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halfband
Premium
join:2002-06-01
Huntsville, AL

2 edits
reply to koitsu

Re: Dont think so

said by koitsu:

I have no qualms paying a little bit more for something that's less "tainted", but Comcast doesn't work that way. They're applying said TCP injection to all customers, not those who are paying less.

So what exactly is your point?
You want A and B, you can get it, but it is a business class connection. Unfortunately, it is not a "little bit more" it is a lot more.
My point is there are tradeoffs, every choice impacts some other aspect of the system. It is very hard to do something that wins on all fronts.

You actually make an argument for comcast or other isps to develop a p2p friendly tier that supports more, un-filtered upload, but does not have the other costs associated with business level service. Probably would still be expensive, but not the obscene numbers for high reliability business class service.
--
Registered Bandwidth Offender #40812


koitsu
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23

1 recommendation

said by halfband:

You want A and B, you can get it, but it is a business class connection. Unfortunately, it is not a "little bit more" it is a lot more.
Ahh, this discussion. I go through this about once a year with someone, and it always results in the same thing: lack of acceptance.

Here's a dose of reality, from someone who works solely with "business-class" tiers (read: backbone providers such as Abovenet, Level 3, Verizon/MCI, AT&T, Telia, InterNAP, and others, a.k.a. the "big boys" who all ISPs peer with). (I'm sure espaeth See Profile will come out of the woodwork and spank me though...)

There's only two differences between a "business-class" connection and a consumer/residential connection: an SLA, and (sometimes) prior notice of maintenances.

Nothing stops your circuit (in the case of cable, your coax or related CMTS) from going down because you have a "business-class" connection. You aren't on a physically separate network. Technicians do not treat network repair any differently depending upon what "class" of customer you are. Support representatives still continue to have absolutely no clue about their own scheduled maintenances, their own downtimes, or their own outages. You go through the same rigmarole as residential users do, just talking to different people. You get the same overall cluelessness in most cases, though.

In fact, I would go so far as to say that consumer-class connections are actually better in some regards, because:

1) When there's a problem (such as TCP RST injection!), there's a significantly larger percentage of the populous who notice and complain,
2) When there's a major outage that lasts multiple hours, consumers (given the choice) will change providers. You can't do this with a business-class connection, due to contractual obligations.

The amusing part is that with commerical-grade connections, there's a significantly smaller customer base. This means chances are the customer won't notice a 30 second blip as a technician cleans some fibre.

The SLA will get you nothing more than your account representative telling you "We're sorry for the interruption in service, but it falls within our 99.5% uptime, so thanks for playing", which ultimately makes you wonder what you're really paying for.

It really isn't that much different when you have a larger pipe (e.g. a residential cable connection compared to a full OC12). It's the same bull**** regardless. Believe me, I deal with this on a daily basis!

The only time a business-class connection proves to be useful is when the provider you're getting service from provides you a direct circuit from the A to Z end, and owns the actual copper or transport medium inbetween. In that case, you can usually get someone clueful, because there's less red tape to deal with.

A real-life example would be Abovenet, who actually leases some of their backbone fibre from Level 3. Level 3 gets their fibre from OnFiber. OnFiber performs maintenance one night, and mucks something up. Level 3 "might" notice, but probably doesn't care because OnFibre told them of the maintenance. But Abovenet has no idea what's going on...

If you call Abovenet during this situation and ask "What's the deal? We pay for an OC48, and right now our SONET link to your is dark." Abovenet will spend a few hours figuring out that the circuit actually rides a Level 3-owned pair, and will contact Level 3, who will tell them "Uh, we... hmm... we'll get back to you". OnFiber finishes up their maintenance, Level 3 is happy, and suddenly the OC48 comes up. Abovenet will then call you and ask "Are you still down?" "No, but we want to know what happened anyways" "Right, uh, we'll get you an RFO in a few days..." The RFO will come, and it'll say there was a service interruption caused by "vendor maintenance".

This situation will continue to repeat itself indefinitely, and nothing ever changes. That's how the real world works, believe it or not. It's depressing, because the core of the problem is that no one cares enough to make it right.

My point is there are tradeoffs, every choice impacts some other aspect of the system. It is very hard to do something that wins on all fronts.
In that regard, I agree. Yes, there has to be trade-offs. But you must keep in mind that DSLR/BBR consists of broadband-centric visitors: people who want the Internet and ISPs to be up 24x7x365, and expect honest, reliable service. Injecting TCP RST into customers' TCP sessions based on whatever Comcast deems necessary at that moment in time is in no way honest or reliable. Thus, DSLR/BBR people bitch more, and bitch louder.

That said, it would do Comcast well to consider changing their method of throttling. Even though I pay US$70/month, I have no real qualms with throttling. I have qualms with the *method* Comcast is using. If they used packet loss or delayed RTT as a form of rate-limiting (which is common), I would be significantly happier. But falsifying packets? NO. This is not acceptable.

You actually make an argument for comcast or other isps to develop a p2p friendly tier that support more, un-filtered upload, but does not have the other costs associated with business level service. Probably would still be expensive, but not the obscene numbers for high reliability business class service.
This sounds somewhat "buzzwordish", and thus I don't understand what you said fully. I think you're referring to Comcast's recent move to work with the BitTorrent folks, hoping to keep the network traffic off their Internet-bound links and local between customers.

I FULLY support that, and I encourage it. I think it's a much better solution to the bandwidth problem, allowing Comcast to keep traffic off their Internet-bound links and local between cable customers.

All I want to see stopped is the current method of falsified TCP packet injection.


phattieg

join:2001-04-29
Winter Park, FL
I have not noticed a single problem with torrent files I receive or send to folks on the network myself. I have been trying to catch this problem in the act, but maybe since I only download a torrent about once or twice a week, and they are about 2 gigs worth of info, I guess I am not being looked at. Or perhaps the 240 gigs of data that I don't really share because I don't want to be stupid and have the **AA's at me might be the reason. I don't know, what I DO know is I don't have any issues using BitTorrent clients. And you know, I have been an Azureus user for years, opting for that over BitTorrent because I like the interface better... Maybe thats why I don't have a problem, because they have some plugin that is suppose to work around it. Well, wait, no, this topic has been going on for a long time, but yet I have only recently got that plugin, so thats not it. And Ethereal on both my Linux box and my Windows machine are not showing RST packets. Sorry for you guys and your luck, maybe you have more traffic than me... Oh well, good luck
--
SIPPhone/Gizmo # 17476200648 / PIMPNET Chatline / Ran by Asterisk & Slackware 10.1.


koitsu
Premium,MVM
join:2002-07-16
Mountain View, CA
kudos:23
said by phattieg:

I have not noticed a single problem with torrent files I receive or send to folks on the network myself.
I can't reproduce it here (in the Bay Area) either, and I've spent quite a bit of time looking at layer 2-7 packets coming in off the wire.

All this means is that Comcast doesn't have a Sandvine configured for use, or possibly even deployed, in our areas. Nothing's stopping them from doing that, however, which is why I'm so concerned. ISPs being silent about such things doesn't sit well with me...