Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... in http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r20370037 en Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:54:43 EDT Wed, 02 Dec 2009 10:54:43 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20382953 LegoPower77 : Fair enough, with qualifications, of course.

The history of regulation shows that firms lobbied for it when competition reduced their profits. In 1897 the National Electric Light Assn. began lobbying for regulation and for "fair profit" price controls by the various states only after upstart firms had started taking some of their market share.

The same scenario for the telephone industry. Actually, the first states to adopt regulation were the ones that had low profits and high output. The effects of these regulations were to increase price and reduce output.

Another effect of regulation, in every case it seems, is that a company seeking to enter a market has to first get a license from the state. And therein could be the reason for our monopolies/duopolies—in my area, Comcast has exclusive rights. Why?

In a market with no artificial barriers to entry, the "monopoly" firm always always has to guard against upstart competitors seeking a part of the monopoly profit (which is why you'd never see $200/month broadband at this time).

And the natural barriers—the high start-up costs—can be mitigated by the speculative/futures markets. (Perhaps not a panacea, but something to consider.)

Again, it should be stated that the incumbents benefit from heavy regulation because they have the economies of scale to overcome the increased compliance costs.

The problem with price controls is that they create the wrong incentives for the firm. Government pricing is based on historical prices, not the current technology.

If an industry is unregulated, when there are rapid technological advances, the old facilities become obsolete before their historical cost is fully depreciated. Firms abandon obsolete facilities sooner than if there had been no advancement.

But under a planned regime, the older facilities are protected by the averaging of their cost with the cheaper newer facilities into the rate structure. This has two effects that are exactly the opposite of what advocates of regulation say they want.

First, since the older facilities are not abandoned and their cost is averaged with the newer ones, the price does not go down as quickly as it would if the old facility were abandoned altogether (assuming the new technology makes the product cheaper).

Second, because the bargain for the licensee is they're given a government-secured market, firms are more willing to try risky new technologies because they are less sensitive to cost overruns; and since the consumer is made to pay for it anyway. . .

Firms operating under regulation are less motivated to control costs than they would be in a competitive market and they do not abandon their older, inefficient facilities as readily.

The point of all of this is that it's better to live with a temporary monopoly, subject to free entry, then to have Leviathan with threat of force limiting our choices and stifling innovation.
--
"It is a melancholy reflection that liberty should be equally exposed to danger whether the government have too much or too little power."—James Madison
It's right, it's free.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20382953 Thu, 24 Apr 2008 22:46:24 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376454 anon : "Were an a lose-lose situation here. I just don't see how some regulatory board is a panacea."

I agree.
It isn't meant to be a panacea. It's meant to provide some counterbalancing force to try to slow the process of things getting worse.

Where I disagree is in the belief that regulation is always worse than the problem it tries to cure.

It's important for anyone who wants to understand the net neutrality issue to understand that no one started out wanting net neutrality regulation. It has never been anyone's ideal solution to anything. Net neutrality is a rear guard action to mitigate against the results of trends that some have been warning against for years, namely that as competition diminished, we abandoned the TA96 framework, and the old regulatory regime(such as common carriage) was dismantled, that the de facto neutrality of the net would be under assault as power was consolidated(over 95% of small business and residential broadband access is controlled by two companies in any given location, the area's telco and cableco).

As a result we now have essentially oligopoly with neither the restraints that would be imposed by a competitive market nor the restraints that were previously imposed by government. This is indeed a mess that it will be very difficult for us to extract ourselves from.

I think we have to weigh the risks of unintended consequences from regulation against the fact that if we impose no boundaries the behavior of these companies is likely to get worse. Frankly companies are much like children testing the boundaries to see how much they will be allowed to get by with. They try something and look up to see if society is going to do anything about it. If society doesn't do anything about it they try something more. If there is no robust competition to reign them in and the society shows no interest in setting limits then what is the likely result going to be?

Net neutrality isn't a fix for anything. I do think, however, it will slow down the ill intentioned and may allow us to avoid the worst consequences of the problems we have brought on ourselves. Hopefully in the meanwhile we will develop other effective longer term solutions.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376454 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 20:11:38 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376356 bicker : Oh my gosh, the entitlement mentality just continues to get piled on, higher and higher. "Give me. Give me. Give me. Take from them." Despicable. I've never seen a thicker display of self-absorbed liberalism. Incredible.

