Topic 'Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC' in forum 'TekSavvy'

Topic 'Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC' in forum 'TekSavvy' - dslreports.com http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20272516 en Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:00:34 EDT Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:00:34 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20293887 said by jfmezei:

So why put a gag order on ISPs on an issue which is and needs to be public ?You answered your own question. The CRTC doesn't have the rigorous "Civil Rules of Procedure" of the courts - Bell can and will use every possible PR trick to influence the outcome. The last thing we want is some ISP to mis-phrase something and give Bell the weapon to kill us.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20293887 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 21:02:09 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20293804 As it stands now Canada is a technological backwater in these areas in terms of pricing and choice.
I am all for allowing the market to regulate itself for the most part but only if the market is actually allowed to regulate itself and dictate price and this includes allowing foreign investors and entrepreneurs to pour their money and resources and competition into the Canadian market.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20293804 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:44:14 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20292008 I agree Arbalister. It is all about public opinion. I never
>said otherwise.

Exactly. This is not a trial. There is no "everything you say from now on can be taken against you" type of thing. CAIP have taken statements from Bell from before the issue, and taken some from after it began. If Bell want to take statements made by Rocky before the issue arose, they can do it.

And since it was the CAIP who made the submission to the CRTC, then the ISPs should be free to continue their PR campaign to ensure politicians remain aware of the issue.

The CRTC will ask Bell to comment on the specific filing made by the CAIP. As long as what ISP's say does not contradict the CAIP statements, there is no reason to have a gag order.

Frankly, I think Rocky knows about the issue far more than the lawyer who crafted the wordy document, so I have no fear that Rocky would contradict anyone in this matter.

The CRTC isn't a court. What CAIP presented will stand on its own, and it won't be debated in a CRTC court with lawyers from both sides bringing in witnesses etc. If lucky, the CAIP will have one chance for rebuttal of Bell's expected wishy washy answer.

When you consider that Bell's answer to the CAIP letter will likely be some wishy washy dismissive letter using words to try to convince the CRTC that Bell should be allowed to mamage its networks the way it wants, the onus will be on the CRTC to make a decision.

And such a decision will be influenced a LOT by the then current public opinion/media coverage/politician pressure. So it is extremely important to keep the public debate up and continue to put pressure on policians so that the CRTC makes a decision against Bell.

The tariffs are public. The CRTC filing is public. And we want our government to be aware of the overall need for net neutrality, as well as this specific case of Bell abusing its monopoly power. So why put a gag order on ISPs on an issue which is and needs to be public ?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20292008 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:36:18 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291812 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291812 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:58:15 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291762 said by NiGHTS:

said by ultracat:

People, if you want corporate, switch back to Bell or Rogers!

Are you serious? That is quite the arrogant attitude. How far do you take this attitude? Do you also do away with lawyers because they are "corporate"? Bell has lots of bullets at their disposal, as should CAIP. CAIP and Teksavvy need to take it to the next level. This cannot be fought by a bunch of geeks on a dslreports forum, that will get written off as 5%.
Nights - trust me in this, I've been doing this for 12 years. CAIP and TSI, and little ISPs like mine, haven't got a prayer unless the public outrage continues. This whole throttling things - the fact that Bell swung their bat and connected not just with the indie ISPs that they've been getting away with screwing with for years, but also hitting the CBC, the Heritage Ministry, waking the Micheal Geist lion, hitting for a second time the customers they chased away - who are rightfully indignant that Bell has removed their right to choose better service...

*That* is what's going to win this issue. The groundswell of public opinion against Bell will carry the issue. The CRTC is famous for allowing the status quo to stand..."oh, Bell is doing it already, so we'll allow it...but they can't do *this* again in future..." - crap like that. CAIP can fight a holding action, they might even manage to get the caps lifted for competing ISPs...but for how long? The only way to make this *permanent* is for us to keep the pressure of public opinion firmly against Bell, and directly on top of our MP's and the CRTC. They work better when their jobs are on the line.

