Re: One way of grounding an antenna. in Ham Radio

Re: One way of grounding an antenna. in Ham Radio http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20335646 en Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:11:57 EDT Tue, 02 Dec 2008 05:11:57 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20390446 Splitpair :

said by ke4pym

:

Splitpair - in the 8th picture, looking down it looks as though the ground wire is cut in the center of the grounding rod with a loop coming out of the right side.

What is the purpose of cutting the cable? And what is the purpose of the loop on the right side?

What I did was run the grounding conductor from the antenna to the Cadweld which is the lower wire in the photograph then upper wire from the Cadweld is the bond jumper to the ground ring and the loop of wire is used to fill the other two ports on the Cadweld mould.

The reason for that is rather than stock multiple Cadwelds with two three or four ports I buy the four port moulds and just plug the unused ports.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20390446 Sat, 26 Apr 2008 10:06:03 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20390359 ke4pym : Splitpair - in the 8th picture, looking down it looks as though the ground wire is cut in the center of the grounding rod with a loop coming out of the right side.

What is the purpose of cutting the cable? And what is the purpose of the loop on the right side?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20390359 Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:28:08 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20385016 Splitpair :

said by Speedy Petey

:

I'm curious. Where do you buy wire by the pound?

Joseph's Recycling on St Rd 84.

I can turn in scrap clean stripped wire for $3 a pound. I don't know what I paid for #6 bare last, But I guarantee it was far more than $2 a pound.

I'm pretty sure the price was like $1.45 or $1.75 and that was for insulated wire not clean copper.

I don't check prices on that stuff very often. I should though.

It varies by day and lately like gasoline is trending upward.

Even other licensed electricians are not clear on the whole concept.

I wouldn't expect an electrician to understand grounding and bonding other than to meet the code as applying it to surge protection and station grounding is another world to them.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20385016 Fri, 25 Apr 2008 11:00:59 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20382394 Speedy Petey :

said by Splitpair

:

350 feet #6 copper @ 30Lbs @ 1.45 per Lb $43.00
..........

..... also keep in mind those are 2005 copper prices now the price per pound is running about $2.00.

I'm curious. Where do you buy wire by the pound?

Also, those prices are 2001 prices, NOT 2005 prices. At least around here.

I can turn in scrap clean stripped wire for $3 a pound.
I don't know what I paid for #6 bare last, But I guarantee it was far more than $2 a pound.
I don't check prices on that stuff very often. I should though.

I honest do have to agree with public about the misinformation regrading grounding and bonding. Not necessarily in this thread, but in general. Even other licensed electricians are not clear on the whole concept.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20382394 Thu, 24 Apr 2008 21:06:53 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351319 Splitpair :

said by public

said by Splitpair

:

Permit 67.50

What is the permit for?
Midwest cities have no lightning protection requirements or inspectors.
Is that a local Florida thing?

While it happens all the time here in South Florida one doesn't want to be caught turning a screwdriver on electrical work without a permit plus I already had other contractors who had open permits on the site so it wasn’t like I could do this under the RADAR or on a Saturday permit.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351319 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:24:37 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351289 public :

said by Splitpair

:

Permit 67.50

What is the permit for?
Midwest cities have no lightning protection requirements or inspectors.
Is that a local Florida thing?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351289 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:12:43 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351270 public :

said by dandeman

:

Maybe I missinterpreted what you are saying but it sounds like you are questioning the effectiveness of the perimeter grounds due to the voltage resistance and voltage rise issues..

I am not questioning effectiveness of any particular grounding system. My point is that a grounding system does not dissipate energy. It is used as an interface to connect a protective wiring to earth ground. Main purpose is to minimize voltage rise during a strike.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351270 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 01:07:44 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351089 Splitpair :

said by public

:

Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.

There is a lot of misinformation on the relatively simple concept of lightning protection grounding.

In particular what parts are mis-informative?

