  R0CKY TSI Rocky Premium,VIP join:2005-05-19 Chatham, ON
1 edit | Discussion from the Sympatico area...
»Un-Offical Stop the Traffic Shaping Petition
FYI...
I put this here so people would understand that we DO NOT BUY INTERNET OR INTERNET TRAFFIC from Bell. -- TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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 CanadianIron
join:2006-10-08 Beverly Hills, CA
| But Rocky you have no infrastructure of your own, you have no way of knowing the complications of netwwork management:
"Bandwidth doesn't just fall from the sky," Bibic said, adding that demands for more bandwidth would not resolve traffic congestion issues and that traffic shaping is part of a "multi-pronged" strategy used to limit congestion issues.
He dismissed requests that Bell invest in more bandwidth, describing the "irony" of receiving such requests from providers who have no infrastructure of their own and who don't directly deal with the complications of network management.
»canadianpress.google.com/article···fFgQQ5Gg |
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  R0CKY TSI Rocky Premium,VIP join:2005-05-19 Chatham, ON
3 edits | said by CanadianIron :But Rocky you have no infrastructure of your own, you have no way of knowing the complications of netwwork management: We pay for that portion... 5 X Gig-E connections at multiple thousand per month, an gig-e interface charge to aggregate the DSL connections to, which is another $1,700/month per Gig-E charge, plus $20ish/month per use fee to carry the internal network traffic on, plus $1 to carry it back to us in Toronto.
We're paying a premium to be wholesale customers.
On a separate note, we do have our own infrastructure, Bell's job is to hand off the connection to us at 151 Front street... We've hired Bell for the last portion of it, they are one of the Vendors for delivery a portion of our infrastructure. We'd use someone else for this, but we can't.
Your argument of no infrastructure is kind of funny as the word monopoly should ring in your head very heavily... We can't circumvent Bell in the ground! This is why Tariff 5400 was made an essential service... Stop and imagine for a second the likelihood of any one company being able to gain access to place their own equipment to every home in Ontario/Quebec... Bell has been given access to areas in these two provinces that no other business has access to or will ever have access to, so no, it's a false statement to say their network, when you consider the help they've received to put any of this stuff in place, and the fact is, they're a vendor of ours, who were hired to deliver a connection back to Toronto for us, nothing else.
On the Bandwidth out of the sky statement... If you place traffic on a Gig-E connection and you pay, lets say $2,000/month of fibre cost in the ground.... If you use 1/10 of the total pipe available of 100% of it, it still costs $2,000/month. So, lets assume you look at TekSavvy's case for a second. I'm rounding off numbers a little here for a second... We pay $2,000/month on 1 Gig-E connection, $1,700 for the interface fee per month, and $21 per user per month on that Gig-E. The estimates are roughly 1,000 users per 100Mbps on our end, so the math would be $21 X 1,000 per 100Mbps. Being as a Gig-E is 10 times that, you find yourself with $210,000/month of income to bell per saturated Gig-E connection.
So, to summarize....
TSI is paying: - Saturated Gig-E: $210,000/month - Gig-E connection: $2,000/month - Gig-e to DSL Interface: $1,700/month Total: Approx. $215,000/month
.... The significance here is, the saturated Gig-E connection still costs Bell less than $2,000 per month.
One can argue on the $210,000 not being related, but if we were to do that then we'd be removing the capacity argument.... Oops... Did I say something wrong?! 
Edit/PS: TekSavvy buys its "INTERNET TRAFFIC" from Peer1, T-Systems, Cogent, Teleglobe & Internap.... We DO NOT buy Internet traffic from Bell. I repeat, Bell DOES NOT provide us with INTERNET TRAFFIC.
-- TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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  mlerner Premium join:2000-11-25 Nepean, ON | lol.. good job Rocky! You should send out that summary to the press. I get the feeling that the average person is being brainwashed by Bell into thinking there's suddenly a bandwidth shortage. |
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 yabos
join:2003-02-16 Ingersoll, ON | reply to R0CKY I got the impression he was being sarcastic by quoting that Bell turd's argument. |
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  sbrook Premium,Mod join:2001-12-14 H0H 0H0 | reply to R0CKY Funny how there were few "congestion issues" until Bell seemed to suddenly invent them! |
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  GearHead360
join:2002-12-14 | Wow good number crunching. thx for the info  |
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 rade450
join:2006-06-21 East York, ON | reply to R0CKY So rocky will Teksavvy going to appeal to CRTC on this matter? or do they have done that already? And do you think CRTC goin' to listen? |
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 cacruden
join:2008-03-18 Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to R0CKY said by R0CKY :We pay $2,000/month on 1 Gig-E connection, $1,700 for the interface fee per month, and $21 per user per month on that Gig-E. The estimates are roughly 1,000 users per 100Mbps on our end, so the math would be $21 X 1,000 per 100Mbps. Being as a Gig-E is 10 times that, you find yourself with $210,000/month of income to bell per saturated Gig-E connection. You mention that you have 1,000 users per 100Mbps, and the charge is $21 /user. Is that $21/user charged to you on a per user basis by the Gig-E provider? Or is that $21 / user charge actually a per 100Mbp charge that you have calculated to be around $21 /user. I am just a little surprised that they would charge per user and not traffic. Is that just point to point traffic, or is this Peer1 or Cogent that you are talking about (includes internet)? Just curious. |
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 cacruden
join:2008-03-18 Toronto, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to rade450 said by rade450 :So rocky will Teksavvy going to appeal to CRTC on this matter? or do they have done that already? And do you think CRTC goin' to listen? They have filed with the CRTC, what the CRTC does is anyone's guess. |
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 alphaz18
join:2005-02-26 CANADA
| reply to cacruden i gotta agree with rocky this is rediculous.. my family used to run an isp in montreal, and we did something similar to teksavvy for about a year or 2. then exploded because we were losing too much money.. its rediculous.. but apparently its better now.. bell used to charge 30$/dsl connection here .. so we'd be forced to charge customer something like 31$ :\ it was pretty stupid. yes Cacruden. bell charges for each dsl user you subscribe i guess the price now is 20$ per month.. about 7~ or so years ago it was like 30$ per month.. or maybe they just didn't want us to sell dsl.. so they charged 30 a month per line or something.. + the backend.. so its pretty hard making any profit as .. 3rd party isps.. hats off to teksavvy for pulling it off |
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  R0CKY TSI Rocky Premium,VIP join:2005-05-19 Chatham, ON
| reply to cacruden said by cacruden :said by R0CKY :We pay $2,000/month on 1 Gig-E connection, $1,700 for the interface fee per month, and $21 per user per month on that Gig-E. The estimates are roughly 1,000 users per 100Mbps on our end, so the math would be $21 X 1,000 per 100Mbps. Being as a Gig-E is 10 times that, you find yourself with $210,000/month of income to bell per saturated Gig-E connection. You mention that you have 1,000 users per 100Mbps, and the charge is $21 /user. Is that $21/user charged to you on a per user basis by the Gig-E provider? Or is that $21 / user charge actually a per 100Mbp charge that you have calculated to be around $21 /user. I am just a little surprised that they would charge per user and not traffic. Is that just point to point traffic, or is this Peer1 or Cogent that you are talking about (includes internet)? Just curious. I just edited and added a PS portion at the end of the previous statement to this exact question.  -- TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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  Arbalister
join:2007-11-24 St Catharines, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..
| reply to cacruden said by cacruden :said by R0CKY :We pay $2,000/month on 1 Gig-E connection, $1,700 for the interface fee per month, and $21 per user per month on that Gig-E. The estimates are roughly 1,000 users per 100Mbps on our end, so the math would be $21 X 1,000 per 100Mbps. Being as a Gig-E is 10 times that, you find yourself with $210,000/month of income to bell per saturated Gig-E connection. You mention that you have 1,000 users per 100Mbps, and the charge is $21 /user. Is that $21/user charged to you on a per user basis by the Gig-E provider? Or is that $21 / user charge actually a per 100Mbp charge that you have calculated to be around $21 /user. I am just a little surprised that they would charge per user and not traffic. Is that just point to point traffic, or is this Peer1 or Cogent that you are talking about (includes internet)? Just curious. He's paying both. $21 per month is the flat rate bell charges per signed up customer. Traffic is the cost of the gig-E. He *owns* all the 6 gig-e connections...there's no per gig charge because he's paying for the full rate gig-e...even if there's one customer on it.
Which is what makes it totally BS that Bell would then turn around and tell him "gotta throttle this, no capacity..." It's not *bells* capacity at that point, it's bought and paid for by TSI. |
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  Glen1 These Are The Good Ol' Days. Premium,MVM join:2002-05-24 GTA Canada | reply to R0CKY Where is the actual point where they throttle the traffic, I am curious. We are "mushrooms" here. -- My Canada includes Quebec. |
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  R0CKY TSI Rocky Premium,VIP join:2005-05-19 Chatham, ON
| said by Glen1 :Where is the actual point where they throttle the traffic, I am curious. We are "mushrooms" here. Somewhere between the CO and Toronto for us. -- TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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 weblurker
join:2004-01-02
1 edit | reply to R0CKY said by R0CKY :said by CanadianIron : We pay for that portion... 5 X Gig-E connections at multiple thousand per month, an gig-e interface charge to aggregate the DSL connections to, which is another $1,700/month per Gig-E charge..... (snip) I was curious about the impact of the throttling on TSI's peak bandwidth requirements.
