Re: dumb pipes in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20326717 en Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:48:10 EDT Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:48:10 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20326717 openbox9 : Great, but that's not what pokesph was asking for. Also, I would venture to guess that most "typical" users are fine with their providers' mail servers. You aren't going to find many "dumb pipes" around the Internet these days, but that doesn't mean that you can't make it a dumb pipe as much as possible and do your own thing. That's one of the things that makes the Internet so great ;)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20326717 Sun, 13 Apr 2008 11:16:47 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20325560 james : Dumb Pipe only please. There are enough companies out there that can supply me with mail and news thanks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20325560 Sun, 13 Apr 2008 00:16:46 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20313767 degauss1 : The content providers pay for their bandwidth requirements as does the user. The ISPs collect on both sides already.

Asking them (content providers) to pay more for XYZ ISP to allow users to access said content is completely against what the internet was meant to be. We don't need thousands of AOL's folding up around us. We need reliable, cheap fast dumb pipes.

There are providers for email, news group access out there already. Their services in most cases are better than what ISPs provide.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20313767 Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:59:10 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20310171 anon :
said by pokesph See Profile :

That's all an ISP needs to be. I myself don't want the portals and other _advanced_ content crap.
All we want is a good connection to the net, decent email and newsnet servers.
Stop trying to be content providers, we can find that stuff on our own.
No, nobody wants ISPs to provide e-mail services. Specially if they are as bad as Comcast's.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20310171 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:52:44 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20309908 battleop : For level of service you get these services are hardly inflated.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20309908 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:10:26 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20309278 amigo_boy :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

That they won't continue to pursue additional caps/charges/fees irregardless of real world network strain and operating expenses? That you won't still subsequently see low caps and overage charges?
Odd that you're using the "it will never stop" argument, and then apparently denying the legitimacy of that same argument if ISPs use it:

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

If it is in fact such a dire situation that we need to begin taxing upstart entertainment developers before they've even cornered 1% of the video delivery market...
They may have an interest in getting in front of this before it gets larger. And, if it wasn't an impact on them, why would content providers use this medium instead of traditional delivery via http (and all the bandwidth charges they would incur)?

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20309278 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 16:18:13 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20309022 Karl Bode :
quote:
So let me reframe the question: do you want to pay someone for a TV show or movie and then have them offload the costs of distribution on to you on top of what you've already paid?


Again though, I disagree with the whole idea that it's anybody but the ISP's problem. I'm sorry Vuze is using Comcast's bandwidth to compete with Comcast, but why should the consumer care?

Correct or not, the consumer believes that bandwidth is theirs after a decade of marketing suggesting as much. They paid for it. The software developer developed a system that uses this bandwidth to provide a service to consumers.

If the service the consumer is choosing to use is consuming too much bandwidth, the ISP can charge them more. Move them to a higher tier. If the network is suffering from problems because the old architecture can't meet the realities of new delivery systems (and I think this isn't really a problem, but is overstated for political effect), it's time to upgrade the network, make the protocols more efficient and engage in some degree of sensible traffic shaping (all three are happening).

What the ISPs want here is to have their cake and eat it too: Hint at all you can eat connectivity while quietly throttling and booting high-consumption users, and have someone else pay for their network expansion without suffering the PR headache that comes from having to charge more to meet bandwidth demand. This is mixed with a desire to keep competition for video services at bay.

There's a lot of farmed FUD out there by think tanks and PR execs that get reconstituted by lower level employees as gospel...

And as an aside, I love how so many people preach about the free market ceaselessly, but then when it does something they don't like their first impulse is to tax, impose fees, and get Uncle Sam to pass laws protecting their interests...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20309022 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:33:17 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308982 openbox9 :
said by jc100 See Profile :

it's the fact ISPS are wanting to be compensated for usage in general.
Gasp...why is this so wrong?
said by jc100 See Profile :

They now want handouts in conjunction with performing their duties.
What handouts are you referring to? And their "duties"? I'm assuming you're referring to their "dumb pipe" duty. Once again, if you want a "dumb pipe", you're free to purchase access to one.
said by jc100 See Profile :

They need to either raise prices and expand their networks, or quit moaning. Simple.
Bring it. And then we can smack all of the whiners that will complain that the poor consumer is being picked on by greedy ISPs who keep raising their rates so that they can get a 20 Mbps connection to replace their 15 Mbps connection. Not so simple now. I personally like my lower cost service if it's subsidized by other revenue streams.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308982 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:26:33 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308922 openbox9 :
said by Boogeyman See Profile :

Business connections arent priced on speed. You dont pay way more than resedential because its faster, you pay way more for it because they have minimum service garuantees, more competent techs and fast problem resolution.
I didn't say anything about "speed". If anything, your comment reiterates what I stated. The lack of guarantees, overselling, latency, etc. on residential connections allow them to be priced lower than business connections.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308922 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:16:02 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308891 Corydon :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

You really think, that if American ISPs start charging content providers a delivery tax, that the whole "debate" ends there? That they won't continue to pursue additional caps/charges/fees irregardless of real world network strain and operating expenses? That you won't still subsequently see low caps and overage charges?
Of course not, although I'm not advocating a "delivery tax" or similar nonsense. What I am advocating is the status quo, where if you have content you want to sell or give away, you have to pay an ISP (any ISP) to host it. I'm sure you're well aware of how this works; no doubt the costs of hosting this site are substantial. That seems fair to me.

