Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC in TekSavvy http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20272672 en Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:55:27 EDT Wed, 02 Dec 2009 16:55:27 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20293887 anon :
said by jfmezei See Profile :

So why put a gag order on ISPs on an issue which is and needs to be public ?
You answered your own question. The CRTC doesn't have the rigorous "Civil Rules of Procedure" of the courts - Bell can and will use every possible PR trick to influence the outcome. The last thing we want is some ISP to mis-phrase something and give Bell the weapon to kill us.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20293887 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 21:02:09 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20293804 anon : Agree with the person who said before that the CRTC/Gov't should open the borders and allow foreign investors in and see how much Bell and Rogers like it...not only in terms of ISPs but also for TV and cell phones.
As it stands now Canada is a technological backwater in these areas in terms of pricing and choice.
I am all for allowing the market to regulate itself for the most part but only if the market is actually allowed to regulate itself and dictate price and this includes allowing foreign investors and entrepreneurs to pour their money and resources and competition into the Canadian market.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20293804 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 20:44:14 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20292008 jfmezei : >I agree Arbalister. It is all about public opinion. I never
>said otherwise.

Exactly. This is not a trial. There is no "everything you say from now on can be taken against you" type of thing. CAIP have taken statements from Bell from before the issue, and taken some from after it began. If Bell want to take statements made by Rocky before the issue arose, they can do it.

And since it was the CAIP who made the submission to the CRTC, then the ISPs should be free to continue their PR campaign to ensure politicians remain aware of the issue.

The CRTC will ask Bell to comment on the specific filing made by the CAIP. As long as what ISP's say does not contradict the CAIP statements, there is no reason to have a gag order.

Frankly, I think Rocky knows about the issue far more than the lawyer who crafted the wordy document, so I have no fear that Rocky would contradict anyone in this matter.

The CRTC isn't a court. What CAIP presented will stand on its own, and it won't be debated in a CRTC court with lawyers from both sides bringing in witnesses etc. If lucky, the CAIP will have one chance for rebuttal of Bell's expected wishy washy answer.

When you consider that Bell's answer to the CAIP letter will likely be some wishy washy dismissive letter using words to try to convince the CRTC that Bell should be allowed to mamage its networks the way it wants, the onus will be on the CRTC to make a decision.

And such a decision will be influenced a LOT by the then current public opinion/media coverage/politician pressure. So it is extremely important to keep the public debate up and continue to put pressure on policians so that the CRTC makes a decision against Bell.

The tariffs are public. The CRTC filing is public. And we want our government to be aware of the overall need for net neutrality, as well as this specific case of Bell abusing its monopoly power. So why put a gag order on ISPs on an issue which is and needs to be public ?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20292008 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 13:36:18 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291812 NiGHTS : I agree Arbalister. It is all about public opinion. I never said otherwise.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291812 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:58:15 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291762 Arbalister :
said by NiGHTS See Profile :

said by ultracat See Profile :

People, if you want corporate, switch back to Bell or Rogers!
Are you serious? That is quite the arrogant attitude. How far do you take this attitude? Do you also do away with lawyers because they are "corporate"? Bell has lots of bullets at their disposal, as should CAIP. CAIP and Teksavvy need to take it to the next level. This cannot be fought by a bunch of geeks on a dslreports forum, that will get written off as 5%.
Nights - trust me in this, I've been doing this for 12 years. CAIP and TSI, and little ISPs like mine, haven't got a prayer unless the public outrage continues. This whole throttling things - the fact that Bell swung their bat and connected not just with the indie ISPs that they've been getting away with screwing with for years, but also hitting the CBC, the Heritage Ministry, waking the Micheal Geist lion, hitting for a second time the customers they chased away - who are rightfully indignant that Bell has removed their right to choose better service...

*That* is what's going to win this issue. The groundswell of public opinion against Bell will carry the issue. The CRTC is famous for allowing the status quo to stand..."oh, Bell is doing it already, so we'll allow it...but they can't do *this* again in future..." - crap like that. CAIP can fight a holding action, they might even manage to get the caps lifted for competing ISPs...but for how long? The only way to make this *permanent* is for us to keep the pressure of public opinion firmly against Bell, and directly on top of our MP's and the CRTC. They work better when their jobs are on the line.

Some slick PR guy *aint* gonna sway the issue.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291762 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:43:11 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291607 NiGHTS :
said by ultracat See Profile :

People, if you want corporate, switch back to Bell or Rogers!
Are you serious? That is quite the arrogant attitude. How far do you take this attitude? Do you also do away with lawyers because they are "corporate"? Bell has lots of bullets at their disposal, as should CAIP. CAIP and Teksavvy need to take it to the next level. This cannot be fought by a bunch of geeks on a dslreports forum, that will get written off as 5%.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291607 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:10:20 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291580 ftp1020 :
said by ancodia See Profile :

I'm all for public awareness but spreading mis-information like this : "let everyone "know" that Deep Packet INSPECTION is looking at their private banking" doesnt help anyone. DPI in no way compromises the security of a SSL link.
Oh ... and "5% of users degrade the service for the 95%"? Bell is using professional liars and their media connections to distribute all kinds of half-truths. I say do the same with people whose eyes glaze over as quick as you can say "SSL". PR battles are all about public perception and have very little to do with truth and accuracy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291580 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 12:06:14 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291547 anon :
said by ftp1020 See Profile :

For the rest of us, however, the PR battle goes on
Precisely.

If WE say anything that is in error, it is vital that it cannot be ascribed back to the ISPs. So do not expect any "support" or "guidance" from them.

DO NOT LET the necessity for the ISPs to remain silent PREVENT YOU from speaking out LOUDLY to ANYBODY who will listen.

Even if you have to sit on them to make them pay attention. ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291547 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:57:37 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291540 ancodia : I'm all for public awareness but spreading mis-information like this : "let everyone "know" that Deep Packet INSPECTION is looking at their private banking" doesnt help anyone. DPI in no way compromises the security of a SSL link.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291540 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:56:08 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291485 ftp1020 :
said by jfmezei See Profile :

So I do not see why laywyers would instruct the Rocky's of the internet to clam up.
Because, like Bell's shareholder statement or Laszlo's comments elsewhere, any subsequent statement might be used by Bell in their defence. CAIP has used Bell's own statements made since the throttling started in their claims against Bell, and it would be foolish to give Bell the same opportunity.

For the ISPs, the PR battle is over and the legal battle has just begun - so let the lawyers do what they know best, in their own arena. For the rest of us, however, the PR battle goes on - let everyone "know" that Deep Packet INSPECTION is looking at their private banking; let everyone "know" that Bell is trying to censor parts of the internet; let everyone "know" that once Bell achieves total monopoly everyone's internet will double in price...

...and then let Bell squirm over the technical merits of such statements.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291485 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:45:53 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291419 jfmezei : >Agreed PR firms can go to hell ... all they do is sell lies.

You need to fight fire with fire. I think it is a big mistake for the Rockys of the internet community to "clam up" because this eliminates the PR weapon which is extremely needed at this point in time to keep the politician's focus on the issue. Politicians ride with the wind. The CRTC is influended by what directions politicians are riding in.

Bell's PR machien is strong and can set the wind's direction, especially if everyone else clams up.