Some slick PR guy *aint* gonna sway the issue.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291762 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:43:11 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291607 said by ultracat:

People, if you want corporate, switch back to Bell or Rogers!
Are you serious? That is quite the arrogant attitude. How far do you take this attitude? Do you also do away with lawyers because they are "corporate"? Bell has lots of bullets at their disposal, as should CAIP. CAIP and Teksavvy need to take it to the next level. This cannot be fought by a bunch of geeks on a dslreports forum, that will get written off as 5%.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291607 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:10:20 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291580 said by ancodia:

I'm all for public awareness but spreading mis-information like this : "let everyone "know" that Deep Packet INSPECTION is looking at their private banking" doesnt help anyone. DPI in no way compromises the security of a SSL link.
Oh ... and "5% of users degrade the service for the 95%"? Bell is using professional liars and their media connections to distribute all kinds of half-truths. I say do the same with people whose eyes glaze over as quick as you can say "SSL". PR battles are all about public perception and have very little to do with truth and accuracy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291580 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:06:14 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291547 said by ftp1020:

For the rest of us, however, the PR battle goes onPrecisely.

If WE say anything that is in error, it is vital that it cannot be ascribed back to the ISPs. So do not expect any "support" or "guidance" from them.

DO NOT LET the necessity for the ISPs to remain silent PREVENT YOU from speaking out LOUDLY to ANYBODY who will listen.

Even if you have to sit on them to make them pay attention. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291547 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:57:37 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291540 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291540 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:56:08 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291485 said by jfmezei:

So I do not see why laywyers would instruct the Rocky's of the internet to clam up.
Because, like Bell's shareholder statement or Laszlo's comments elsewhere, any subsequent statement might be used by Bell in their defence. CAIP has used Bell's own statements made since the throttling started in their claims against Bell, and it would be foolish to give Bell the same opportunity.

For the ISPs, the PR battle is over and the legal battle has just begun - so let the lawyers do what they know best, in their own arena. For the rest of us, however, the PR battle goes on - let everyone "know" that Deep Packet INSPECTION is looking at their private banking; let everyone "know" that Bell is trying to censor parts of the internet; let everyone "know" that once Bell achieves total monopoly everyone's internet will double in price...

...and then let Bell squirm over the technical merits of such statements.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291485 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:45:53 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291419 Agreed PR firms can go to hell ... all they do is sell lies.

You need to fight fire with fire. I think it is a big mistake for the Rockys of the internet community to "clam up" because this eliminates the PR weapon which is extremely needed at this point in time to keep the politician's focus on the issue. Politicians ride with the wind. The CRTC is influended by what directions politicians are riding in.

Bell's PR machien is strong and can set the wind's direction, especially if everyone else clams up.

Right now, the only thing we, lowly peole, know is that the CIAP says it has submitted a document to the CRTC.

These documents become OFFICIALLY public as soon as they are posted on the CRTC web site. So I do not see why laywyers would instruct the Rocky's of the internet to clam up. This is not a murder trial with a jury being held in private chambers. This is a public debate with our government making a decision on actions taken by Bell.

(I use "Rocky" in this message as a generic name for any ISP owner).

I say thins because the CAIP appears to be a virtual organisation without a working telephone number, so the laxy/lemming media will not go through hoops and loops to try to get the ISP's side of the story if they can't easily reach the CIAP. "The CAIP did not immediatly return our calls" or "The CIAP could not immediatly be reached". (whenever you hear the word "immediatly" in here, it means that the persons they tried to reach didn't call back within 5 minutes. And since rthe CAIP main telephone number in Ottawa doesn't even have an answering machine, the media won't be able to get in touch with anyone there to call them back.

