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Forums » O Canada! » Canadian » TekSavvy » No response from Bell to CRTC? Anyone?
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CRTC to debate Bell throttling - Front Page Ottawa Citizen »
« [NEWS] Canadians Plan Net Neutrality Protest May 15  
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Taylortbb
Premium
join:2007-02-18
Waterloo, ON
·TekSavvy Solutions..


2 edits
reply to GearHead360
Re: No response from Bell to CRTC? Anyone?

That document is the biggest load of BS ever:

1) As they say, TCP has built-in congestion control mechanisms. There's no reason that one app should have priority over any other.

2) The GAS tariff does *not* reference TCP, it doesn't even reference IP! Bell is not contracted to deliver TCP packets, but rather PPPoE frames.

3) They claim they are simply looking at application headers, and then compare it to the postal system. I don't know about Bell, but I don't stamp the contents of my envelope on the outside. The only way for the postal service to determine if I'm mailing a letter, photos, a USB key, etc. would be to open the letter. DPI is no different.

4) Just because I open 100 TCP streams does *not* mean I get 100 times the bandwidth. I'm constrained by the speed on my local loop to 5Mb/s. All other users are constrained to the *same* 5Mb/s (unless your Sympatico, then it's 7Mb/s and you have an *advantage*). If someone else choses to not fully utilize their link, that's their business. It doesn't mean I should be slowed to the speed my neighbors are using.

5) What about TSI's bandwidth analysis graphs? Didn't they show P2P in second place? They CAIP should include them in their response, prove Bell's claims are bullshit.

6) What about encrypted traffic? If I've got BitTorrent encryption turned on they obviously aren't just looking at the header. The header is encrypted!

the cerberus

join:2007-10-16
Richmond Hill, ON

I don't even get where Bell's proof is. They simply restated that there's such a thing as a bandwidth hog, even if tcp is considered part of the whole pppoe frame wheres the f$%*ing evidence that P2P negatively effects the users of their network? There's just too much double speak.

Again comparing it with mail is like a nail in the coffin, mail has a DO NOT SNIFF, DO NOT OPEN, DO NOT SEARCH policy in Canada, so that was one hell of a stupid argument.

SSP

join:2007-04-30

reply to ty4link
Hmm, after looking around it was the so called experts who sated the 90% thing. I either got them confused or i cant find bell saying 90%, so I assume the former is correct, sorry. Still, they did change their tune on the stats.

link for unnamed experts calling 70-90% usage. Not that this matters since its not bell.
»www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/···ogy/home


ftthz
If love can kill hate can also save

join:2005-10-17
reply to GearHead360
wow... that's some major BS


drjp81

join:2006-01-09
canada
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..

reply to theninjasqua
said by theninjasqua See Profile :

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of people claiming that the throttling is effecting other apps and protocols... but no one seems to be getting in touch with Deadpool or contacting TS for them to get in touch with Bell to investigate.
That statement is not quite accurate in IMHO. I myself was with bell and had issues with my PPTP VPN connection. Explained the whole mess to Deadpool who said he would look into it. At the time, it was also affecting my browser speeds (per some downloads as microsoft's website).

But let's face it, he's just one man. There's just so much he can do. And for all that he has done and continues to do it still leaves most people frustrated with simply not getting what we pay for.

And I doubt that even if Deadpool did find something wring and got it fixed, that bell PR would admit they are screing around with the rest of the traffic going through their pipes.

And by thge way I am throttled at a wonderful 60kb/s.

I'm testing using diferent ubuntu torrents.
--
Cheers!


jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX

reply to GearHead360
There is a LOT to chew on. A lot of Bell's arguments are easy to destroy. But the job must still be done.

There are however a few arguments that need close attention, especially those refering to previous CRTC decisions that set precedents. It only takes one that gets the CRTC to side with Bell.

Remember that Bell now monitors those boards.


HiVolt
29
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
clubs:
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico

reply to drjp81
said by drjp81 See Profile :

said by theninjasqua See Profile :

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of people claiming that the throttling is effecting other apps and protocols... but no one seems to be getting in touch with Deadpool or contacting TS for them to get in touch with Bell to investigate.
That statement is not quite accurate in IMHO. I myself was with bell and had issues with my PPTP VPN connection. Explained the whole mess to Deadpool who said he would look into it. At the time, it was also affecting my browser speeds (per some downloads as microsoft's website).