Right now, the only thing we, lowly peole, know is that the CIAP says it has submitted a document to the CRTC.

These documents become OFFICIALLY public as soon as they are posted on the CRTC web site. So I do not see why laywyers would instruct the Rocky's of the internet to clam up. This is not a murder trial with a jury being held in private chambers. This is a public debate with our government making a decision on actions taken by Bell.

(I use "Rocky" in this message as a generic name for any ISP owner).

I say thins because the CAIP appears to be a virtual organisation without a working telephone number, so the laxy/lemming media will not go through hoops and loops to try to get the ISP's side of the story if they can't easily reach the CIAP. "The CAIP did not immediatly return our calls" or "The CIAP could not immediatly be reached". (whenever you hear the word "immediatly" in here, it means that the persons they tried to reach didn't call back within 5 minutes. And since rthe CAIP main telephone number in Ottawa doesn't even have an answering machine, the media won't be able to get in touch with anyone there to call them back.

Without a PR effort, it means that the legal arguments will have to be far more potent to force the CRTC to go against the PR winds. It is a real shame because until the ISPs were ordered to clam up, they were starting to shift the win in their direction. But now it will all go back to Bell's direction.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20291419 Sun, 06 Apr 2008 11:31:04 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20290097 Omr : Agreed PR firms can go to hell ... all they do is sell lies. A truely worthy product can sell itself, a horrible service/ product needs a PR team and thats what distinguishes a class act from an imposter.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20290097 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:43:01 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20290027 ultracat :
said by NiGHTS See Profile :

Agreed, having a dedicated and skilled PR person who is truly educated on this subject is an excellent idea. Bell has an army of lobbyists and PR people who are masters at spin. PR is extremely important to your cause, and you don't want to spread yourself too thin.
Are you guys joking? You know this whole thing was cracked wide open on this forum by the customers right? It's the customers that are pushing this issue through this forum and with the media. Why? Because Rocky and the gang are real people, running a small business, that we can all relate to. IMO the LAST thing TSI should do is hire some slick PR firm and tuck Rocky and the like away in a corner somewhere never to be heard from again. Rocky's been doing an awesome job, and I think the public is WAY more interested in getting behind the little guy to fight off the big bully. People, if you want corporate, switch back to Bell or Rogers!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20290027 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 23:22:06 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20289395 sbrook : There are ridiculously few of those around.

Pulse to Touch Tone is now done electronically and generates DTMF tones anyway. A lot of people with dial lines can still use Touch Tone!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20289395 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:59:44 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20289011 anon :
Ever wonder why you still pay Bell $2.95 per month for touchtone phone service?

Thirty+ years ago when touchtone was first being rolled out Bell claimed they needed the then $0.75 per month (or whatever was allowed) in order to buy the equipment that could support touchtone and that the only way to make that happen is if there was a charge for it.

Today the now $2.95 (or whatever it is embedded in your bill) is being used - as Bell would like you to believe -- to subsidize the few thousand remaining customers using rotary phone service. Those electomechanical switches from the 1950's take a lot of maintenance.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20289011 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 19:16:57 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20288151 Stewy :
said by jfmezei See Profile :

One must ask the question: What is **REALLY** going on at Bell ?
I've been trying to ask that myself.

If anyone believes that this is to help manage the network, they have to get their heads examined.

You don't need to see the virus to know that you have a cold. The same applies here, this is simply punishment for those doing it better than bell.

On top of that I'm willing to bet the house that in the very near future sympatico users are going to see a P2P improvement in their service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20288151 Sat, 05 Apr 2008 15:32:33 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20280223 anon :
said by DarkStar33 See Profile :

Look at them today. They grew there business by innovation. They killed the same businesses that laughed at them at first.
Then BCE could use a self-defense plea...LOL
Dinosaurs have no place in the new millenium anyway...
Where's my rifle?(figuratively)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20280223 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:33:00 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20280219 derekm :
said by DarkStar33 See Profile :

Microsoft, Google and Walmart and "foreign" car manufacturer all started off as small time operations.

Look at them today. They grew there business by innovation. They killed the same businesses that laughed at them at first.
Microsoft grew their business by years of illegal anti-competitive practices. Same as Bell.

They started off small, granted... But they are finishing big.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20280219 Fri, 04 Apr 2008 00:31:52 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20279923 DarkStar33 : Thats part of the overall problem, by preventing small companies from growing where is our next generation of corporations?

Microsoft, Google and Walmart and "foreign" car manufacturer all started off as small time operations.

Look at them today. They grew there business by innovation. They killed the same businesses that laughed at them at first.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20279923 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 23:27:31 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20278611 En Enfer :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

That list includes ISPs that:

1) Are very small
2) Are resellers of a larger ISP (Montreal-DSL resells TekSavvy).

Eliminate those from the list in those two categories
Let me remind you that all ISPs do start very small. I found my own notes when I was ISP shopping back in 2001. I wrote that Teksavvy was 30$ with a cap and was a reseller of "1st Access" which itself was 27$ + cap. Obviously, things changed or maybe I was in error back then...

My point being, with those facts, if Bell's stunt would happened 6 years ago, it's like saying "shut up Teksavvy, you're too small, you don't have enough users to give your opinion". I don't think it's fair.

In fact, 3rd party DSL providers need to unite forces somehow to face the beavers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20278611 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 19:48:31 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277277 jkajfes : I'm waiting for the "debt retirement" charge to appear on my Bell and Rogers bills... ala... hydro bill...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277277 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:51:00 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277268 Guspaz : That list includes ISPs that:

1) Are very small
2) Are resellers of a larger ISP (Montreal-DSL resells TekSavvy).

Eliminate those from the list in those two categories, and then look at the biggest few, and I think you'll see that the ISPs that represent most of the customers are indeed working on this issue.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277268 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:49:03 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277242 En Enfer :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

said by En Enfer See Profile :

90% of 3rd party ISPs probably said "fine with us" and it would have been difficult for Teksavvy to find partners in this battle.
Sorry, not buying it. Primus, TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac have all spoken out against this and vowed to fight it. Between those companies and their resellers, you probably have the vast majority of all customers of third party ISPs in Ontario/Quebec.

There are others (Velcom, for example) that I haven't seen responses from, but suspect they are also opposing this in league with TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac.
I went to »www.canadianisp.com and I see like a hundred different ISPs listed there just for DSL service in big cities like TO and MTL at various prices (remember those other 3rd party ISPs at 35$-40$-45/month with ridiculously low monthly caps?). (And yes, a few of them are resellers)...

Anyways, it's not because they're not big names that their voice can't be heard. I know a few of them who are calling their customer exceeding 50Gb in a month, and throttling is a solution for them or a relieve concerning "abusing" customers...