Without a PR effort, it means that the legal arguments will have to be far more potent to force the CRTC to go against the PR winds. It is a real shame because until the ISPs were ordered to clam up, they were starting to shift the win in their direction. But now it will all go back to Bell's direction.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20291419 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:31:04 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20290097 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20290097 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:43:01 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20290027 said by NiGHTS:

Agreed, having a dedicated and skilled PR person who is truly educated on this subject is an excellent idea. Bell has an army of lobbyists and PR people who are masters at spin. PR is extremely important to your cause, and you don't want to spread yourself too thin.
Are you guys joking? You know this whole thing was cracked wide open on this forum by the customers right? It's the customers that are pushing this issue through this forum and with the media. Why? Because Rocky and the gang are real people, running a small business, that we can all relate to. IMO the LAST thing TSI should do is hire some slick PR firm and tuck Rocky and the like away in a corner somewhere never to be heard from again. Rocky's been doing an awesome job, and I think the public is WAY more interested in getting behind the little guy to fight off the big bully. People, if you want corporate, switch back to Bell or Rogers!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20290027 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:22:06 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20289395
Pulse to Touch Tone is now done electronically and generates DTMF tones anyway. A lot of people with dial lines can still use Touch Tone!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20289395 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:59:44 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20289011 Ever wonder why you still pay Bell $2.95 per month for touchtone phone service?

Thirty+ years ago when touchtone was first being rolled out Bell claimed they needed the then $0.75 per month (or whatever was allowed) in order to buy the equipment that could support touchtone and that the only way to make that happen is if there was a charge for it.

Today the now $2.95 (or whatever it is embedded in your bill) is being used - as Bell would like you to believe -- to subsidize the few thousand remaining customers using rotary phone service. Those electomechanical switches from the 1950's take a lot of maintenance.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20289011 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:16:57 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20288151 said by jfmezei:

One must ask the question: What is **REALLY** going on at Bell ?
I've been trying to ask that myself.

If anyone believes that this is to help manage the network, they have to get their heads examined.

You don't need to see the virus to know that you have a cold. The same applies here, this is simply punishment for those doing it better than bell.

On top of that I'm willing to bet the house that in the very near future sympatico users are going to see a P2P improvement in their service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20288151 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:32:33 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20280223 said by DarkStar33:

Look at them today. They grew there business by innovation. They killed the same businesses that laughed at them at first.Then BCE could use a self-defense plea...LOL
Dinosaurs have no place in the new millenium anyway...
Where's my rifle?(figuratively)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20280223 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:33:00 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20280219 said by DarkStar33:

Microsoft, Google and Walmart and "foreign" car manufacturer all started off as small time operations.

Look at them today. They grew there business by innovation. They killed the same businesses that laughed at them at first.
Microsoft grew their business by years of illegal anti-competitive practices. Same as Bell.

They started off small, granted... But they are finishing big.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20280219 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:31:52 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20279923
Microsoft, Google and Walmart and "foreign" car manufacturer all started off as small time operations.

Look at them today. They grew there business by innovation. They killed the same businesses that laughed at them at first.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20279923 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:27:31 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20278611 said by Guspaz:

That list includes ISPs that:

1) Are very small
2) Are resellers of a larger ISP (Montreal-DSL resells TekSavvy).

Eliminate those from the list in those two categoriesLet me remind you that all ISPs do start very small. I found my own notes when I was ISP shopping back in 2001. I wrote that Teksavvy was 30$ with a cap and was a reseller of "1st Access" which itself was 27$ + cap. Obviously, things changed or maybe I was in error back then...

My point being, with those facts, if Bell's stunt would happened 6 years ago, it's like saying "shut up Teksavvy, you're too small, you don't have enough users to give your opinion". I don't think it's fair.

In fact, 3rd party DSL providers need to unite forces somehow to face the beavers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20278611 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:48:31 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277277 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277277 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:51:00 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277268
1) Are very small
2) Are resellers of a larger ISP (Montreal-DSL resells TekSavvy).

Eliminate those from the list in those two categories, and then look at the biggest few, and I think you'll see that the ISPs that represent most of the customers are indeed working on this issue.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277268 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:49:03 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277242 said by Guspaz:

said by En Enfer:

90% of 3rd party ISPs probably said "fine with us" and it would have been difficult for Teksavvy to find partners in this battle.

Sorry, not buying it. Primus, TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac have all spoken out against this and vowed to fight it. Between those companies and their resellers, you probably have the vast majority of all customers of third party ISPs in Ontario/Quebec.