Some estimates indicate that p2p transfers were taking up almost half of the available bandwidth during peak hours. The throttling should have reduced TSI's peak needs for p2p by about a factor of at least 10 and possibly 15, so it would seem that the peak load during prime time should have fallen by a factor of about 2, the 40% used by p2p should have fallen to about 4% or less.
Are you seeing that kind of reduction during the throttled hours? Would that mean that most of the pipes you bought from Bell are no longer needed?
Or has the p2p bandwidth usage shifted from prime time to the non throttled off hours, so those pipes are still needed? |
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  R0CKY TSI Rocky Premium,VIP join:2005-05-19 Chatham, ON
2 edits | said by weblurker :said by R0CKY :said by CanadianIron : We pay for that portion... 5 X Gig-E connections at multiple thousand per month, an gig-e interface charge to aggregate the DSL connections to, which is another $1,700/month per Gig-E charge..... (snip) I was curious about the impact of the throttling on TSI's peak bandwidth requirements. Some estimates indicate that p2p transfers were taking up almost half of the available bandwidth during peak hours. The throttling should have reduced TSI's peak needs for p2p by about a factor of at least 10 and possibly 15, so it would seem that the peak load during prime time should have fallen by a factor of about 5. Are you seeing that kind of reduction during the throttled hours? Would that mean that most of the pipes you bought from Bell are no longer needed? Or has the p2p bandwidth usage shifted from prime time to the non throttled off hours, so those pipes are still needed? We've committed 5,000Mbps of backbone traffic (and each has a DSL aggregation Interface monthly) to Bell for the next 3 years, no matter what we have running through our pipes and have committed 2,600Mbps of Internet transit to our providers (Cogent, T-Systems, Peer1, Internap) for at least a year, no matter what we now have running through for Internet traffic, so our costs remain the same, no matter if the throttling is lowering anything at this point. This throttling is looking as though we will be something around 2,000Mbps or so (up or down by 200Mbps'ish)...
Edit: So, quick math... we're now paying something in the neighborhood of $20,000 per month for nothing, nevermind the staffing needed to handle the calls we're getting of people now complaining or calling as a result of this. -- TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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 Radar73
join:2008-01-20 Ajax, ON
| reply to CanadianIron said by CanadianIron :But Rocky you have no infrastructure of your own, you have no way of knowing the complications of netwwork management: "Bandwidth doesn't just fall from the sky," Bibic said, adding that demands for more bandwidth would not resolve traffic congestion issues and that traffic shaping is part of a "multi-pronged" strategy used to limit congestion issues. He dismissed requests that Bell invest in more bandwidth, describing the "irony" of receiving such requests from providers who have no infrastructure of their own and who don't directly deal with the complications of network management. » canadianpress.google.com/article···fFgQQ5Gg It really ticks me off when people buy into Bell's spin. We know they lie in their advertising and marketing and tech support and sales, why would anyone believe them in their spins to the media? We already know they think of them as lemmings!
Thanks for the info R0CKY. Hopefully it will help to educate the masses on the real situation. |
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 alphaz18
join:2005-02-26 CANADA
| reply to Glen1 I believe its inside bell's internal "cloud" i'm sure they'd never officially tell exactly where it gets throttled.. but.. guess what.. if its internal networks in their internal farms.... do you know how CHEAP it is to add capacity? heres a couple more switches.. run a few more fibers or rj46 cables to switches.. bam... ???!?!??! wtf. why are they whining and bitching so much saying conjestion.. guess what.. if its not at one of their farms.. that means the problem is more than likely isolated in one or two areas.. wouldn't be everywhere.. rerouting traffic is not even an option in that case.. in otherwords.. wth? i would REALLY want some proof that.. there is indeed a massive congestion issue.. and the ONLY effective way to solve it is investing in expensive throttling equipment rather than cheap expansion equipment. Otherwise. its like. literally my word against bells in a big yelling contest.. |
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  R0CKY TSI Rocky Premium,VIP join:2005-05-19 Chatham, ON | I just showed our cards... Lets see if they're big enough to show theirs now.  -- TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
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