None of the components of the ground systems should dissipate power.

Read it again I stated a proper ground is mandatory for a surge protector to disburse energy not the ground system which merely passes that energy from the surge protector to earth.

How much did the ground ring cost in materials? What AWG does it use?

350 feet #6 copper @ 30Lbs @ 1.45 per Lb $43.00

6 5/8” 10 foot ground rods @$16.00 96.00

5 Cadwelds @ $14.00 70.00

PVC parts and cement for sprinkler repairs 35.00

Trencher @ $95.00 per day 95.00

Installer/Operator @ $250.00 per day 250.00

Labor @ $125.00 per day 125.00

Permit 67.50

Misc food beer snacks etc. 30.00

Total $811.50

Lowball estimate $1290.00

Savings $ 478.50

All told with repairs the job took just 8hours from start to finish including pickup and drop off of the labor and trencher also keep in mind those are 2005 copper prices now the price per pound is running about $2.00.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20351089 Fri, 18 Apr 2008 00:17:44 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20349823 dandeman :

Maybe I missinterpreted what you are saying but it sounds like you are questioning the effectiveness of the perimeter grounds due to the voltage resistance and voltage rise issues..

True.... there can be tough soil conditions will limit the ability to minimize ground resistance.. It will never be zero.

True.... there can be significant voltage rise when the statistical average or any significant lightning hit occurs.

BUT, the purpose of the ground ring and connecting all equipment together is so that the entire system rises and falls together, without damaging voltage differentials within the system. All connected equipment (and signal interfaces, be it power, communications, etc subject only to the surge arrestor let through voltages) will rise and fall to the degree that the imperfect ground lets it, for the duration of the hit.

Flashovers would seem to me to be indicative of holes in the protective system, or flashovers between the system and objects outside the system but in near proximity (which would be bad practice to not bond in). Either would be an indicator that the site may need a more advanced system e.g. underground griding or other more advanced protection as done at power plants, power substations, TV transmitter sites.

RO Associates literature (the associated training group with Polyphaser) discusses this in length and some of the ramifications in large system sites. The best of the major commercial sites that we install and maintain power systems tend to use permeter rings as best practice.. The TV transmitter sites we have equipment at are very impressive, and extremely rare to be knocked off the air due to damage. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20349823 Thu, 17 Apr 2008 18:43:22 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20345895 public :

said by Splitpair

There is a lot of misinformation on the relatively simple concept of lightning protection grounding.
The purpose is to connect equipment or protected structure to earth so that when large current flowing during a lightning strike produces minimum voltage rise. None of the components of the ground systems should dissipate power.
A typical mediocre 3 ohm ground will produce 100kV voltage rise when an average 30kA lightning current flows. Resulting flashovers will damage some equipment.
How much did the ground ring cost in materials? What AWG does it use?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20345895 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:26:30 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20342104 dandeman : Splitpair... another great discussion and pics of proper grounding...

said by drjim

:

A ground "ring" is sometimes called a Perimeter Ground, as in it goes around the perimeter of an area.

I like to use the freeway analogy as to how this works.. Build a big superhighway ring around a city and the "thru traffic" (majority of the millions of electrons from a lightning strike) will take the big easy path around it..

Just as in rush hour when the loop freeway is choked with traffic(ground systems can similarly saturate or overload on big hits.. too lengthy a discussion to go into), cars (electrons) start looking for alternate routes.

In terms of bonding EVERYTHING to the permeter ground, it solves a similar analogy.. In your TV, radio, etc.. you offer a backwoods path for the excess traffic. i.e. you have a connection from the power source, cable/TV antenna coming very close together on expensive circuit boards inside the TV, your cable modem, etc..

By common bonding, you are in essence building additional "roads" that can safely handle any excess traffic, rather than using your easily damaged "back roads" inside your electronics.

Most of the energy from the power "highway" and the "cable highway will take the "freeway" permeter loop or your well built secondary roads.