Honestly, I think that if an ISP wants to throttle their clients (as their "business model"), they better off doing it by themselves, not by beavers.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277242 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:42:44 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277205 jkajfes : we're way past "before"...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277205 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:37:38 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277172 NiGHTS : With Net Neutrality legislation and with competition, all this goes away.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277172 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:31:47 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277151 jkajfes : gheeze let's try that with cable... I'll supply the pills to calm Ted down?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277151 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:29:37 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277142 jkajfes : he's probably using a couple soup cans and string with one long and two short rings... why the heck would Princess I mean Prentice be worried about the net?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20277142 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 15:27:08 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276942 NiGHTS : Agreed, having a dedicated and skilled PR person who is truly educated on this subject is an excellent idea. Bell has an army of lobbyists and PR people who are masters at spin. PR is extremely important to your cause, and you don't want to spread yourself too thin.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276942 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:46:11 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276923 anon : And they should clam up.
Bell has already given them all the ammo
they need to fire back...
Any discussions on these boards dealing with their
strategies are being viewed by Bell trolls and they are reporting back to their masters.
Propositions on other threads in these forums on how to bypass the throttle and how to cripple Sympatico through exploits will also be used by their Legal Team to show how these independant ISPs are harboring hackers and pirates...
(We know it is not the case but they will argue it)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276923 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:42:57 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276825 eots : Hiring a PR person to represent the position of the ISP's is an excellent idea. You don't see any of the Bell exec's speaking to the media.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276825 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:23:24 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276747 justsometech : Well per WTO agreements, Canada should be a lot more open, not just on telecomm, but Banking and other industries, yet we continue to be so, for some good reason, others not so good.

And hey, if teksavvy is clamming up for legal reasons thats good, but still hiring a PR person to get a better version across to public/media would be nice as well]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276747 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 14:09:41 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276512 sbrook : If they force the split of Bell, you can be certain that within a few years, its "Terminator" abilities will stir, remove the regulatory conditions of the split and then it will reassemble itself and we'll be right back where we started.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276512 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:31:35 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276489 jerrycan : Interesting take by Bell on the matter. They best be careful as the out come might split Bell ala Ontario Hydro. One "Bell" that is responsible for hardwiring and "last mile" sorts of things, and another Bell for everything else. Traditionaly, when it was just one company, the losses it would take in resdential wiring would be made up on the backend with services. A new Bell, responsible for "last mile wiring" would deal with "Service" Bell and other Service providers (ISPs, phone COs, etc.) Bell statements about ignore the fact that NO-ONE could or would compete against them hard wiring, truck and manpower service. They're already established. This is why the CRTC's role in this is even more important.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276489 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 13:28:46 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276333 cacruden :
said by pegsys :

They want deregulation?
Let's give'em what they want...
Full deregulation across the whole spectrum of
telecommunications....Broadband internet,satelitte internet
and television,cellphone etc...
Let the big boys come in from the US, Europe and Asia come play with them...And let the games begin.
Bell,Rogers and Videotron have been the big fish in a small
pond for way too long,let's see how fast they will cry uncle
against the big sharks our regulations have protected them
from for so long....
Well, I all for deregulating TV and letting Dish/DirectTV in to compete in Canada. Millions of Canadians have been harassed about pointing their dish at the wrong satellite.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276333 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:58:40 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276301 iconfat :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

Paul from Acanac actually came right out and said that their lawyer (who we know is being shared by the other ISPs since this is a joint action) told them to clam up. I'm not just speculating on this ;)
In any type of litigation, whatever the party says can be used on record to hurt their case.
Its actually good to see that Teksavvy is staying mum on more than a few issues. We do have a real case here and the ISPs dont want to jeopardize their position. (Which I believe is a strong one)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276301 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:52:06 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276271 Guspaz : Paul from Acanac actually came right out and said that their lawyer (who we know is being shared by the other ISPs since this is a joint action) told them to clam up. I'm not just speculating on this ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276271 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:45:54 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276217 alekssavvy :
said by Guspaz See Profile :

said by justsometech See Profile :

Absolutely, they are definitely NOT fine with this. What worries me is that, with all of our (and my) own complaining about the issue, it got mentioned in parliament debate within a week or so? I am pretty impressed by this.

What i am not impressed with is the lack of voracity that other ISP's, Teksavvy included, have shown. I would expect that these small business owners, who employee people from their perspective areas, would be setting up meetings with their prospective MP's and MPP's, detailing lawyers briefs, and movign the issue forward with the CRTC and comp. bureau (since in the end it is their business being affected).

I feel that it mostly a lot of out spoken public members and not enough of the ISP's that are doing the talking.
I hope it is just because they are finalizing their agreements with each other on how to best dela with the situation...
They ARE doing exactly that, but their lawyer told them to clam up, so they're keeping quiet for now. Their lack of info on the issue doesn't represent lack of action.
i definitely noticed that by listening to rocky's call with the one radio station. like he was afraid to present his position and had to beat around the bush. the presenter was the one that really said what rocky would not]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276217 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:35:35 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276181 Guspaz :
said by justsometech See Profile :

Absolutely, they are definitely NOT fine with this. What worries me is that, with all of our (and my) own complaining about the issue, it got mentioned in parliament debate within a week or so? I am pretty impressed by this.

What i am not impressed with is the lack of voracity that other ISP's, Teksavvy included, have shown. I would expect that these small business owners, who employee people from their perspective areas, would be setting up meetings with their prospective MP's and MPP's, detailing lawyers briefs, and movign the issue forward with the CRTC and comp. bureau (since in the end it is their business being affected).

I feel that it mostly a lot of out spoken public members and not enough of the ISP's that are doing the talking.
I hope it is just because they are finalizing their agreements with each other on how to best dela with the situation...
They ARE doing exactly that, but their lawyer told them to clam up, so they're keeping quiet for now. Their lack of info on the issue doesn't represent lack of action.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276181 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:29:34 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276171 justsometech : Absolutely, they are definitely NOT fine with this. What worries me is that, with all of our (and my) own complaining about the issue, it got mentioned in parliament debate within a week or so? I am pretty impressed by this.

What i am not impressed with is the lack of voracity that other ISP's, Teksavvy included, have shown. I would expect that these small business owners, who employee people from their perspective areas, would be setting up meetings with their prospective MP's and MPP's, detailing lawyers briefs, and movign the issue forward with the CRTC and comp. bureau (since in the end it is their business being affected).

I feel that it mostly a lot of out spoken public members and not enough of the ISP's that are doing the talking.
I hope it is just because they are finalizing their agreements with each other on how to best dela with the situation...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276171 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:28:06 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276091 Guspaz :
said by En Enfer See Profile :

90% of 3rd party ISPs probably said "fine with us" and it would have been difficult for Teksavvy to find partners in this battle.
Sorry, not buying it. Primus, TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac have all spoken out against this and vowed to fight it. Between those companies and their resellers, you probably have the vast majority of all customers of third party ISPs in Ontario/Quebec.

There are others (Velcom, for example) that I haven't seen responses from, but suspect they are also opposing this in league with TekSavvy, eBox, and Acanac.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20276091 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 12:08:48 EDT dreaming http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275965 Gokuu : With Canada's draconian regulations on foreign ownership combined with rediculous tax regime, nobody is gonna come to Canada - a small and insignificant marketplace.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that Bell and Rogers are both collusionists trying to screw everyone. I prefer living in the real world - too bad it sucks. ;)

said by pegsys :

They want deregulation?
Let's give'em what they want...
Full deregulation across the whole spectrum of
telecommunications....Broadband internet,satelitte internet
and television,cellphone etc...
Let the big boys come in from the US, Europe and Asia come play with them...And let the games begin.
Bell,Rogers and Videotron have been the big fish in a small
pond for way too long,let's see how fast they will cry uncle
against the big sharks our regulations have protected them
from for so long....
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275965 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:45:12 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275933 anon : They want deregulation?
Let's give'em what they want...
Full deregulation across the whole spectrum of
telecommunications....Broadband internet,satelitte internet
and television,cellphone etc...
Let the big boys come in from the US, Europe and Asia come play with them...And let the games begin.
Bell,Rogers and Videotron have been the big fish in a small
pond for way too long,let's see how fast they will cry uncle
against the big sharks our regulations have protected them
from for so long....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275933 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:39:52 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275859 En Enfer : I've read almost all your replies (yeah, took some time), and as bad as Bell's plan looks, it has a little good in it.