No one is adding anything of value to this thread any more -- just saying the same things over and over again in different ways, as if it makes a difference. So many of you are just too caught up in your perspectives to recognize the reality. Nuf Sed. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376356 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:54:11 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376324 anon : Are we trying to get at truth or are we trying to be pro-american? The two things aren't always the same.

It's interesting that you feel that way because my statements are nothing more than a restatement of your own claims above, namely that one is always free and empowered because one always has the choice of nothing as a substitute for something.

]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376324 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:47:18 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376268 anon : "Barriers to entry don't constitute any obligation owed to you."

I don't know why you are accusing me of making such an argument. That isn't my argument.

"There are multiple suppliers in areas where sufficient profit motive is offered"

Again you ignore the way things like network effects and first mover advantage drastically alters the economic calculations for those wishing to enter the market after the first mover is established and impose a quite different set of costs on those trying to compete with the dominant player.

Is "sufficient profit" something that is probable or even possible or is it something absurd?

Of course any barriers can be overcome by an extreme enough set of circumstances(such as if everyone was willing to pay a million dollars a month for an internet connection) but that doesn't mean such things will happen with any set of probable real world parameters. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20376268 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 19:34:04 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20375896 KrK :
said by bicker See Profile :

Blah blah blah. Another "I want give me" perspective. Yet you probably have no qualms about exploiting whatever benefits a healthy economy affords YOU, like JOBS.
Ya, we should be so lucky to have have a JOB. I know, we should work for free in thanks to the mighty company for employing us, and providing us the benefits of the "healthy economy."

Do you really believe the stuff you shovel?
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20375896 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 18:15:38 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20375399 qworster : Yeah..

Satellite: Too slow on uploads and latency makes it useless for VOIP.

T-1 Cheapest I can find is 380.00 a month for 1500/1500 service.

Wireless: Yes, there are several wireless providers in LA. The cheapest one is over 100 dollars a month and offers 1500/384 service.

Dial up: Maybe. With all the throttling going on, it might end up being FASTER then cable or DSL!

You sound like you believe that broadband should only be available to the elite that can afford it. BULL$HIT!
Broadband should be available to EVERYONE...and in many countries it is!

If you're an American and so concerned about your country, then consider this: The USA is quickly becoming a third world country technology/Internet wise, and attitudes like yours only make it happen worse and faster!]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20375399 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 16:38:13 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20374496 bicker : You are the first person in this thread to make any valid points, but even then, you're just raising matters for which reasonable people disagree, and both sides can claim that they're "right" and the other side is "wrong".

I don't talk about government guaranteeing securities because I believe it is WRONG.

If you really believe that this should be a utility, consider how much you'll pay in taxes to have the government acquire the assets via eminent domain. If you're not willing to pay that amount, then any kind of mid-range solution to the issue, such as regulation, is just a selfish grab for someone else's assets.

Let it happen to your assets and see how much YOU like it.

Your third-party long distance carriers example is irrelevant. That's not what is happening here. There aren't competing HSI services running on the cable. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20374496 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:57:35 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20374459 bicker : Your personal attacks "evince" no special wisdom or knowledge either. Your message here provides nothing of value. It is just another denial of the reality that I've outlined.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20374459 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:52:12 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20374452 bicker : Competition is not blocked. That's a cop-out business-haters use to distort the issue. Competition is what it is, and it is what it is because that's how much profit there is in offering competing services.

You call it "pro-consumer regulation" but what it really is is Big Brother interfering with business. And look at the REALITY... thirty years and counting of a pro-business perspective in this country and there are still people like you who refuse to acknowledge it. Even the Democrats are pro-business now. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20374452 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 13:51:19 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20373963 clickie : And Laisez-Faire capitalism is the staunch conservative's answer to everything. One look at the unrestrained nonsense caused by the repeal of Glass-Steagall showed how well that works out. We've been given the rewards of the *exact* same crap that caused the Great Depression.

You can't create wealth by selling bags of risk that are comprised of a mixture of mortgage securities written to people who are not likely to pay it back and damned certain not to pay it back. Yet that's exactly what happened and the economy takes another shot in the back because of unrestrained highly leveraged speculation -- things that were hard to do before 2000 because of the risks to everyone else who has to swim in the same pool.