P2P gets around this by effectively hosting content on your consumers' computers and using their ISPs to deliver it. No wonder content providers love it so much. The costs of hosting content are almost entirely offloaded onto the consumer's ISP (and ultimately the consumer).

So let me reframe the question: do you want to pay someone for a TV show or movie and then have them offload the costs of distribution on to you on top of what you've already paid? That hardly seems very consumer friendly.

(edited second paragraph for clarity and grammar)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308891 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 15:10:20 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308771 Karl Bode :
quote:
I don't want my prices going up and I don't want the hassle of tracking my usage and I really don't want to be arguing with my ISP over how much my connection has been used.


You really think, that if American ISPs start charging content providers a delivery tax, that the whole "debate" ends there? That they won't continue to pursue additional caps/charges/fees irregardless of real world network strain and operating expenses? That you won't still subsequently see low caps and overage charges?

This is about protecting turf and the ceaseless need for quarter over quarter stock results, far more than it's about broadband network topography. It's about executives using public relations to convince the world there's a looming bandwidth apocalypse that will only be cured if you allow them to do "X".

Who cares what X is, it changes from week to week (regulation, per-byte billing, new fees, Google delivery tax).

Surely any one of these folks that support such an idea would gladly show us real world budgetary impact, or the traffic impact of Vuze on Comcast's overall network performance?

If it is in fact such a dire situation that we need to begin taxing upstart entertainment developers before they've even cornered 1% of the video delivery market...]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308771 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:46:13 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308701 Karl Bode : Are you saying that a consumer who freely chooses to use their bandwidth for the iPlayer, sends a check to his ISP, and that check somehow gets lost in the time/space continuum? ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308701 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:33:25 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308679 amigo_boy :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

Are you saying you support content taxes? per-byte billing?
I'd rather see that than my bandwidth reduced because of new content distribution models which some people benefit more from than others.

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

Are you saying carriers cannot survive under the current flat-rate pricing model?
No. I'm saying we don't get something for nothing in this world. The BBC obviously knows this or they would have delivered their content the traditional way. It was clearly in their financial interest to use p2p. They are getting something for nothing.

Clearly someone has to pay. The BBC has shifted its costs. You seem to be saying it's not significant enough. To turn your reasoning back on you, are you saying carriers cannot survive by giving me my connection for free? I'd like the same deal the BBC got.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308679 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:28:42 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308630 Karl Bode :
quote:
You'd be ok with metered billing?
Sigh.

Are you saying you support content taxes?

Are you saying you support per-byte billing?

Are you saying carriers cannot survive under the current flat-rate pricing model?

Are you saying all content providers who already pay for bandwidth should now be double dipped, and pay ISPs an additional fee for reaching the consumer?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308630 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:18:18 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308602 Corydon :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

Yes, well we're only talking about BitTorrent, perhaps the most revolutionary media distribution concept created in the last decade.
It may well be revolutionary...but revolutions aren't necessarily good things (the October Revolution for one).

It is revolutionary in the way that it uses bandwidth far more efficiently.

The problem with this efficiency is that current business models for residential customers rely on a certain amount of inefficiency—not every customer can be using their connection at all times or else the network crashes.

Incidentally, this isn't a problem limited to MSOs, nor is it a new model. Again, going back to the '90s, dial-up ISPs consistently "oversold" their service because they could safely assume that not all of their customers would be online at once.

If the old assumptions no longer apply (i.e. that people will not be using their connection most of the time), then it's also logical to assume that the old sales model will disappear as well (i.e. cheap, always available, near-unlimited usage).

Why is it such a surprise to discover that the people who aren't interested in downloading most of the crap that Hollywood churns out really like things as they are and really don't feel like subsidizing people who are?

I don't want my prices going up and I don't want the hassle of tracking my usage and I really don't want to be arguing with my ISP over how much my connection has been used.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308602 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:15:01 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308564 amigo_boy :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

quote:
You'd contribute to that "marketing hit" by slamming them for any of the above.


Actually, so far I've only hit them on behavioral advertising when they don't clearly alert customers
You'd be ok with metered billing? I've gotten the impression from the editorials that you wouldn't. Or, at the very least you'd contribute to the customer angst rather than pointing out through your editorials that it's a valid business model in the face of "revolutionary media distribution" changes. I.e., I *didn't* get the impression you'd provide balance on that topic.

said by Karl Bode See Profile :

, but if you say so.
There's no need to be churlish. I'm sincerely asking what ISPs should do to offset costs which would have been paid to the content provider's ISP before this "revolution." I always get the impression ISPs can't do anything to avoid criticism.

