative believes in defending the Constitution. First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. - RON PAUL 2008 »www.usconstitution.net/const.html
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20265000 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:56:35 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264819 bogey780 : And I think you mean diode and not capacitor.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264819 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:34:07 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264813 bogey780 : 'most dwellings have two loops, each is 24AWG or thicker'

Correction: most dwellings may have two loops, each maybe is 24AWG or thicker.

DC doesn't work that way. It doesn't run like AC which is why Westinghouse won and Edison lost when it came to standardization. You can't transmit DC long distances effectively unless you have high gauge wiring and enough of a step-up to reduce voltage drop.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264813 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:33:16 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264624 Pathfinder : The fiber network is replacing the copper network. Why would Verizon wish to maintain 2 different plants?
The copper network is a bear to maintain.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264624 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 15:05:02 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264504 verolom : So most dwellings have two loops, each is 24AWG or thicker. This gauge can safely carry what, maybe 500mA? So with two loops on -48V at 1A we have 48W of usable DC power. If the damn ONT consumes much more, then Al Gore will have much bigger issues with it than replacing lead-acid batteries every 5 years by Joe and Jane Doe. :)

We are talking DC power, already provided on these loops to power offhook phones. For the ONT, power supply filters can be put in place (capacitors) so that the ONTs do not interfere with DSL or POTS lines in the same cable.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264504 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:51:00 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264381 cornelius785 : i agree. those phone lines aren't meant to supply power. i think supplying power over phonelines could be dangerous and could degrade other's quality of phone service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20264381 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 14:31:13 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20263843 bogey780 : Easier said than engineered.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20263843 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:19:30 EDT Re: Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20263797 hayabusa3303 :
said by verolom See Profile :

Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT.
Could be true but, i dont know what the amp pull is on the ONT, copper might not be big enough(awg wise) to support the amp load for a long time. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20263797 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:13:21 EDT Clue http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20263781 verolom : Here's in idea, keep the copper loop to power the ONT.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20263781 Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:10:58 EDT