Of course, the solution to this problem is to just let the market sort it out. But the government stepped in and has been guaranteeing these securities -- a decidedly LIBERAL thing to do for a bunch of people who should lose their investments just the same way that people are losing their homes. But you don't talk much about that, do you -- since socialistic assistance is fine as long as it benefits the wealthy.

Back on topic, these services are less and less discretionary and more utility. "Doing without" is, in many cases, becoming harder and harder just as "doing without" was harder and harder as electricity, telephone and natural gas lines made their way into consumer homes. If Comcast can't provide unfettered access, they need to be regulated. Period. And that goes for every other ISP.

Would you tolerate AT&T knocking the volume down on a call you placed through a third-party long distance carrier? I doubt "Well sir, it's our wires, we can do what we want" would be an acceptable answer if you complained. Yet that's exactly the power you're granting to Comcast. It's their pipes, don't like it, don't use them. That's not an acceptable situation because it's no longer just a "service". It's a utility used for online banking, education, communication and entertainment.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20373963 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 12:27:38 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20373290 TScheisskopf : Yours is no "true American perspective" by any metric other than those passed back and forth in the dark fever swamps of Internet discourse.

You evince no special wisdom or knowledge here. In fact, you evince an ignorance that is impressive. We are paying for the service. Thus, we have a voice.

And don't trot out that trope about "Well, go to another provider". Over the last 8 years, this administration has gutted the parts of the telecom deregulation act that would have allowed true competition and most areas of the US have to deal with natural monopolies and no choice save one.

Sir, one gets the impression you know very little of which you speak, except for a few shopworn and tired phrases.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20373290 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 10:14:41 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20373000 RainWind : People have no alternative options because competition is blocked. You argument really holds no water, you just seem to like telling people they have a childish "give me now" mentality when that isn't even the case.

We either need more regulation or the government needs to piss off and let other companies move in to compete when and how they please. No more slapping Verizon's hand for offering special deals to customer's who have initiated a port out request. No blocking of new competition. No more regulating what a company can charge. Telco's can't just drop their pricing at will to compete with cable.

All people are asking for is a little pro-consumer regulation because one company is given a monopoly in an specific area and there is no alternate provider because of it.

The blame is not on the consumers. The problem is regulation and the local government pushing away competition. Your argument might have a point, if it wasn't for the fact that the reason competition doesn't move in has to do with government and regulation. Verizon can't just waltz into a town and start laying fiber.

Either competition needs to stop getting cock blocked, or the government needs to go one step further with regulation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20373000 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:59:39 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372835 anon : cable and dsl companies normally sublease their network to other companies..

Bell Canada here subleases to several other companies, I'm currently using Acanac, which is bell sympatico but without bell's restrictions (port 25 being blocked, and whatever else)

Apparently rogers canada does the same (cable)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372835 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 08:02:01 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372691 bicker :
said by LegoPower77 See Profile :

While I don't like Comcast throttling content, it's worse to have a government agent with the power of the police dictating the marketplace.
100% correct. People here seem to want everything their way and so are pushing for things that will make THEIR OWN options WORSE. Too many simply don't understand the negative impact such regulation has on business, and how THEY will lose as a result.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372691 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:26:50 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372689 bicker : Blah blah blah. Another "I want give me" perspective. Yet you probably have no qualms about exploiting whatever benefits a healthy economy affords YOU, like JOBS. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372689 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:24:58 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372688 bicker : I don't get paid anything to post. I do it for leisure. It is interesting to see so many selfish people posting their "I want give me" diatribes, and hopefully my posting will give someone among you the push towards a true American perspective.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372688 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:23:59 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372685 bicker : Barriers to entry don't constitute any obligation owed to you. There are multiple suppliers in areas where sufficient profit motive is offered. So the blame for a lack of suppliers of the specific type of Internet service you want, high-speed Internet, rests squarely on CONSUMERS resisting those offerings at the price they're being offered at.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372685 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:21:04 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372683 bicker : Your statements are un-American, asdfdfdfdfdf.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372683 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:19:20 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372679 bicker : There are dozens of ways to get "the Internet". We're talking about high-speed Internet, and there are even several ways to get that these days too... IF YOU'RE WILLING TO PAY FOR THEM. Your unwillingness to pay does not constitute anything other than what it is.

I defend it because I'm an American. How come you ATTACK it?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372679 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:15:43 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372677 bicker : What a cop-out Dan. Meanwhile, despite what you've said, other companies have built networks where there was sufficient profit motive to do so.

