CanadianISP
Premium
join:2008-04-09
Beachburg, ON
|  Is your VoIP or VPN affected by Bell's throttling practices?
Tell the CRTC what problems you are experiencing as a result of Bell's throttling practices. Here is what you need to do:
1) click on the following link: »support.crtc.gc.ca/crtcsubmissio···x?lang=e
2) Select "Part VII/PN" from the drop down list
3) Insert the CRTC file number (# 8622-C51-200805153) into the "Subject" Line and
4) In the "Description / Comments / Questions" box, explain how your VoIP and VPN services (or any other services/applications) have been affected by Bell's throttling practices.
--
Marc Bissonnette
Chief BOFH
»www.canadianisp.com |
|
tertech
join:2008-04-12
Greely, ON
| How would I know for sure?
So my VPN remote desktop connection to the office turns grey, and the Integrity server boots me off. Is that because of throttling, or a glitch in the office LAN, or just an ADSL sync problem?
Is there a tool that will categorically pin the problem on Bell's tampering with my data? |
|
time it
@videotron.ca | if this only happens between 4-pm and 2-am, its Bells throttle causing it.
otherwise its a different problem. |
|
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | reply to CanadianISP
Good idea! |
|
CanadianISP
Premium
join:2008-04-09
Beachburg, ON
| reply to tertech
Generally, if you've only noticed a marked degradation in your services after March 17th, the chances are *highly* likely that it is Bell's doing.
In a nutshell, they're doing to all of their competitors what they chose to do to their own users: "If *WE* don't offer unlimited service, then neither can anyone else!" - In schoolyard parlance, it would be "Screw you guys, I'm taking my marbles and going home"
Bell can choose to either be a neutral wholesaler or a fair competitor in the market: Dictatorial ruler of the Canadian internet spectrum is *not* an option for them and we need to ensure both they and the government that regulates them knows it.
--
Marc Bissonnette
Chief BOFH
»www.canadianisp.com |
|
tertech
join:2008-04-12
Greely, ON
| As much as I dislike the idea of anyone purposely interfering with my ability to do my job, I could not in good conscience make such an accusation without some compelling evidence. Isn't that just the thing we are accusing them of doing with their statement of 5% of users taking xx% of bandwidth?
Is there a software utility like 'Ethereal' that could determine if a packet was purposely dropped or delayed? I think that would be difficult to prove, given the complexity of the network.
BTW... I got a call this evening from Bell trying to get me to switch to Sympatico. I responded like he was trying to sell me leprosy. The guy was taken aback; he didn't know what to say. |
|
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | I agree... be sure it's affecting you. False claims are going to undermine what Marc said at the start in my mind.
--
TSI Rocky - TekSavvy Solutions Inc. |
|
CanerisErik
Premium
join:2007-10-03
Toronto, ON
| reply to tertech
said by tertech  :Is there a software utility like 'Ethereal' that could determine if a packet was purposely dropped or delayed? Let's consider two possible ways in which the throttling can be done.
If they're sending RSTs, you'd see "more" (very relative and loose) RSTs than during non-throttled times when doing the same thing, but this isn't a guarantee because you can't prove it's not something else causing it.
If they're dropping or delaying ACKs or other data, you'd have "more" retransmits, but again, you can't differentiate that easily from a congested router for example.
I can't think of a way to determine for certain using a packet sniffer if they're throttling. |
|
Name
join:2008-03-28
| It's a bit hard to do TCP RST forgery on UDP or ESP streams. 
Bell is most likely delaying packets in transit.
--
Coridon Henshaw -=- »www.talisiorder.ca |
|
CanerisErik
Premium
join:2007-10-03
Toronto, ON
| said by Name :It's a bit hard to do TCP RST forgery on UDP or ESP streams. Bell is most likely delaying packets in transit. Yes, it is a bit hard
But keep in mind that the majority of P2P is TCP-based, not UDP-based and supposedly that's their focus.