But some amount of energy will still insist on driving across your "lawn" maybe it should be "lands" :) (circuit traces) on your expensive piece of electronics.. So you build a second loop around the TV or other device to be protected.. i.e. surge suppressors all bonded together at that device to take care of any remaining surge..

This barrier ring in essence puts your device on a "dead end stub" road that goes nowhere (all connections go through surge suppressors on this second protective ring)..

Any remaining traffic (electrons) trying to flow though your protected device is limited by the "toll gate" limit i.e. the surge suppressor let thru voltage, to a safe amount that your electronics is capable of handling..

:) :) Thought this analogy would paint a easier picture as to how this stuff works..

pic is of such a barrier around my HDTV. All external connections to the HDTV go through this barrier.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20342104 Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:29:24 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20339539 drjim : A ground "ring" is sometimes called a Perimeter Ground, as in it goes around the perimeter of an area.
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20339539 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:15:37 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20339281 GeekGirl1 : Wow, nice feedback. Thanks. Here's why I was confused- maybe it will help put things in perspective from those who work in "electronics" (RF, video, audio, computers, etc.) versus those who work in "electrical" (AC/DC power utility).

1. My grounding experience is that it should be done as single-point grounding to avoid ground loops. Understanding a ground loop is not the problem. It's that I just never heard the term ground ring- not common in my line of work. That picture helped a lot.

2. The term "bonding" is another term that I don't work with on a daily basis. The FAQ definition of bonding, »AT&T Southeast Forum FAQ »How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges?, and others state it's the intentional connection of separate circuits by a conductor, just didn't make any sense to me. Especially when it says that bonding is the same as grounds. The critical term here is circuits, which I guess differentiates it from a normal "wire to wire" connection.

It now makes sense when I look at your picture. I see that you are "bonding" between the antenna ground plane circuit and earth ground circuit. Is that the idea?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20339281 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 17:27:13 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336874 Splitpair :

said by Axilla

:

You bond (connect) grounds together so you don't create a ground loop.

»www.epanorama.net/documents/grou···ics.html

While I’m not too sure of the overall accuracy of that article it is really not relative to the reasons for bonding in this case.

One of many comments in the article that leaves me doubting the knowledge of the author relative to grounding stands out is this paragraph.

“Here is an example situation where two grounde equipments are interconnected though signal wire ground and the mains grounding wire. In this situation there is 1A current flowing flowing in the wire which causes 0.1V voltage difference between those two equipemt grounding points.”

First of all a ground should never have a continuous flow of current through it that is just flat out incorrect. A grounded conductor “neutral” may carry current but the grounding conductor should have current present on it only when passing something abnormal to earth.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336874 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:37:36 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336762 Splitpair :

said by KeysCapt

:

Thanks. I went looking some months ago, and didn't turn that one up.

Do the on-line registration form for Tessco and a rep will call you back to set up an account. About all they require for an account is a pulse and a valid CC number (no tax forms numbers etc.) but do remember to use the CC you plan on ordering against or it really hoses up their system if you change CC's with going through a human.

BTW those one-shots are about $5 lower for account holders in single unit price.

Wayne

--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336762 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:16:22 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336735 Splitpair :

said by CyberRage

:

Typically where a difference occurs, something is going to loose it's magic smoke.

Bingo.

From the FAQ's

Grounding is required to provide the surge protector with a path to dump the excess energy to earth. A proper ground system is a mandatory requirement of surge protection. Without a proper ground, a surge protector has no way to disburse the excess energy and will fail to protect downstream equipment.

Bonding is required to electrically connect together the various grounds of the services entering the premises. Without bonding, a surge may still enter a premise after firing over a surge protector, which will attempt to pass the excess energy to its ground with any additional energy that the services surge protector ground cannot instantly handle, traveling into and through protected equipment, damaging that equipment in the process.