Folks need to stop blaming others for things that they're not owed... like THIS.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372677 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 06:14:09 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372388 TScheisskopf : I would love to point out that I have been following this very closely. Thoughts for you to remember about Smith:

"When the regulation is in support of the workman, it is always just and equitable — but it is sometimes otherwise when in favour of the masters." - Adam Smith

The distinguished American economist John Kenneth Galbraith said about "The Wealth of Nations:" “It is much celebrated by the ministry of the righteous right, few of whom have read it." (Source: Sherrod Brown, The Globalist)

And as far as putting forward the trope that the bad loans that were written were somehow the fault of the people in potentially redlined districts, that is risable. The sins of the very-less-than-optimally-regulated(and even criminal) mortgage industry, in league with a credit derivatives market run amok and crazed caused the collection of situations we now face and there is a direct cause and effect relationship to the repeal of Glass-Steagall. Hell, even that noted barotone in the Red Army Chorus, Hank Paulson, admits that much more regulation is needed. I would add that I don't know where you got this idea that the victims are in fact at fault, because that is what the redlining argument intimates, but I would cast a very baleful eye at such transparent sophistry, were I you. It's one thing to redline, another to invest in inner cities and minority communities and what we are now reaping the fruits of has nothing at all to do with either.

And yes, markets correct. Depressions and recessions are market corrections writ all too large. Andrew Mellon, when asked what a depression is, stated "It is when money returns to its rightful owners". Surely, the same can be said of recessions. If we are really lucky, that is all we are in the early days of experiencing, a recession. But I find it hard to believe that anyone other than a doctrinaire corporate lickspittle could look at the lay of the land and say "Hey! I know EXACTLY what will fix things! Less regulation and more Laffer Curve!".

I mean, even Laffer admits he might have gotten things a bit wrong. I hope such honesty is the start of a trend.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20372388 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 01:56:11 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371840 LegoPower77 :
said by TScheisskopf See Profile :

Man, always lots of doctrine and a paucity of factual information from the dereg crowd.
Man, there's always a lot of cherry-picking from the government-cures-all crowd.

The 1700s concept of regulation was where the state acts as a traffic cop making sure the rules are enforced. 21st Century regulation is government dictating the shape of the market.

Adam Smith's view of regulation was in the negative sense, i.e., we have only the obligation not to encumber people in their pursuits.

It's quite a twist of logic to pick out his use of the term and say it means that governments need to direct every last aspect of the marketplace (and if you say you're not advocating that, then we agree: there is a point where there is too much government action).

The other logical fallacy of yours is the Post hoc ergo propter hoc. You have said that if we hadn't repealed Glass-Stegal then there would be no recession. Of course we can't prove a negative.

It's simply not fair to lay every perceived bad occurrence at the feet of deregulation. As with most economic problems, we find the hand of government. The Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, whose provisions were strengthened during the Clinton administration, is a federal law that mandates lenders to offer credit throughout their entire market and discourages them from restricting their credit services to high-income markets, a practice known as redlining. In other words, the Community Reinvestment Act encourages banks and thrifts to make loans to riskier customers. But of course they were not allowed to charge a higher rate to offset the risk.

The apostles of big government and those who argue for freedom have an impasse. While the pro-regulators say we need to prevent any and all economic downturns, the free market person recognizes that markets correct and that risky/bad decisions have negative consequences and through the reward and punishment machinations of the marketplace, the best outcome is reached over time.
--
"It is a melancholy reflection that liberty should be equally exposed to danger whether the government have too much or too little power."—James Madison
It's right, it's free.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371840 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 23:26:48 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371684 KrK : Actually, I'm not a big fan of heavy handed regulation either.

Personally, I'm a fan of open competition and consumer choice.... However, in industries such as these, with such high barriers to entry, there needs to be government leadership to either 1) Allow competition to break into the market (Such as the 1996 Communication Act was doing before it was attacked, rolled back, and finally killed) or 2) Keeping a watchful eye on the incumbents to make sure they don't get out of hand.

We've got neither ATM.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371684 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:56:16 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371659 LegoPower77 : Were an a lose-lose situation here. I just don't see how some regulatory board is a panacea. After all, don't you command-and-control people hate the FCC right about now? It's not as if some group of government planners are not susceptible to corruption and greed just the same as corporate profiteers.