Furthermore, their largely irrelevant response to the CAIP had a funny appendix there teaching everyone "how TCP works" and "how the Internet works", when the issue has zero to do with the Internet and with TCP.
So, it sounds like they're focused on TCP. Perhaps dropping ACKs. |
|
dbenne00
join:2008-01-18
Whitby, ON | reply to CanadianISP
My VPN is affected by Bell's B.S. They're screwing up my opportunity to work from home. My upload drops from 560 to 80kbps when they engage their throttling.
I have complained to the CRTC. |
|
tertech
join:2008-04-12
Greely, ON
| said by dbenne00 :My VPN is affected by Bell's B.S. They're screwing up my opportunity to work from home. My upload drops from 560 to 80kbps when they engage their throttling. I have complained to the CRTC. How have you determined that the drop in speed is as a result of Bell's tampering? I would also like to 'stick it to them' for adversely affecting my ability to work from home. Do you have some kind of network tool that I could run also?
My fear is that they could deny throttling VPN and use the fact that you're experiencing slow speeds as a justification for throttling the evil P2P villains, and make themselves the hero of the story.
|
|
proof enough
@videotron.ca
| said by tertech :How have you determined that the drop in speed is as a result of Bell's tampering? I would also like to 'stick it to them' for adversely affecting my ability to work from home. Do you have some kind of network tool that I could run also? My fear is that they could deny throttling VPN and use the fact that you're experiencing slow speeds as a justification for throttling the evil P2P villains, and make themselves the hero of the story. If it happens during the time of the throttle, between 4:30pm and 2:00am, and its ok the rest of the time, thats proof enough. |
|
R0CKY
TSI Rocky
Premium,VIP
join:2005-05-19
Chatham, ON | Oish... |
|
teksavvycustomer
@tac.net | reply to CanadianISP
Thanks for the complaint guide. Added my comment on the CRTC site. Everyone should stand up to the large corporations - only if everyone complains can we make a difference. It only takes 5 minutes to write a comment.
Cheers! |
|
dbenne00
join:2008-01-18
Whitby, ON
 ·Bell Sympatico
·Acanac Inc.
| reply to tertech
said by tertech :How have you determined that the drop in speed is as a result of Bell's tampering? I would also like to 'stick it to them' for adversely affecting my ability to work from home. Do you have some kind of network tool that I could run also? My fear is that they could deny throttling VPN and use the fact that you're experiencing slow speeds as a justification for throttling the evil P2P villains, and make themselves the hero of the story. It's as simple as doing a speed test at speedtest.net and monitoring your upload speed throughout the day. If you are being throttled, you will see a pattern.
I persoanlly am not out to stick it to *them*, but rather I am trying to get them to stop sticking it to *me*. LOL. |
|
tertech
join:2008-04-12
Greely, ON
edit:
May 2nd, @09:22PM
| reply to R0CKY
said by R0CKY :Oish... Oish? Isn't that Japanese slang for 'delicious' Rocky?
In Bell's response to the CAIP complaint they claimed...
- it has not been presented with any evidence that its Internet traffic management solution is having any impact on VPN or VoIP traffic;
Rather then saying outright "we are not", they are saying "you can't prove we are". Slimy bastards! I would just love to be able to present some irrefutable evidence. So far, all I see here is anecdotal situations that can be explained away by other factors; not the least of which is their assertion that the Internet is clogged during those hours by P2P'ers.
As long as it is believed that they are only affecting "copyright pirates", I'm sorry, but I just can't see the public at large being outraged by their actions. If it can be proven that they also are hindering people in the normal course of their job, that might stir some indignation. Outrage might still be too much to expect.
Is there anything Teksavvy can do to create a testbed? Set up a VPN service that several test customers can connect to and exchange data back and forth all day. If the VPN is located at your POP, then the only link is a direct connection between you and the client over the facility you lease from Bell. If the VPN traffic is slowed during the throttle hours when the overall bandwidth usage can be measured as moderate, that would prove that the VPN traffic is being slowed by artificial means rather than congestion. Heck, you could even ask everybody to not P2P on a certain day, and take the measurements then.