There are others (Velcom, for example) that I haven't seen responses from, but suspect they are also opposing this in league with TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac.I went to »www.canadianisp.com and I see like a hundred different ISPs listed there just for DSL service in big cities like TO and MTL at various prices (remember those other 3rd party ISPs at 35$-40$-45/month with ridiculously low monthly caps?). (And yes, a few of them are resellers)...

Anyways, it's not because they're not big names that their voice can't be heard. I know a few of them who are calling their customer exceeding 50Gb in a month, and throttling is a solution for them or a relieve concerning "abusing" customers...

Honestly, I think that if an ISP wants to throttle their clients (as their "business model"), they better off doing it by themselves, not by beavers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277242 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:42:44 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277205 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277205 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:37:38 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277172 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277172 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:31:47 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277151 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277151 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:29:37 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277142 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20277142 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:27:08 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276942 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276942 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:46:11 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276923 Bell has already given them all the ammo
they need to fire back...
Any discussions on these boards dealing with their
strategies are being viewed by Bell trolls and they are reporting back to their masters.
Propositions on other threads in these forums on how to bypass the throttle and how to cripple Sympatico through exploits will also be used by their Legal Team to show how these independant ISPs are harboring hackers and pirates...
(We know it is not the case but they will argue it)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276923 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:42:57 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276825 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276825 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:23:24 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276747
And hey, if teksavvy is clamming up for legal reasons thats good, but still hiring a PR person to get a better version across to public/media would be nice as well]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276747 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:09:41 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276512 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276512 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:31:35 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276489 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276489 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:28:46 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276333 said by pegsys :

They want deregulation?
Let's give'em what they want...
Full deregulation across the whole spectrum of
telecommunications....Broadband internet,satelitte internet
and television,cellphone etc...
Let the big boys come in from the US, Europe and Asia come play with them...And let the games begin.
Bell,Rogers and Videotron have been the big fish in a small
pond for way too long,let's see how fast they will cry uncle
against the big sharks our regulations have protected them
from for so long....
Well, I all for deregulating TV and letting Dish/DirectTV in to compete in Canada. Millions of Canadians have been harassed about pointing their dish at the wrong satellite.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276333 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:58:40 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276301 said by Guspaz:

Paul from Acanac actually came right out and said that their lawyer (who we know is being shared by the other ISPs since this is a joint action) told them to clam up. I'm not just speculating on this ;)
In any type of litigation, whatever the party says can be used on record to hurt their case.
Its actually good to see that Teksavvy is staying mum on more than a few issues. We do have a real case here and the ISPs dont want to jeopardize their position. (Which I believe is a strong one)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276301 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:52:06 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276271 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276271 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:45:54 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276217 said by Guspaz:

said by justsometech:

Absolutely, they are definitely NOT fine with this. What worries me is that, with all of our (and my) own complaining about the issue, it got mentioned in parliament debate within a week or so? I am pretty impressed by this.

What i am not impressed with is the lack of voracity that other ISP's, Teksavvy included, have shown. I would expect that these small business owners, who employee people from their perspective areas, would be setting up meetings with their prospective MP's and MPP's, detailing lawyers briefs, and movign the issue forward with the CRTC and comp. bureau (since in the end it is their business being affected).

I feel that it mostly a lot of out spoken public members and not enough of the ISP's that are doing the talking.
I hope it is just because they are finalizing their agreements with each other on how to best dela with the situation...

They ARE doing exactly that, but their lawyer told them to clam up, so they're keeping quiet for now. Their lack of info on the issue doesn't represent lack of action.
i definitely noticed that by listening to rocky's call with the one radio station. like he was afraid to present his position and had to beat around the bush. the presenter was the one that really said what rocky would not]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276217 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:35:35 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276181 said by justsometech:

Absolutely, they are definitely NOT fine with this. What worries me is that, with all of our (and my) own complaining about the issue, it got mentioned in parliament debate within a week or so? I am pretty impressed by this.