While I don't like Comcast throttling content, it's worse to have a government agent with the power of the police dictating the marketplace.

Friedrich Hayek points out in his essay
    The Meaning of Competition
, “Enthusiasm for perfect competition in theory and the support of monopoly in practice are indeed surprisingly often found to live together.” (emphasis added). The reason for this is that people get so caught-up in trying to make everything “competitive” that they end up distorting the market by excessive regulation, which drives high-cost producers out and discourages would-be competitors from entering (not to mention discouraging innovation because of limiting profits).

Regulation makes people beholden to a politically connected commission (evil lobbying), favors large corporations because they can handle the increased compliance costs, and leads us down the road to serfdom. Whatever good the aims of regulation are, it always ends up maintaining the power of the planners themselves. A society that cedes its development to an organized commission will always be limited by what the minds of the planners can grasp.
--
"It is a melancholy reflection that liberty should be equally exposed to danger whether the government have too much or too little power."—James Madison
It's right, it's free.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371659 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:51:23 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371642 KrK :
said by TScheisskopf See Profile :

Now, where do you get those neat "epic fail" pictures?
De-regulation and allowing the Big Players to "Self-Govern"...


--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371642 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:46:54 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371618 KrK :
said by qworster See Profile :

In other words, You're being screwed! How come that doesn't upset you? How come you even DEFEND it? Are you a masochist?
I suspect he's more on the side of the SCREWER then the side of the SCREWEE if you get my drift.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371618 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:41:55 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371614 TScheisskopf : Even Adam Smith said that Capitalism requires regulation to mitigate the baser instinct of men and their greed. Adam Smith. You know, The Big Kahuna of Capitalism? Surely, you have heard of him?

Besides, look around, like at the mortgage market and petroleum prices and their effects on the economy at large: deregulation really worked out swimmingly there, didn't it? Deregulation like the repeal of The Glass-Steagall Act, wherein the taxpayers are picking up the tab for the "unintended effects" and the complete lack of regulation on the hedge funds and credit markets..

Man, always lots of doctrine and a paucity of factual information from the dereg crowd.

Now, where do you get those neat "epic fail" pictures?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371614 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:41:10 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371597 KrK :
said by TKJunkMail See Profile :

Then take your business elsewhere.
Ok I had DSL. I took my business elsewhere, to Cable. Next? Wireless? Not available? Satellite? Not feasible or economical. Other option, "Do without?" Yeah, ok. Nope. Bring on the Government. Real competition, or regulation. Enough of this non-competition unregulated BS.
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371597 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:37:27 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371584 KrK :
said by bicker See Profile :

Heavy regulation is the liberals solution to everything. :uhh:
Riding roughshod over the public good and consumers and granted unregulated monopolies all in the interests of GREED and MONEY seem to be the conservatives answer to everything... and what does it get us... crashing economy, out of control energy prices, wars, pollution, corruption, scandal, and the downfall of our nation. Yeah yeah, I know, I should just fork over my money and shut up.... but I'm not going to. Screw that. You can't have it both ways... Either allow open competition, or face regulation....
--
"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371584 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:34:14 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371560 TScheisskopf : "Entitlement Mentality"??!! How much do you get paid to post tripe like this? You have to be getting paid, because no sane person would post something like this without a paycheck coming to assuage the humiliation and ignominy of attaching one's name such a post.

You are goddamned right I feel "entitled" to what I pay for, and I intend to keep doing so until I draw my final breath.

Man, the things the half-baked children of Ayn Rand will attempt around here. The mind boggles.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20371560 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 22:31:27 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370860 anon : "what they're offering is the best any supplier is willing to provide you."

You completely ignore the effects of market power and the way that such conditions can lock out competitors. There can be enormous barriers to entry for new businesses. This has nothing to do with what a supplier is willing to do and everything to do with whether one has any chance of overcoming the advantages that previous entrants have in the market.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370860 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:36:16 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370739 anon : Not having a communications business is always an alternative to having a communications business. Therefore the government has no power to burden business. You can always escape regulation; stop doing business. If you don't like the regulatory environment become a janitor.