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308564 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 14:06:50 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308504 Karl Bode :
quote:
I still believe you're being disingenuous.

Well then we are at a "disingenuousness" stale mate because the feeling is mutual.
quote:
You'd contribute to that "marketing hit" by slamming them for any of the above.

Actually, so far I've only hit them on behavioral advertising when they don't clearly alert customers, but if you say so.
quote:
But, if a content provider offloads the expense of their business model to ISPs you praise them for "innovation."

Yes, well we're only talking about BitTorrent, perhaps the most revolutionary media distribution concept created in the last decade.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308504 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:53:45 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308402 amigo_boy :
said by Karl Bode See Profile :

they don't want to take the marketing hit from raising prices, imposing per-byte-billing or telling Google they'll now be paying a "congestion charge."
I still believe you're being disingenuous. You'd contribute to that "marketing hit" by slamming them for any of the above. But, if a content provider offloads the expense of their business model to ISPs you praise them for "innovation."

Mark]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308402 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:35:13 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308379 Karl Bode :
quote:
They need to either raise prices and expand their networks, or quit moaning.
That's precisely it.

Notice the year or two of constant complaining, yet they don't want to take the marketing hit from raising prices, imposing per-byte-billing or telling Google they'll now be paying a "congestion charge."]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308379 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:31:07 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308337 jc100 : How so? If you are implying a dedicated line, that's a whole new argument. It's not speed we're bantering about, it's the fact ISPS are wanting to be compensated for usage in general. Basically, ISPS are sick of being the pipe. They now want handouts in conjunction with performing their duties. Wrong. They need to either raise prices and expand their networks, or quit moaning. Simple. It has nothing to do with your line and the speed given. It has everything to do with ISPS not wanting to live up to their end of the bargain. the web is just that, a network and collection of MANY IDEAS big and small. I don't want the ISP moaning at which idea they like and which they don't. It's not their job. Their job is to provide me with the capability to access whatever. If they need to adjust their business model, so be it. Let it be adjusted in terms that resolve the issue (better capacity as I said) versus ignorance and moaning at the people who write said content.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308337 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:24:08 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308315 jc100 : Exactly. You forgot about the SLA of 99.9 percent. Basically, if my internet goes off, they bring a tech out immediately. We're both given the same line. One has a guarantee to be fixed immediately (Business) and the other just has to be repaired in a reasonable time (home).]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308315 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:20:54 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308261 Boogeyman : Business connections arent priced on speed. You dont pay way more than resedential because its faster, you pay way more for it because they have minimum service garuantees, more competent techs and fast problem resolution.

THATS why business class connections cost so much more, it has nothing to do with not being "subsidized".]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20308261 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 13:15:49 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307647 openbox9 :
said by jc100 See Profile :

IT IS NOT the content provider's responsibility to limit what the user sees, nor is it the ISPS's. Their sole job is to provide the connectivity so that access can be gained to the internet.
Says you. There are a lot of providers out there that disagree with your viewpoint. telcolackey's comment above is a good one. If you don't want a "subsidized" connection, then you need to be willing to pay for it.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307647 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:29:15 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307560 telcolackey : To move to a dump pipe model, the consumer must pay the cost of bandwidth as it grows (look at T1, etc prices)... Not the flat fee of high speed residential broadband. As bandwidth usage grows, it has to be subsidized somehow.
--
"Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." - Dinah Craik]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307560 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:11:13 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307525 pokesph :
said by battleop See Profile :

You can get that dumb pipe in the form of a T1, DS3, Metro Ethernet, etc.
Of course but at extremely inflated prices not suitable for most home / small business users.

Now IF they would offer a best effort service with limited support and a relaxed SLA @ competitive prices, I'd be all over it. 2GigaE FTW]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307525 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 11:04:06 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307454 jc100 : ISPS have something to moan about! It's called not living up to their end of the bargain. Customers PAY THEM for the service. If they can't afford or aren't able to provide it, then changes have to be made on their end. IT IS NOT the content provider's responsibility to limit what the user sees, nor is it the ISPS's. Their sole job is to provide the connectivity so that access can be gained to the internet. If they need to raise prices or expand their network, so be it. However, don't cry when other's point out the obvious flaw in your model. Just because you chose to skimp and now can't provide the bandwidth, is no one else's fault. Live with it ISPS. You set yourself up for the problems you face.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307454 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:51:23 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307440 battleop : You can get that dumb pipe in the form of a T1, DS3, Metro Ethernet, etc. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307440 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:48:42 EDT Re: dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307381 openbox9 :
said by pokesph See Profile :

All we want is a good connection to the net, decent email and newsnet servers.
Do you want a dumb pipe or decent mail and news servers?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307381 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:38:35 EDT dumb pipes http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307325 pokesph : That's all an ISP needs to be. I myself don't want the portals and other _advanced_ content crap.
All we want is a good connection to the net, decent email and newsnet servers.
Stop trying to be content providers, we can find that stuff on our own.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20307325 Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:30:33 EDT