But let's face it, he's just one man. There's just so much he can do. And for all that he has done and continues to do it still leaves most people frustrated with simply not getting what we pay for.

And I doubt that even if Deadpool did find something wring and got it fixed, that bell PR would admit they are screing around with the rest of the traffic going through their pipes.
I have spoken to Deadpool about throttling of my non-p2p app, NetOP Remote Control which I use for work. It gets throttled exactly like torrents do, at the exact same time. He had the matter investigated very quickly, Bell acknowledged that it is a false-positive, and a fix is supposed to be in testing, to be deployed shortly. When it is fixed, I will let everyone know.

Bell may be a lot of things right now, and I realize people are pissed (I am too), but if you do have problems with legit non-p2p apps and you can prove it, talk to Deadpool and he'll do his best to help.
--
GOLF LEAFS GOLF!


drjp81

join:2006-01-09
canada
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..

said by HiVolt See Profile :

Bell may be a lot of things right now, and I realize people are pissed (I am too), but if you do have problems with legit non-p2p apps and you can prove it, talk to Deadpool and he'll do his best to help.
As I said, yes he will try. And perhaps he will get things fixed. For you and others. But when we read the response to the CRTC it is clear that whether Deadpool acknowledges the existence of a problem with their throttling technique(s), Bell does not. And that was more or less what I was driving at.

Sorry if that wasn't too clear.
--
Cheers!

Radar73

join:2008-01-20
Ajax, ON

reply to GearHead360
Bell's response criticizes CAIP's complaint for a complete lack of evidence. Bell's response bases their whole argument on network congestion, to which they also offer no evidence. It's a pretty big "network management solution" to reduce P2P to 94% of what it should be over peak hours to maintain a satisfactory experience for everyone. I wonder if that oversight was on purpose, because they can't offer any evidence for a congestion problem few if any experienced. CAIP has the last word before the CRTC makes its decision. I hope they include a ton of evidence to support their original claims.


jfmezei
Premium
join:2007-01-03
Beaconsfield, QC
·ELECTRONICBOX

reply to drjp81
>As I said, yes he will try. And perhaps he will get things
>fixed. For you and others. But when we read the response to
>the CRTC it is clear that whether Deadpool acknowledges the
>existence of a problem with their throttling technique(s),
>Bell does not.

Not to diminish Deadpool's contribution here, BUT... At this point in time, you should concentrate on proving that Bell Throttling is negatively affecting you. Bell states A, if you can prove that A is wrong, then this needs to go to the CRTC with specifics. (aka: I am using application X and its throughput diminishes at 16:30 to below 30KB/s) type of message.

Bell's letter has one overriding message: there is a lack of any harm done.


andyb
Premium
join:2003-05-29
SW Ontario
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico

reply to SSP
said by SSP See Profile :

Hmm, after looking around it was the so called experts who sated the 90% thing. I either got them confused or i cant find bell saying 90%, so I assume the former is correct, sorry. Still, they did change their tune on the stats.

link for unnamed experts calling 70-90% usage. Not that this matters since its not bell.
»www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/···ogy/home
I remember 95% also.I think it was one of laslo's first speels about this issue.


HiVolt
29
Premium
join:2000-12-28
Toronto, ON
clubs:
·TekSavvy Solutions..
·Bell Sympatico

reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei See Profile :

Not to diminish Deadpool's contribution here, BUT... At this point in time, you should concentrate on proving that Bell Throttling is negatively affecting you. Bell states A, if you can prove that A is wrong, then this needs to go to the CRTC with specifics. (aka: I am using application X and its throughput diminishes at 16:30 to below 30KB/s) type of message.
I can definitely prove it, in my case. And Bell has the proof.
--
GOLF LEAFS GOLF!


drjp81

join:2006-01-09
canada
·TELUS
·TekSavvy Solutions..

reply to jfmezei
said by jfmezei See Profile :

At this point in time, you should concentrate on proving that Bell Throttling is negatively affecting you.
I would love to put that in their face. But how exactly am I supposed to do that without an official statement from a bell employee saying, exactly that.
--
Cheers!