I have just proven that business is entirely free and unencumbered, no matter what the regulatory situation.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370739 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 20:22:18 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370462 qworster :
said by bicker See Profile :

You pay them good money for what they promise you, not for what you want. There is no monopoly -- that's just entitlement mentality talking about. You can escape anytime you want: Do without.
These days, the Internet is a NECESSITY! It should be regulated, just like any other public utility.
Don't believe me? How about this:

Many govt. agencies (including the FCC) REQUIRE filngs to be done electronically. You CAN'T file using snail mail any more!

The IRS 'encourages' you to file your taxes electronically. How long before THEY require electronic filing?

Many employers REQUIRE you to apply for jobs online.

Many local govt. agencies have made it harder to do things without the Internet. Registering to vote or renew your driver's license for example.

We PAY for Interent service. We pay MORE then many other countries for slower service then they offer! In other words, You're being screwed! How come that doesn't upset you? How come you even DEFEND it? Are you a masochist?]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370462 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:08:06 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370441 Dan888 : Most of the nation have had these companies lobby to make sure that there are laws in place that prevents newcomers from attempting to build a network. Also, a good deal of the funding for building the current internet came from the government, however many of these funds were used for other things rather than being invested into their networks.]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370441 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:04:40 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370384 TKJunkMail :
said by KrK See Profile :

Personally, consumers should not just take this crap. They *need* to raise holy hell about it, because the companies sure aren't going to act in their best interests just out of the goodness of their hearts.
Then take your business elsewhere. You don't need the government to be your nanny. Or do you?
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My BLOG .. .. Internet News .. .. My Web Page]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370384 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:55:33 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370334 bicker : If you don't like the terms and conditions, then don't patronize them. Find a better supplier. If there aren't any, than ACCEPT what they're offering is the best any supplier is willing to provide you.

Consumers have the ultimate control: Don't purchase the service. That'll communicate your dissatisfaction better than anything else you can possibly do or say. It is THE manner in which consumers affect the market.

More competition will come from there being a GREATER profit motive, not a LESSER profit motive.

Heavy regulation is the liberals solution to everything. :uhh:]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370334 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:47:22 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370279 KrK :
said by bicker See Profile :

You pay them good money for what they promise you, not for what you want. There is no monopoly -- that's just entitlement mentality talking about. You can escape anytime you want: Do without.
Yeah, do without.

There's your choice for the economic future of the USA. Go back to the Stone-age and do without modern technology. Better idea: Regulate the industry. If it won't accept regulation, seize it and nationalize it.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370279 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:37:30 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370260 KrK :
said by bicker See Profile :

You pay them good money for what they promise you,
They keep changing the rules. The put in a clause saying "We can do whatever we want."

Than later on, they add in throttling, shaping, blocking, filtering, Caps, overage charges, etc etc. Oh they know you'll be pissed, but they know as long as the other choice (be it DSL or cable) does it too that you are screwed.

Personally, consumers should not just take this crap. They *need* to raise holy hell about it, because the companies sure aren't going to act in their best interests just out of the goodness of their hearts. It's quite simple, either we have real competition, and many choices, OR WE NEED HEAVY REGULATION. Period. Right now we get the WORST of both worlds: Almost total deregulation, hands-off attitude, AND a lack of competition. This is the perfect recipe for abuse, and that's what's happening.... Abuse.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370260 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:34:51 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370227 bicker : You pay them good money for what they promise you, not for what you want. There is no monopoly -- that's just entitlement mentality talking about. You can escape anytime you want: Do without. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370227 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 18:30:27 EDT Re: Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370037 KrK : Entitlement my ass. I pay them good money for internet service.... Just because they are a monopoly or duopoly and know we can't readily escape their clutches I don't like being told that we will obey and be mindless little slavesumers and will only be allowed to access and pay for their services because they will block the rest (Oh, I mean 'Manage the network'.)

Screw that. Manage their stock options is more like it.
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"Regulatory capitalism is when companies invest in lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians, instead of plant, people, and customer service." - former FCC Chairman William Kennard (A real FCC Chairman, unlike the current Corporate Spokesperson in the job!)]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20370037 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:54:51 EDT Build your own network if you're unhappy... http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20369999 bicker : It never ceases to amaze me the sense of entitlement people have. It isn't your network. It's their network. Their house, their rules. Perhaps Martin is back-pedaling because he's realized -- OH YEAH! -- he's a Republican and he's not supposed to believe in regulating the profit out of businesses. ]]> http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,20369999 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 17:47:43 EDT