People here who worked for an ISP other than Bell will know what I mean: new clients installations ending up without sync at the CO, existing long time customers suddently lose sync and following your ticket at wholesale they have the nerve to tell you the DSLAM is full and you'll have to re-open a ticket in a week in hope there'll be an empty room. Or a new customer is too far from the CO and they refuse to put him on the remote because he ain't Pathetico's... When a Bell technician visit is required, some techs have the guts to tell your customer something like "If you were with Pathetico, you wouldn't be experiencing this problem"... and I can go on and on with examples.

Well, Bell already seems to do a good job for 3rd party ISPs to hate them, as Bell knows that 3rd party CARES about their customer service, and Bell counts on the general public's ignorance of the way things works (Bell manipulates DSLAMs, long distance wires decrease sync rate, etc.) in order for the customer to want to drop their 3rd party ISP and hopefully get back with pathetico.

Adding throttle to everyone can be translated into a message: "Our vision of Internet usage is this way and we think you will want to throttle as well, we're now doing it to you for free".
90% of 3rd party ISPs probably said "fine with us" and it would have been difficult for Teksavvy to find partners in this battle.

By giving an ultimatum to all DSL ISPs at the same time is gonna help the cause of throttling against Bell, which I see as a plus.

I wanna take an example. In St-Hyacinthe (I think), customers have a choice of Maskatel or Bell as your local phone company. Maskatel has their own wire network, but 3rd party providers can't use their network for the internet.

I think that Bell's message is that right now there's competition only between Cable (Rogers/Videotron) and DSL (using Bell's copper wires and DSLAM) and no other serious competitor decided to build their own network and provide services like they are doing right now. But at the same time, people and the industry are complaining about the lack of alternatives in many domains (DSL that isn't using Bell's network, wireless not using Bell/Rogers/Telus, etc.).

In other words, they threaten 3rd Party ISPs to kick them out of the network (and out of business) if one of them doesn't stand out and do something different.

Questions:
- How much would it cost for Teksavvy to provide their own DSLAM at the CO in one area and serve their own customers? (and resell?) and will Bell allow their wire coppers being used with someone else's equipment? (DSLAM)

- How much would it cost for Teksavvy to deploy wires and fiber to end-customers?

Yeah, as much as I hate the beavers, an alternative is a necessity, but the way they're doing it (ultimatum) is a very bad way. "You hate us? Build your own network!" they are saying.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275859 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:25:04 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275773 Arbalister :
said by thorne anon :

edugas has it right, both the 'last mile' and the long haul backbones need to be held as a public trust. That is the only way to 'level' the playing field for network access.
He has it half right - the last mile should be. Last mile is the connection from ISP to user. Whether that user is in vancouver or St. John and the ISP is in Medicine Hat.

Backbone, more typically, is the connection between the ISP and the Internet...and that is perfectly safe as it is, right now. There are *tons* of competitors in that market. Hence Teksavvy being able to offer the price they do offer on premium bandwidth.

I don't even want to think what 100GB of bandwidth would cost from Bell.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275773 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 11:08:14 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275692 anon : I love how both the gov't and bell are talking about market pressure and ignoring Bell's actions that negate the markets ability to put pressure on them

lets see....

I live in Ontario, if I want internet access my choices are;
capped and throttled Cable internet or,
capped and throttled Dsl from Bell or,
uncapped and un-throttled service through a small ISP.

I chose the third. There, I'm exerting market pressure, I'm spending my dollars how I see fit according to the things I believe. Only now it doesn't matter because Bell is throttling the third option too. If Bell is allowed to sell connectivity at 'market' rates they can price the third option so high that price alone will be a 'barrier to entry' for the majority of the market.

edugas has it right, both the 'last mile' and the long haul backbones need to be held as a public trust. That is the only way to 'level' the playing field for network access.

and the nerve to suggest that Small ISP are forever going to be parasites on Bells network is revolting. Stating that their not investing in there own networks is garbage! I would love to hear them come up with a business proposal for a company with 1/2 million in assets and market capital of ~100 000$ to present to a bank to get them to finance a 10 million dollar network expansion. There is a whole world of difference between 'not investing' and 'not being ABLE to invest']]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275692 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:54:24 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275682 Arbalister :
said by Laidback See Profile :

Will this move not kill off VoIP also if you are not with bell?
VoIP - unless you have cable internet, local phone service from any carrier other then Bell (or possibly Bell and the cablecos assuming they get the phone service down coax) any service that requires backhaul down a phone line to you.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275682 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:53:49 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275618 Laidback : Will this move not kill off VoIP also if you are not with bell?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275618 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:40:55 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275426 Black Moon : One thing that I cannot understand is in a country as vast as this, where the distances between towns is measured in tens or hundreds of kilometres, is telelcommunications not partially subsidised?

From what I have noticed, the reason it isn't partially subsidised is probably due to the North American mindset of low taxes and no regulation (i.e. have market forces decide things), but that only works when the number of providers is large (say 10 or so), and not for an oligopoly.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275426 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:04:24 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275419 Shark_615 :
said by Malovech See Profile :

Goddamn conservative governments!
I'm sorry but what the hell does the conservative government have to do with this? The last time I checked the CRTC worked separate of whatever government is in power.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275419 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 10:02:20 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275297 anon : That would do nothing Guspaz.

If their new court filing goes through, Bell would be allowed to charge each wholesaler what it wants to charge them. Price discrimination is in the works now.

If Bell wins, they can double the cost of what they charge teksavvy for access and triple the cost to the likes of acanac.

End result (even with sympatico split off) is a doubling (or more) of cost that YOU (all of us) will pay. And no one would be able to do a damn thing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275297 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:36:40 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275247 Guspaz : I'm really starting to think that splitting up Bell is the only option. Break Sympatico off and mandate that Bell not be permitted to roll out their own consumer internet services. Make Sympatico into a wholesaler in name *AND* in fact. That'd pretty much solve any issues about anti-competitive practices. Although it wouldn't necessarily get them to stop throttling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275247 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:26:13 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275135 anon : Or Bell is trying to move as fast as possible on this while the leaders like prentice remain dumb on the issue at hand and before more of the public realize this will double (or more) their costs of internet. Gone would be the affordable teksavvy serivce or acanac type services.

this one says it good: »Re: Charlie Angus, an Honourable man. VIDEO OF GOVERNMENT DEBATE]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275135 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 09:05:02 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275080 alphaz18 : hmm i think bells master plan is working.. they know this is obviously going to fail, but. its creating a huge commotion.. when the dust settles everyone will have forgotten about the throttling issue....
problem solved.... ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275080 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:53:51 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275016 climber : that is what I read too. Wasn't the copper infrastructure subsidized by the taxpayer OH so long ago..yet bell says that it is theirs?!Maybe they should pay the government back at todays dollars in order to say that..if not then shut up aqnd let other play too!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20275016 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:36:41 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274974 edugas : Hands off our copper, population tells Bell.