Does this make any sense, or has my indignation clouded my logic? |
|
ibean
join:2006-11-21
Toronto, ON
| reply to CanadianISP
In the last few weeks I've noticed shaping of torrents and, for two evenings, my encrypted SSL connection (port 995) to Gmail. The shaping hasn't been in effect every day, but when it is, it's clear and unmistakable. When Bell started shaping me three weeks ago, I started a torrent that's been running 24/7 ever since which allows me to observe the shaping.
As far as VoIP protocols go, I haven't noticed any Bell-induced packet degradation or shaping so far over my Teksavvy DSL connection. Even when I'm using VoIP at the same time my torrent is being shaped, I haven't had any problems. It hasn't affected my ability to use Link2VoIP, or any direct VoIP links to my friends. One VoIP link I've been watching carefully is my Asterisk server's connection to a friend's Asterisk server who's also on Tekasavvy DSL. They live a few kilometers away in central Toronto, on a different CO. The route between us is perfect for testing/probing the shaping because it's so direct (one hop over a Teksavvy ERX and that's it). But I haven't detected anything nefarious VoIP-wise and my throttling antennae are on full-alert. No problems with SIP, RTP, sRTP, IAX2 or STUN.
In practical terms though, it makes no sense to throttle SIP or STUN since it's just control information. RTP and IAX2 carry voice data, and that's what would be most vulnerable to throttling. But neither really use much bandwidth. One conversation for instance, using G711 ulaw, is going to use 2x64Kbit/s or 16KB/s. That's about half of Bell's throttling cap at roughly 30KB/s, so even if I were having two conversations or a conference call, it still might not bother to throttle me even if VoIP was targeted. You'd have to be having numerous conversations over a single DSL connection before you really knew.
Since Bell's shaping equipment seems to treat encrypted packets with suspicion (it then has to rely on analysis of traffic flows, ports, connection states, setup and teardown patterns, etc.), I thought it might try and shape encrypted sRTP and encrypted IAX2. But it doesn't. I watched this with a packet sniffer and while the voice payload is indeed encrypted, there is still enough information in each packet to tell what kind of packet it is. So the DPI used by Bell's shaping equipment should be able to tell what it is and leave it alone.
I think Bell would quickly find itself in serious trouble if it were ever found to be deliberately interfering with VoIP traffic, for any number of reasons. And especially if it were happening over the tarrifed, regulated, ADSL Gateway Access Service (which is where the shaping is currently taking place). Suppose someone makes a 911 call using VoIP that gets dropped, resulting in a serious injury or death. If it were later found this call was dropped or interfered with as a result of traffic-shaping, it would certainly raise some serious liability issues for Bell, as well as some intense scrutiny from the CRTC and the public. Look how long it took for the CRTC to react to a 911 VoIP mixup that tragically resulted in a baby's death earlier this week. It was immediate. There's no suggestion traffic-shaping of VoIP was a factor in that, but it gives one a sense of how urgently and seriously it would be taken should it become a factor in the future. |
|
dbenne00
join:2008-01-18
Whitby, ON
·Bell Sympatico
·Acanac Inc.
edit:
May 7th, @01:10PM
| reply to CanadianISP
If Bell is only throttling certain packets/whatever, then why is it that as soon as I make a VPN connection, or start a torrent (with very minimal uploading going on), I lose 80% of my upload speed (according to on-line speed tests)?
Weird.
Update: just to clarify my confusion(!)...
Even if throttling of P2P or other encrypted traffic is occuring, shouldn't things like HTTP and FTP uploads remain unhindered? |
|
some
@videotron.ca | VPN is affected. Some of the types has been worked out, others not.
In any account you should make the compaint to the CRTC that your VPN is affected. |
|