A typical scenario would be: A roof mounted satellite dish receives an inductive surge from a nearby lightning strike. The voltage induced into the dish and its coax fire over the coaxial surge protector, which passes the excess energy to the ground rod connected to the coaxial surge protector. Unfortunately, the earth around this ground rod is incapable of absorbing all of this energy instantly, so some of the energy enters the premise seeking additional grounds and in doing so, travels through the satellite receiver and out the power outlet ground in addition, it will travel through the receiver to telephone line seeking the Telco ground in the process damaging the satellite receiver.

The “rules of power” from a work in progress on Amateur Radio Station grounding.

Why is grounding, bonding and a solid neutral necessary for station protection:

Ok starting simple lets set a few ground rules (pardon the pun).

Rule one Power is lazy it will seek out the path of least resistance to where it wishes to travel and despite popular belief that path may not always be the shortest path to that goal.

Rule two Power brings many friends once the first path becomes clogged additional paths in order of increasing resistance will be discovered and utilized.

Rule three if you fail to provide an alternate adequate path for Power to travel over don’t blame Power if it takes a shortcut through a piece of your equipment destroying it in the process.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336735 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 10:11:13 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336221 KeysCapt :

said by Splitpair

:

Tessco is one.

»https://www.tessco.com/products/displayP···ntPage=1

Wayne

Thanks. I went looking some months ago, and didn't turn that one up.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336221 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 07:33:17 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336066 alphapointe : FIRE IN THE HOLE!!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336066 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 05:13:54 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336049 CyberRage : Or, you might want to to bond (connect or tie) your grounds together to prevent a difference potential during a large surge.... say a lightning strike or strong spike from a strike. You want that surge to rise and fall at the same rate and at the same time across the board. Typically where a difference occurs, something is going to loose it's magic smoke.
--
Prop your feet up at Southeast Chat ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20336049 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 04:45:50 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335959 Axilla : You bond (connect) grounds together so you don't create a ground loop.

»www.epanorama.net/documents/grou···ics.html
--
INFLOW-WI]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335959 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 03:12:08 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335710 sporkme : Can someone get this man an MVM tag?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335710 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:50:22 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335660 Splitpair :

said by GeekGirl1

:

"Bonded to the existing ground ring" - Is that a water-tight / gas-tight connection?

No those are basic UL listed C-Taps made by Burndy and are designed for that use. »portal.fciconnect.com/portal/pag···r+Cables

To me, it just looks like everything is crimped together. Seems like it can rust without anything to seal it.

It’s crimped with a compound compression crimping tool and it is not going to become loose and being all copper will not rust.

Why do you call installation of the ground rod "grounding" but the connection to the ground ring "bonding"?

The antenna mast mounting and the antenna’s primary protector are connected to a ground rod installed for the antenna and that ground rod is bonded to the ground ring/system.

Single phase residential / small business surge protection requires three components to work properly they are good grounds with good bonding and a solid and low resistance neutral and the reason we bond grounds is to eliminate and difference in potential that will occur should one of them be required to pass a surge to earth. More on this can be found here under surge protection where I describe the reason for bonding.

»AT&T Southeast Forum FAQ »How can I protect my DSL/dialup equipment from surges?

While not to scale above is a diagram of the ground system I have installed here on which you can see how the various grounds for the utilities serving my home are bonded to the ground ring I installed. Hopefully it helps to clear up bonding vs. grounding.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335660 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:34:03 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335646 Splitpair :

said by KeysCapt

said by Splitpair

:

As for price they are about $17 each but are usually purchased in quanties of 6 per box.

Wayne

Where?

Tessco is one.

»https://www.tessco.com/products/displayP···ntPage=1

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335646 Tue, 15 Apr 2008 00:31:00 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335002 GeekGirl1 : "Bonded to the existing ground ring" - Is that a water-tight / gas-tight connection? To me, it just looks like everything is crimped together. Seems like it can rust without anything to seal it.