Our taxes paid for these.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274974 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:24:54 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274939 mr_hexen : Jim Prentice: Prentice.J@parl.gc.ca

Stephen Harper: Harper.S@parl.gc.ca

;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274939 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 08:15:09 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274798 InvalidError :
said by trog See Profile :

Surely the issue is not so much the backbone; rather the issue is the last-mile; the connection to the homes. For a firm like TSI (or even a consortium of ISPs) to attempt the last mile connection would be prohibitively expensive.
One cannot connect the last mile to a customer before deploying the backbone that will connect the local spines feeding the neighborhoods. Running the backbone fiber requires more man-hours and equipment than running each individual fiber from the nearest switch for individual subscribers afterwards. Yes, it would be expensive - this is why I suggested doing it as a COOP project funded by people and independent ISPs.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274798 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 07:17:34 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274459 Arbalister : Here's my most recent letter, this one to Prentice.

-----------------------------
Minister Prentice,

I am deeply concerned about Bell Canada’s recent announcement that it will make its practice of throttling wholesale customers access to their last mile network facilites official starting April 7.

In question period today, you answered that the Canadian government does not regulate the internet. This is true. I was one of the respondants to the CRTC's request for comment on that subject several years ago. I felt then as I do now - the internet should not be interfered with by outside parties.

All of that, however, is irrelevant to the situation. You, sir, need to look into what is actually happening - Bell is *not* throttling the internet. What Bell's changes actually affect is the "backhaul" from an ISP's facilities to the end user premises. This is a tariffed service, regulated by the CRTC, and newly classified essential as of Telecom Decision CRTC 2008-17, and detailed in this press release: »www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/NEWS/RELEASES···0303.htm.

I manage a small local ISP - this means that I've been forced to buy essential services from a competitor for the last 10+ years since the creation of Sympatico - something that should never have been allowed. Bell has manuevered through several anti-competetive situations since then, all of them to the detriment of independant ISPs. This is the one they got caught at.

Bell is *also* violating section 61 of the Competition Act which states that a company that is the sole supplier of a product or service that is sold by a competitor (often for a lower price), can not use any form of coersion to cause that competitor to alter their pricing. By significantly crippling the independant ISP's access to their end user, via Bell's internal ATM network - as I said, a tariffed and regulated service - Bell is reducing the value of our product, to the consumer. And they are doing so with full knowledge of that fact: Note page 42 of their 2007 stockholders report which states:

"With the rapid growth in video and other bandwidth intensive
applications on the Internet, we may need to
incur significant capital expenditures to provide additional
capacity on our Internet network. We may not
be able to recover these costs from customers due to
competitors’ short term pricing of comparable Internet
services. There is also a risk that our efforts to optimize
network performance, as a result of significantly increasing
broadband demand, through paced FTTN roll-out,
traffic management and rate plan changes, could be
unsuccessful and result in an increase in our Internet
subscriber churn rate beyond our current expectations
thereby adversely affecting achievement of our expected
number of Internet subscribers in 2008."

It states, right there, that Bell does not expect to be able to recover costs of increasing capacity on their internal network, because of the short term pricing of their competitors. It states that if they start to throttle - manage traffic - they will increase their churn rate (rate at which they lose customers) to competitors. Bell has told their stockholders that they can *not* compete on price, with independant ISP's such as Teksavvy, and my own Merge Internet. Two weeks after that report comes out, Bell starts to throttle the last mile connection between independant ISP's and their customers. Note, again, that this throttling has no effect at all on *internet* traffic - there are 2 networks involved. Bell's private network between customer premises and their ISPs, and the internet. The first is regulated by the CRTC and the second is not.

The way this works is that companies like Teksavvy buy a large chunk of Bell's private network. This allows them to request Bell to set up a direct network connection between an end users address, and the ISP. In the pre-highspeed days, this would be a telephone line. Any requests for internet data the end users sends travels along that connection to the ISP. The ISP's servers go out onto the internet via a "backbone" connection that the ISP has also purchased, from one or several providers of *internet* connectivity, fetch that data and return it to the customer down the Bell connection. Sympatico is perfectly free to throttle internet traffic from the internet to their end users. Any ISP is, though most feel that this traffic should be handled as per the assorted privacy laws. What *Bell* is *not* free to do is to mess with data travelling from the ISP to the End User, down CRTC regulated essential services, nor are they allowed to artificially degrade that service to competitors, to match the degraded service they choose to supply their own paying customers. It is quite clear - especially in light of Bell's application today to appeal the March 3rd CRTC ruling that forces them to sell this last mile connectivity to the Independant ISPs - that Bell has only taken these steps to avoid the cost of upgrading the service they *must* sell to competitors, and to attempt to minimize their own customer churn by forcing a degradation of service on *all* DSL users in their service area.

Thank you for your time.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274459 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:49:28 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274412 Name96 : It's nearly impossible to convince Alberta conservatives that government intervention into what they view as the commercial sphere is desirable or necessary. Economic laissez-faire is such a fundamental part of their ideology that it'd be easier to convince them the sky is green than to convince them to interfere with the "free" "market." The elected portion of the government will not move on this issue unless subject to extreme pressure on the scale that could cost them an election. I don't see people getting that upset about Internet access just yet.

In the event neither the CRTC or the courts move against Bell's apparent efforts to crush third party ISPs, I fear the best we can hope to accomplish through the elected government is to fight a holding action until a more favorable government is returned to office.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274412 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:20:53 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274367 alekssavvy : as much as i hate bell i do believe the government should stay out of this. i would much rather see some innovation and progress than the same old inferior technologies. short term pain for long term gain please.

many of the problems we have with wireless and broadband in this country are a result of the government stepping in way too much. just look at the mess its created by banning foreign competition (big companies with big money willing to invest and compete). cable and telephone are only two ways to transfer data.

stop bickering and begging for government help and do something about it. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274367 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 02:01:49 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274353 derekm :
said by NiGHTS See Profile :

»www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/···gy/home/
Aren't journalists supposed to know how to spell? WTF is throddle? Ha!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274353 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:54:14 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274349 jfmezei : The big question is whether the CRTC feels pressure from opposition parties, of if they only feel it from the party in power.

If the CRTC only feels pressure from party in power, then it is the reform party members that need to be convinced of this issue.

However, it is important to get the opposition parties involved in this because they will force Reform to also get involved.

It is a shame though that the Liberal party is without a leader and has been rendered totally useless, unable to call an election because they know they would be decimated, so they end up supporting Reform.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274349 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:54:07 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274310 Name96 : It's a very good idea to write letters to opposition members like Charlie Angus and members of the various parties' shadow cabinets[1]. Put together all the facts in layman's terms and make a case that Prentice's misunderstanding makes him unfit to hold his post.

There is nothing opposition parties like more than calling out a government minister for ignorance, ineptitude or incompetence. Accusations of incompetence also attract a lot of media attention, which is both essential to motivate the government and keeps an uncomfortable spotlight on Bell.