What i am not impressed with is the lack of voracity that other ISP's, Teksavvy included, have shown. I would expect that these small business owners, who employee people from their perspective areas, would be setting up meetings with their prospective MP's and MPP's, detailing lawyers briefs, and movign the issue forward with the CRTC and comp. bureau (since in the end it is their business being affected).

I feel that it mostly a lot of out spoken public members and not enough of the ISP's that are doing the talking.
I hope it is just because they are finalizing their agreements with each other on how to best dela with the situation...
They ARE doing exactly that, but their lawyer told them to clam up, so they're keeping quiet for now. Their lack of info on the issue doesn't represent lack of action.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276181 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:29:34 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276171
What i am not impressed with is the lack of voracity that other ISP's, Teksavvy included, have shown. I would expect that these small business owners, who employee people from their perspective areas, would be setting up meetings with their prospective MP's and MPP's, detailing lawyers briefs, and movign the issue forward with the CRTC and comp. bureau (since in the end it is their business being affected).

I feel that it mostly a lot of out spoken public members and not enough of the ISP's that are doing the talking.
I hope it is just because they are finalizing their agreements with each other on how to best dela with the situation...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276171 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:28:06 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276091 said by En Enfer:

90% of 3rd party ISPs probably said "fine with us" and it would have been difficult for Teksavvy to find partners in this battle.Sorry, not buying it. Primus, TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac have all spoken out against this and vowed to fight it. Between those companies and their resellers, you probably have the vast majority of all customers of third party ISPs in Ontario/Quebec.

There are others (Velcom, for example) that I haven't seen responses from, but suspect they are also opposing this in league with TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20276091 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:08:48 EDT dreaming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/dreaming-20275965
Don't get me wrong, I believe that Bell and Rogers are both collusionists trying to screw everyone. I prefer living in the real world - too bad it sucks. ;)

said by pegsys :

They want deregulation?
Let's give'em what they want...
Full deregulation across the whole spectrum of
telecommunications....Broadband internet,satelitte internet
and television,cellphone etc...
Let the big boys come in from the US, Europe and Asia come play with them...And let the games begin.
Bell,Rogers and Videotron have been the big fish in a small
pond for way too long,let's see how fast they will cry uncle
against the big sharks our regulations have protected them
from for so long....

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/dreaming-20275965 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:45:12 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275933 Let's give'em what they want...
Full deregulation across the whole spectrum of
telecommunications....Broadband internet,satelitte internet
and television,cellphone etc...
Let the big boys come in from the US, Europe and Asia come play with them...And let the games begin.
Bell,Rogers and Videotron have been the big fish in a small
pond for way too long,let's see how fast they will cry uncle
against the big sharks our regulations have protected them
from for so long....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275933 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:39:52 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275859
People here who worked for an ISP other than Bell will know what I mean: new clients installations ending up without sync at the CO, existing long time customers suddently lose sync and following your ticket at wholesale they have the nerve to tell you the DSLAM is full and you'll have to re-open a ticket in a week in hope there'll be an empty room. Or a new customer is too far from the CO and they refuse to put him on the remote because he ain't Pathetico's... When a Bell technician visit is required, some techs have the guts to tell your customer something like "If you were with Pathetico, you wouldn't be experiencing this problem"... and I can go on and on with examples.

Well, Bell already seems to do a good job for 3rd party ISPs to hate them, as Bell knows that 3rd party CARES about their customer service, and Bell counts on the general public's ignorance of the way things works (Bell manipulates DSLAMs, long distance wires decrease sync rate, etc.) in order for the customer to want to drop their 3rd party ISP and hopefully get back with pathetico.

Adding throttle to everyone can be translated into a message: "Our vision of Internet usage is this way and we think you will want to throttle as well, we're now doing it to you for free".
90% of 3rd party ISPs probably said "fine with us" and it would have been difficult for Teksavvy to find partners in this battle.

By giving an ultimatum to all DSL ISPs at the same time is gonna help the cause of throttling against Bell, which I see as a plus.