Radar73

join:2008-01-20
Ajax, ON
reply to GearHead360
I thought independent ISPs buy bandwidth from Bell for the portion of their network they use. How can Bell sell Gig-E connections when theeir network is incapable of delivering what was paid for?


hellRaiser

@videotron.ca

reply to HiVolt
said by HiVolt See Profile :

said by jfmezei See Profile :

Not to diminish Deadpool's contribution here, BUT... At this point in time, you should concentrate on proving that Bell Throttling is negatively affecting you. Bell states A, if you can prove that A is wrong, then this needs to go to the CRTC with specifics. (aka: I am using application X and its throughput diminishes at 16:30 to below 30KB/s) type of message.
I can definitely prove it, in my case. And Bell has the proof.
Hivolt you are such the hell-raiser.

I hope you forwarded your proof to Rocky.

if you haven't, then pls do.


Candoo3

join:2005-01-24
·TekSavvy Solutions..

reply to drjp81
said by drjp81 See Profile :

said by jfmezei See Profile :

At this point in time, you should concentrate on proving that Bell Throttling is negatively affecting you.
I would love to put that in their face. But how exactly am I supposed to do that without an official statement from a bell employee saying, exactly that.
If you have net based apps that are *essential* to you or your work, and they are being throttled, then you have a bitch. Not talking BT. Keep a log of the app's and when they are throttled. Bell states it *should* only be P2P that's affected. YOU should know if you're having problems.


nanook
Premium,MVM
join:2007-12-02
·Bell Sympatico
·TekSavvy Solutions..

reply to GearHead360
Bell insists throttling Internet services necessary
Technology expert Jesse Hirsch says Bell's argument before the CRTC is bewildering - and bad news for consumers. He says Bell is acknowledging it failed to anticipate the growth of the Internet, and is now penalizing innovative users who are turning to the web to swap TV shows and movies. "They say their service is at capacity, they admit that. As a subscriber and shareholder, you have to ask yourself, 'How did this come about?'"

The solution shouldn't be to curb innovative uses of the Internet by "savvy young people who are doing an end run around Bell ExpressVu and Rogers Cable," but rather invest more in infrastructure to accommodate these users. "Here we have an example of a company that, based on its historical monopoly, is now regulating the Internet in their own interest, against the interest of innovation, which is in the public good. That's why, from the beginning, the argument that the Internet is at capacity is total propaganda."


canadian_bishop

@telus.net

reply to GearHead360
This article pretty much sums up why throttling/shaping is a bad idea. It is a bit US-centric, but it applies to every country. It's about 4pgs but a quick and excellent read and well worth it:

»arstechnica.com/articles/culture···ning.ars

Pleasant reading....

P.S.: I posted this in the "response to bell's response" thread too.

I would love to hear any carrier/ISP responses to this.


theninjasqua

join:2007-09-26
Oakville, ON

reply to HiVolt
We definitely need to start making a list of known protocals and apps that are being effected by this, especially ones that have been raised by us to Deadpool. I know for sure there are some threads in the Sympatico forum about this, including one made by Deadpool confirming issues with Ventrilo and saying that it was fixed. Might as well gather all this to include as part of the response, unless Bell went through their forum and deleted it.
--

-theninjasquad

Name96

join:2008-03-28


2 edits
Based on prior forum posts, these are the effected protocols:

RealVNC
»Re: Well, now I cant get my work emails...
»Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2...

Cisco VPN (IPSEC)
»Well, now I cant get my work emails...
»IPSEC VPN Throttled!!!

SIP VoIP
»Re: Update on throttling issue...
»Re: Globe and mail request for people to speak to about issue
»VOIP in the presence of throttling
»Re: Users of VoIP

SSH
»Re: Update on Throttling: Part 2...
»Re: Teksavvy's throttling now? Just a vent, nothing is needed.

RDP
»Re: Usenet downloads affect by shaping?
»Terminal Services Wonky?
Forums » O Canada! » Canadian » TekSavvyCRTC to debate Bell throttling - Front Page Ottawa Citizen »
« [NEWS] Canadians Plan Net Neutrality Protest May 15  
page: 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8


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