[1] An explanation is too long to put here. Google it.
--
Coridon Henshaw -=- »www.talisiorder.ca]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274310 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:38:11 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274220 Arbalister : Nice letter...I think I'll be writing him too...and since I've heard not one peep out of my Tory local MP, I'll probably write Charlie too.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274220 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:11:27 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274211 Arbalister :
said by ftp1020 See Profile :

And as we're now finding out, last-mile internet access is part of that same blue sky of unlimited profitability and zero regulation.
No, it's not. Thats what Bell is attempting to appeal, the CRTC decision that makes last mile an essential service that they have no choice but to sell to the Indies for cost + 15%. Period. It's not, as Prentice said "unregulated internet" that is the issue here, it's *regulated* last mile connectivity. By saying "oh, the CRTC doesn't regulate the Internet" as if that was even pertinent to the discussion, he just proved he has no idea what he's talking about. We're talking about Bell knowingly reneging on require, regulated, tariffed services.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274211 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 01:09:13 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274167 derekm :
said by justsometech See Profile :

»www.charlieangus.net/houseitem.p···c91a5df0

question period... in question
More letters!

Minister Prentice,

I have heard your rebuttal to the points raised by NDP member Charlie Angus in the house today.

You answer to his question was:

"..the Internet is not regulated in Canada..."

What the member Charlie Angus was referring to was the service *that is* regulated by the CRTC: Telecom Decision CRTC 2008-17.

*This is not Internet service.*

Bell Canada is throttling access from my home to my (third-party) ISP. This is not part of Internet traffic.

My ISP is leasing the high speed lines from Bell, who are required by the CRTC to provide this line to them. The ISP in turn, purchases Internet access from companies other than Bell, and transmits it down my high speed line.

By reducing the functionality of these high speed lines, Bell is eliminating a service differentiator for these third-party ISPs, to their direct benefit. This is what the minister was referring to by "... a few large players being able to squeeze out competition ..." This is a point that these independent ISPs are relying on.

It is a complicated matter, and I ask that you take a good, hard look at all of the issues at involved. With regard to Canada's Economic Growth and Long-Term Prosperity, we require competition in the telecom market.

Do you have any intention to inform yourself on *exactly* what the current situation is, before making a decision on it?

Sincere Thanks,
...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274167 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:53:44 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274106 Name96 : Bell's basic argument is that there are so many competitors out there that Bell should be able to arbitrarily wipe most of them out. That kind of thinking makes sense in the boardroom and among the kind of people who comprise Canada's New Government, but it's not going to hold much water in the courts.

Ironically, Bell's imposition of traffic filtering could count against their case to truncate the CRTC's authority. A company that already engages in anti-competitive behavior in a regulated environment can't make a strong case that it will behave itself in a deregulated environment.
--
Coridon Henshaw -=- »www.talisiorder.ca]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274106 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:39:50 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274078 Pocky : I'm writting to the prime minister, if Jim Prentice can't do his job and sits idly on his hands then he should be replaced with someone who will do their job.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274078 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:33:19 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274052 ftp1020 :
said by trog See Profile :

Surely the issue is not so much the backbone; rather the issue is the last-mile; the connection to the homes. For a firm like TSI (or even a consortium of ISPs) to attempt the last mile connection would be prohibitively expensive.
It's not expensive, it's impossible. Do you think any old company can string their wires on telephone poles or run fibre through underground pipes? For this very reason, monopoly status was accepted for telcos and cablecos both, and the so-called price was tariffs and regulation. In reality, though, all it has really meant is that in exchange for no competition, the telcos and cablecos cannot arbitrarily increase the price of basic services (dial tone or the first 30 TV channels) without government consent.

When it comes to "extra, non-essentials" liked tiered cable channels or calling features, the sky's the limit, baby. And as we're now finding out, last-mile internet access is part of that same blue sky of unlimited profitability and zero regulation.

Think of this: Teksavvy and everyone who works for them somehow exist between the $20 tariff and the $30 they charge for their internet service. Meanwhile, Bell has the advantage of economies of scale (meaning their marginal costs, ie. the cost of adding one more customer to their system is less), and also the cost advantage of outsourcing telephone support. In other words, Teksavvy's operating costs (per customer) are actually higher than Bell's.

With quite literally every variable tilted in their favour, Bell still feels the need to strangle their tiny competitors. In the past, Rocky "played nice" with Bell in the hope that their collective greed would be constrained. His mistake was assuming that he was dealing with a human being who would at least recognize his sense of fair play. He's since discovered that human beings might work for Bell, but that it is still a corporation with all the institutional instincts of any large corporation: callous unconcern for the feelings of others, incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, reckless disregard for the safety of others, deceitfulness (repeated lying to and deceiving of others for profit), incapacity to experience guilt and failure to conform to the social norms with respect to lawful behaviors.

If you were to look in the DSM-IV to describe this behaviour in an individual, you would find only one definition: psychopathy.

So, all of you going on about this being "unfair" or "illegal" ... remember what you are dealing with here.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20274052 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:27:56 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273938 trog :
said by InvalidError See Profile :

said by Arbalister See Profile :

No, if Bell somehow manages to win their appeal, you will have *no* choice. Cable or Bell. Period. Independant ISPs will be finished.
Quite true. And if that happens, there will be no chance in hell that cable and Bell will maintain decent pricing levels. If that happened, it would be about time people and independant ISPs started funding a COOP fiber backbone.
Surely the issue is not so much the backbone; rather the issue is the last-mile; the connection to the homes. For a firm like TSI (or even a consortium of ISPs) to attempt the last mile connection would be prohibitively expensive.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273938 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:04:02 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273937 sMURF : Wow, they're out of control now. Bell needs to be destroyed before they fuck everything up.
--
Bell sucks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273937 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:04:00 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273923 Turbinator : Seems very appropriate;



As long as they are in power, nothing will happen.
I can never bring myself to understand why people voted in our very own Bush of Canada.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273923 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:01:36 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273922 anon :
quote:
Quite true. And if that happens, there will be no chance in hell that cable and Bell will maintain decent pricing levels. If that happened, it would be about time people and independant ISPs started funding a COOP fiber backbone.


That would be really good. A brand new major corporation with a chance for consumer ethics.

I'd sure love to work in the marketing deparment in such a company and help develop it in a consumer oriented manner. :D :D Now thats my dream job!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273922 Thu, 03 Apr 2008 00:01:25 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273854 InvalidError :
said by Arbalister See Profile :

No, if Bell somehow manages to win their appeal, you will have *no* choice. Cable or Bell. Period. Independant ISPs will be finished.
Quite true. And if that happens, there will be no chance in hell that cable and Bell will maintain decent pricing levels. If that happened, it would be about time people and independant ISPs started funding a COOP fiber backbone.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273854 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:49:25 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273785 Omr : That is it, been a lifelong Liberal ... now my allegiance has ultimately shifted towards NDP. That Jim Prentice guy got owned, and what is up with the consumer taking it up with the ISP none-sense. I clearly am not a person Bell will listen to, the Bells and Rogers clearly showed me that they didn't want me as there customer (I know what I pay for, and every time they took away a feature and yet raised prices I knew I was being pushed off a cliff unwillingly). I find a service that is impeccable, that treated me as worthy client "VIP ;) ", told the "TRUTH", compromised and communicated with it's client base, and only asked of me to pay my monthly and bring a couple of people on board. The cartel (Rogers and Bell in cahoots) slap me in the face again with there rhetoric.