I wanna take an example. In St-Hyacinthe (I think), customers have a choice of Maskatel or Bell as your local phone company. Maskatel has their own wire network, but 3rd party providers can't use their network for the internet.

I think that Bell's message is that right now there's competition only between Cable (Rogers/Videotron) and DSL (using Bell's copper wires and DSLAM) and no other serious competitor decided to build their own network and provide services like they are doing right now. But at the same time, people and the industry are complaining about the lack of alternatives in many domains (DSL that isn't using Bell's network, wireless not using Bell/Rogers/Telus, etc.).

In other words, they threaten 3rd Party ISPs to kick them out of the network (and out of business) if one of them doesn't stand out and do something different.

Questions:
- How much would it cost for Teksavvy to provide their own DSLAM at the CO in one area and serve their own customers? (and resell?) and will Bell allow their wire coppers being used with someone else's equipment? (DSLAM)

- How much would it cost for Teksavvy to deploy wires and fiber to end-customers?

Yeah, as much as I hate the beavers, an alternative is a necessity, but the way they're doing it (ultimatum) is a very bad way. "You hate us? Build your own network!" they are saying.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275859 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:25:04 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275773 said by thorne anon :

edugas has it right, both the 'last mile' and the long haul backbones need to be held as a public trust. That is the only way to 'level' the playing field for network access.
He has it half right - the last mile should be. Last mile is the connection from ISP to user. Whether that user is in vancouver or St. John and the ISP is in Medicine Hat.

Backbone, more typically, is the connection between the ISP and the Internet...and that is perfectly safe as it is, right now. There are *tons* of competitors in that market. Hence Teksavvy being able to offer the price they do offer on premium bandwidth.

I don't even want to think what 100GB of bandwidth would cost from Bell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275773 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:08:14 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275692
lets see....

I live in Ontario, if I want internet access my choices are;
capped and throttled Cable internet or,
capped and throttled Dsl from Bell or,
uncapped and un-throttled service through a small ISP.

I chose the third. There, I'm exerting market pressure, I'm spending my dollars how I see fit according to the things I believe. Only now it doesn't matter because Bell is throttling the third option too. If Bell is allowed to sell connectivity at 'market' rates they can price the third option so high that price alone will be a 'barrier to entry' for the majority of the market.

edugas has it right, both the 'last mile' and the long haul backbones need to be held as a public trust. That is the only way to 'level' the playing field for network access.

and the nerve to suggest that Small ISP are forever going to be parasites on Bells network is revolting. Stating that their not investing in there own networks is garbage! I would love to hear them come up with a business proposal for a company with 1/2 million in assets and market capital of ~100 000$ to present to a bank to get them to finance a 10 million dollar network expansion. There is a whole world of difference between 'not investing' and 'not being ABLE to invest']]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275692 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:54:24 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275682 said by Laidback:

Will this move not kill off VoIP also if you are not with bell?
VoIP - unless you have cable internet, local phone service from any carrier other then Bell (or possibly Bell and the cablecos assuming they get the phone service down coax) any service that requires backhaul down a phone line to you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275682 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:53:49 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275618 http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275618 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:40:55 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275426
From what I have noticed, the reason it isn't partially subsidised is probably due to the North American mindset of low taxes and no regulation (i.e. have market forces decide things), but that only works when the number of providers is large (say 10 or so), and not for an oligopoly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275426 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:04:24 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275419 said by Malovech:

Goddamn conservative governments!
I'm sorry but what the hell does the conservative government have to do with this? The last time I checked the CRTC worked separate of whatever government is in power.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275419 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:02:20 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275297
If their new court filing goes through, Bell would be allowed to charge each wholesaler what it wants to charge them. Price discrimination is in the works now.

If Bell wins, they can double the cost of what they charge teksavvy for access and triple the cost to the likes of acanac.

End result (even with sympatico split off) is a doubling (or more) of cost that YOU (all of us) will pay. And no one would be able to do a damn thing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/Re-Hands-off-our-network-Bell-tells-CRTC-20275297 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:36:40 EDT