Why do you call installation of the ground rod "grounding" but the connection to the ground ring "bonding"?

Found a reference to grounding and bonding here: »www.necplus.org/Articles/Groundi···ics.aspx, but your picture has me confused. I don't understand the difference between bonding and grounding and how you use it here. Does bonding refer to the actual connection and grounding refer to the function of "grounding"? Terminology is confusing.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20335002 Mon, 14 Apr 2008 22:09:47 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20334753 KeysCapt :

said by Splitpair

:

As for price they are about $17 each but are usually purchased in quanties of 6 per box.

Wayne

Where?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20334753 Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:27:55 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20329622 drjim : Nice job, Wayne. Always like to see properly bonded ground connections!
--
One man's Magic is another man's Engineering.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20329622 Sun, 13 Apr 2008 23:05:15 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20329300 Splitpair :

said by KA3SGM

:

WOW, Loved the Fireworks !!!

Splitpair, How much does one of those 1 Shots cost, and can you set it off with MAAP gas or do you need the extra heat of an Oyx-Acetylene torch??

I have no idea I do know the Cadweld One Shots are designed to be tripped off by a flint lighter and those sparks are quite hot.

As for price they are about $17 each but are usually purchased in quanties of 6 per box.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.
]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20329300 Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:57:49 EDT Re: One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20329167 KA3SGM : WOW, Loved the Fireworks !!!

Splitpair, How much does one of those 1 Shots cost, and can you set it off with MAAP gas or do you need the extra heat of an Oyx-Acetylene torch??
--
"Lithium is no longer available on credit"]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20329167 Sun, 13 Apr 2008 21:34:15 EDT One way of grounding an antenna. http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20328879 Splitpair : I installed a modified wideband discone at my home today and since it stands about 8 feet taller then the home grounding was a requirement.

From the antenna mounting which is a TV antenna dual wall mount with a 1 ¼ inch mast I ran a number 4 copper down to the ground rod why a number four I’m cheap and buy my wire from a local scrap yard and on the day I was there all I could find near to what I needed was 25 or so feet of number four which on the scale would cost $10 I also found a three by 10 inch copper buss bar in a bin and added that to the scale raising my total to $26.

For the primary protection of the top mounted antenna I cut a small copper ground bar out of the one I bought and mounted it to a beam clamp with a one inch insulator as I would be mounting it to the frame of my home and wanted it isolated from the frames which are already bonded to my ground ring at other locations once placed the coax was run through the mounted PolyPhaser protector and the number four from the antenna mounting passed through the lug on the copper ground bar and then on to the ground rod.

On the ground I trenched out a couple of feet from the home and placed a five eights of an inch ten foot copper plated steel ground rod and while it may look like someone planted a conduit bender in the garden that is what I use as a slide hammer to pound the rod into the earth.

To connect the grounding and bonding conductors to the ground rod I used a Cadweld One-Shot which is a one use disposable exothermic welding mould. FWIW Cadweld recommends using a flint lighter for kicking off the One-Shots I don’t have one so I use a torch but don’t do as I did and if you do don’t sue me if it blows up. ;-)

On one side of the Cadweld you can see the ground conductor and the other conductor is a bond which is run to the homes ground ring and on the opposite side is a loop of wire which is placed to plug the other two unused ports in the One Shot again being cheap I only buy one type of Cadweld and plug the ports I do not need.

Wayne
--
If you cannot fix it with a buttset and some bennies you ain't a technician.

The junk pile.
Ground bar.
Ground bar.
Bar mounted in place.
Rod pounder.
Rod placed.
Cadweld.
Wires placed within the mould.
Meltdown disk placed.
Weld material loaded.
Tripping the shot.
Set off.



Still warm.
Cooling down.
A solid weld and excellent connection to the ground rod.
Bonded to the existing ground ring.
cadwelda.wmv 1,877,266 bytes

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20328879 Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:34:32 EDT