Jim Prentice says we have a Robust internet, is he on crack? Bell is saying there hardware is congested, they are peeling back on there ability to deliver, and jacking up the prices. Also come on, when someone was on Sympatico (I'm a former Rogers customer) and was told they use excessive Bandwidth, they weren't told you congest our hardware ... now that they sold us on the idea of caps, they want the idea of throttling to also become entrenched ... piss off is all I have to say. They want to become the sole gatekeepers of the net in Canada ... I think it's time to let the American congolomerates loose in Canada, see what Bell/ Rogers do when they start facing companies with even bigger wallets.

I'm so dissappointed at this governments reaction to this issue. They're waiting to see this play itself out? Are you mad? The only thing that'll happen if this is played out is that Bell with it's lawyers and Laszlow's will squish the little guy. Damn it, who's Harper waiting for ... a call from Bush to tell him to react? I pay taxes for this guy to say we'll just watch it unfold? It's like he doesn't answer to the public but rather he looks like a Corporate lap dog.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273785 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:36:40 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273744 anon : It's like Mulroney getting his hands caught in
the cookie jar, someone needs to catch some Telecom ministers with their hands held out too the big 3 in Canada's telecom industry.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273744 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:28:53 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273718 justsometech : Aribalister says it well

I think a better chicken anology is that you have a choice of which chicken your going to get , but in the end its all chicken. If thats the choice that the minister of industry wants us, as canadians to have, then its a absolute shame]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273718 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:25:42 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273702 Arbalister :
said by InvalidError See Profile :

said by justsometech See Profile :

when Bell Canada interferes with other ISP's we HAVE NO CHOICE
You still do have a choice, it is just that all flavors of ADSL will end up tasting like chicken. When the whole point of going with non-Bell ADSL is to avoid Bell's caps and throttling, seeing network-wide throttling does undermine the idea.
No, if Bell somehow manages to win their appeal, you will have *no* choice. Cable or Bell. Period. Independant ISPs will be finished.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273702 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 23:20:59 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273552 InvalidError :
said by justsometech See Profile :

when Bell Canada interferes with other ISP's we HAVE NO CHOICE
You still do have a choice, it is just that all flavors of ADSL will end up tasting like chicken. When the whole point of going with non-Bell ADSL is to avoid Bell's caps and throttling, seeing network-wide throttling does undermine the idea.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273552 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:55:12 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273443 justsometech : I love prentices idea that we (as consumers) some how have a choice... that is the heart of the debate and problem, when Bell Canada interferes with other ISP's we HAVE NO CHOICE]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273443 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:34:54 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273424 justsometech : »www.charlieangus.net/houseitem.p···c91a5df0

question period... in question]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273424 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:31:41 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273358 TobiasFunke :
said by cacruden See Profile :

»www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008···ell.html
In its appeal, Bell said such regulation is no longer necessary now that there is enough competition in phone and internet markets. In home phones, Bell is competing with a number of major cable companies, not to mention Voice over Internet Protocol providers and cellphone carriers.
Wait, wait, wait... Sure, you can point to VOIP competition, but when you and your one competitor both have the means, inclination and incentive to degrade service for those VOIP competitors, how can you possibly make this argument with a straight face?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273358 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:23:47 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273318 NiGHTS : Bell really wants the Independents to go out of business quickly. Their moves have been blatantly monopolistic and right in the face of authority. They want that monopoly as quick as possible. Bell must think this is the time to do it while we have a government that doesn't give a damn about Canadians rights.

I am so upset about the Jim Prentice question period. Wake up Jimbo, Bell does not own the Internet! Conservatives have to go.

»www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/···gy/home/]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273318 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:15:20 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273257 NiGHTS : This government has been such a disappointment. This is not a government to protect Canadian rights.

Think about what they have done:
-Quebec nationhood
-Many Canadian companies were taken over by foreign companies
-MDA soon taken over
-Income Trust scandal
-Bad tax policy. Every economist said income tax cuts work better than GST cut
-Not for Net Neutrality

I am ashamed I voted Conservative. Imagine a majority. Never again.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273257 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:04:32 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273245 justsometech : The only thing i am suprised about is that i havent heard about teksavvy filing motions to stop bell...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273245 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 22:03:38 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273094 anon : This is what's on CRTC's website:

March 3, 2008 CRTC announces new rules for
wholesale telecommunications services...

The Commission will maintain the requirement for telephone companies to provide interconnection services to competitors. Interconnection services allow competitors to access telecommunications networks in order that their customers may call individuals who have a different service provider. The Commission will also continue to mandate the provision of wholesale services used to provide services that are in the public interest, such as 911 and message relay services.

As part of this proceeding, the Commission revised its definition of an essential service. To be considered essential, a facility, function or service must:

* be required by competitors to provide a retail telecommunications service,
* be controlled by a company that could use its market power to lessen or prevent competition, and
* provide a functionality that would not be practical or feasible for competitors to duplicate.
...

Backgrounder on wholesale telecommunications services
Wholesale services
...
Categories of wholesale services
a) Interconnection
Interconnection services allow competitors to access telecommunications networks in order that their customers may call individuals who have a different service provider. Their provision will continue to be mandated.

These services permit interconnection between:

* local networks,
* local and long-distance networks, and
* wireless and wireline networks.


Note: Underlines are mine.

I think this new CRTC framework still applies to Bell Canada (vs TSI). They'll need someone higher up to stand up to CRTC.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273094 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:41:26 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273062 mattp2182 : I sent Mr. Geist a email asking him what the feasibility of a class action against the telco giants would be. Ill let you guys know if/when i get a response.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20273062 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:37:01 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272984 RobP :
said by eots See Profile :

Michael Geist is a lawyer who fully understands what's at stake, so why doesn't he start a class action suit against Bell? This latest action by Bell to eliminate competition is the final straw.
Remember what happened to the Deathstar when they started to throw their weight around? Slapped, AND broken down into many little pieces. Time for the Beaver hunt to begin :P ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272984 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:26:38 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272957 eots : Michael Geist is a lawyer who fully understands what's at stake, so why doesn't he start a class action suit against Bell? This latest action by Bell to eliminate competition is the final straw.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272957 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:21:55 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272953 jfmezei : >I would hope Teksavvy and the other smaller ISPs, have a >backup plan...

The Gaudraults probably already have a large mansion in the Bahamas (or Wawa, whichever they prefer) :-) :-)

They'll leave a dozen bananas in their barn to keep the employees fed for a week or two and perhaps a couple of timbits coupons.

How many "Teksavvy"s are there that are based in smaller towns?

And even in Chatham, despite our jokes about barns and cows, Teksavvy may not be considered a very large employer. Wouldn't be surprised if Bell had more employees in Chatham, perhaps even local offices filled with paper pushing civil servants.

So from the pont of view of MPs, mayor and chamber of commerce, they might not have that much support in a fight against a government willing to give Bell all the freedom it wants.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272953 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:21:29 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272935 Riplin : I bet the 3rd party ISP's that thanked bell for the traffic shaping are kicking themselves in the ass now. :uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272935 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:19:09 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272930 yabos :
said by upchuck :

This just proves Bell was, and is, out to harm the competition like teksavvy.
I agree. 3rd party ISPs are eating Bell's lunch and Rogers is in cohorts with them because everything Bell does Rogers does and everything Rogers does Bell does.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272930 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:18:23 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272892 ftp1020 : JF, the answer is easy enough. Just like everyone would like to be able to set their own salary, corporations would like to be able to merely announce their own profitability. With competition out of the way, that ability becomes that much easier.

Under friendly governments, oligopolies can morph into duopolies, and then into a single monopoly. The only thing preventing a cable-telco merger is government regulation. The best (but failed) example I can think of was Time-Warner-Netscape-AOL. That ugly monster managed to combine content production with content delivery, and threw in the browser and WWW portal for good measure. And the closest thing to a Canadian version was CTV-Thomson-Sympatico...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272892 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:13:04 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272889 Quake110 : Well, if Bell does succeeds to overturn the CRTC decision, the 3rd party ISPs will seriously need to look into a building some sort of consortium.

Even if it takes a long time to build, at the the end, they'll be free from Bell or Rogers' grip of power. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272889 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:12:06 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272877 RobP : We all saw this coming right?

What irks me the most is that the CRTC and the government haven't slapped bell down a few pegs. I guess this is the price we pay for having a Conservative government :S]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272877 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:09:17 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272870 HeadSpinning : The problem here is that they didn't file with the CRTC - they filed a leave to appeal with the Federal Court to overturn the CRTC's decision.

They're basically saying that they don't agree with the CRTC so they're going above their heads.

If ya don't like the way the game is turning out, ask for a new rulebook I guess.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272870 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:08:03 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272853 Name96 : It smells to me like Bell is worried about losing the wholesale service degradation issue at the CRTC and has opted to attack the CRTC's jurisdiction instead. This is a bit like playing chess and electing to club your opponent about the head with a baseball bat because he is getting close to putting you in checkmate.

I'd say the chances of Bell getting away with this are actually greater than the chances of them getting away with merely degrading wholesale service.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272853 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 21:05:25 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272785 liamoforange : So we are already living under what basically is a duopoly and now Bell wants to entrench its and the cable companies position into a true duopoly again. What we need instead is for the CRTC to force access to the cable companies networks for resale by third parties, and funding and subsidies so that 3rd parties can build networks and access points, so that Bell loses this position of power and domination.

Not like that will ever happen...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272785 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:54:50 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272773 jfmezei : One must ask the question: What is **REALLY** going on at Bell ?

Perhaps their strategy is to fire in a gazillion directions at the same time to overwhelm the CRTC, hoping the George W Harper will intervene to free Bell from the CRTC completely before a vote of non confidence forces an election.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272773 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:52:30 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272751 eots : All the 3rd party ISP's need to band together and file a lawsuit against Bell ASAP before Bell has a chance to appeal the CRTC decision.

Bell's attitude toward competition is outrageous.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272751 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:47:39 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272734 ftp1020 : Wow, Marx was right about capitalists seeking to become monopolists, and willfully concentrating ownership of the means of production ("the economy") into ever fewer hands.

Vote Tory!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272734 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:43:00 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272725 koreyb : I would hope Teksavvy and the other smaller ISPs, have a backup plan...

I have a feeling ISP's using Bell lines may be paying much more... MUCH MUCH MORE should they win at appealing this.

I think if the CRTC required the copper network to be owned and managed by a neutral party, that was contracted to provide service for Bell, and other ISPs/Phone CO's, this would end this crap.

I just don't see each co running their own copper/fiber down the road.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272725 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:42:33 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272720 shikotee : Wow..... I feel like I have been taking crazy pills!

Here we all are, complaining to the CRTC about how uncompetitive things are, and they are arguing the exact opposite.

"Bell said such regulation is no longer necessary now that there is enough competition in phone and internet markets".

I honestly felt sick to my stomach after reading that.

Are we honestly living in the Bizarro world?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272720 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:41:34 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272689 TFArchive : Sweet, so Bell thinks there is enough ISP competition so they want to stop selling access. Knock Knock McFly, if you stop selling access the competition will be gone, which would defeat the purpose of the original rules. (Yes I know that is their entire intent of this appeal)

BTW Bell your only competition is from 3rd party DSL companies and Cable, which last time I checked, didn't have any serious 3rd party resellers. (yes I know 3web and others technically provides cable but 1-2 people reselling the same service doesn't equal competition)

If bell does do this, I could see one of the biggest lawsuits in history coming and guess what, the CRTC would likely get sued for allowing it to happen.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272689 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:37:19 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272672 mattp2182 : Im waiting for the next election, i dont understand how any politician can possible think this isnt a big deal.

My vote will definatly not be conservative.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272672 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:35:00 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272666 harleyb : I see this as a good thing... Bell's outright saying that there's an issue, and they're bringing it straight to the CRTC. I think it would be much worse if Bell just tried to sweep the whole throttling thing under the carpet.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272666 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:34:21 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272658 ShadPTR : This doesn't give me any hope. :mad:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272658 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:33:02 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272638 Malovech : Goddamn conservative governments!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272638 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:30:52 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272623 matradley : I thought, as according to Lazlo, there is no consumer backlash! XD]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272623 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:28:25 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272621 mattp2182 : I agree, Minister pretince doesnt even seem to care. Is there anyone left in the government of this country (besides Mr.Angus) who actually care about the general public?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272621 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:27:57 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272616 anon : This just proves Bell was, and is, out to harm the competition like teksavvy.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272616 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:27:17 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272589 Radar73 : "Geist and others have criticized Minister of Industry Jim Prentice for his silence on the issue. Prentice was "disinterested" in the issue when it arose in question period in the House of Commons on Wednesday, he said."

This is pretty poor representation for consumers considering the barrage of complaints his office has received as of late.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272589 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:20:08 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272562 Radar73 :
said by mlerner See Profile :

I can't say I'm surprised, they've really been greedy recently. Let's hope the CRTC is smart enough to force them to keep wholesaling.
... and force them to not interfere with network traffic that doesn't belong to them.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272562 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:15:02 EDT Re: Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272545 mlerner : I can't say I'm surprised, they've really been greedy recently. Let's hope the CRTC is smart enough to force them to keep wholesaling.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272545 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:12:00 EDT Hands off our network, Bell tells CRTC http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272516 cacruden : »www.cbc.ca/technology/story/2008···ell.html

"BY PETER NOWAK — Bell Canada Inc. is calling on the courts to scrap mandated access by competitors to its network, a move that could jeopardize some smaller companies that sell phone and internet services.

The Montreal-based company on Wednesday filed a leave to appeal with the Federal Court of Canada to overturn a decision made by the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission in early March on what the regulator considers essential services.

The CRTC on March 3 reiterated that third-party companies should continue to be able to rent telephone companies' networks in order to provide their own customers with phone and internet services. The regulator considered this network access as essential for smaller companies to offer their services, and for some of them to survive.

In its appeal, Bell said such regulation is no longer necessary now that there is enough competition in phone and internet markets. In home phones, Bell is competing with a number of major cable companies, not to mention Voice over Internet Protocol providers and cellphone carriers. On the internet side, Bell faces competition from cable companies."

....continued on web site....]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20272516 Wed, 02 Apr 2008 20:06:25 EDT