said by LiamJunket :

The US has been tapping the phone systems since the 50's, including Clinton, Carter, Johnson, Kennedy and all the other liberal Dems. And this won't change if Obama or Hillary gets elected president.

said by wierdo :

The emancipation proclamation did not apply to US territory, it only applied to the states in rebellion. The commander in chief, especially back then when there were few laws to govern the use of that authority, could proclaim whatever he pleased to be the law of the land in foreign territory. At the time, the rebellious states were foreign territory.

said by amigo_boy :

For example, Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation was illegal according to the letter of the law. The 13th amendment made it legal. His action was still illegal by the letter of the law, but most people would say it was legal by the spirit of the law (the larger context of how it was made legal later).

said by S_engineer :

Funny how when you download music via bit torrent, it's seems to be ok. But when our gov't sifts through the network...it's facism. What a load of crap!
Any person thats ever downloaded a song illegally is just as guilty as the gov't for "obtaining binary" that they're not entitled to!

said by JakCrow :

Since the activities were illegal, a person has the duty to come forward, and there are provisions for such whistle blowers.

said by KrK :

No.... not really. Maybe once. These days, the Republican party merely gives lip service to this, while actually increasing Government size and expanding Government Scope and Power at previously unheard of speed... (Well, since WWII. anyway.)

Republicans these days all seem to be about "Keep your hands off our money" and "No business regulation for OUR businesses" but want strict control over everything else....

said by amigo_boy :

If activity adhered to the law it didn't go against everything this country stands for. The law did. And the law's allowing data gathering been on the books for a very long time. I.e., there's been adequate time to have it repealed. Choosing to violate the law just because it's easier is the same thing the Administration is accused of doing.

Mark

said by insomniac84 :

Republicans are for less government.

said by LiamJunket :

LOL. Sure they do. How naive of you.

said by ackman :

It is documented that Bush and fascist cronies started illegally wiretapping long before 9/11/01.

said by S_engineer :

Funny how when you download music via bit torrent, it's seems to be ok. But when our gov't sifts through the network...it's facism. What a load of crap!
Any person thats ever downloaded a song illegally is just as guilty as the gov't for "obtaining binary" that they're not entitled to!

Thank You Verizon...Thank You AT&T and all others that helped when we needed you.

And by the way...why the hell hasn't Mark Klien been indicted?

said by LiamJunket :

The companies followed requests of the government to defend the nation. No different than our soldiers in Iraq do in following the orders of the government, even though some(not me) consider our actions their criminal.

Should we jail all our returning soldiers for obeying the orders of the government that sent them there? Because you are saying that telecom employees should be penalized for following government requests for info.

said by KrK :

The People always win in the end

said by Telecom Pro :

And what evidence do you have to support this outrageous assertion?

said by INT0CABLE :

then weirdo its right this is not republican and i should have known better because ron paul doesnt approve of this blown in your face violation of civil liberties.

it's fascist (and corporatist) crap.

said by KrK :

The lawsuits should proceed. You may want us to throw all civil liberties under the wheels of the administration, but I don't.

said by amigo_boy :

Sorry. I didn't realize I changed the topic. You complained that it's impossible for criminal charges to be brought due to the current administration. I responded that you have political options such as 1) pressure Congress to hold hearings (and call for prosecutions depending on the results). And, 2) use the election process to replace those who you believe aren't pursuing justice.

said by amigo_boy :

I was just replying to the incessant statements that "a crime was committed" or "they broke the law." If those statements are true, the place to prove it is in a criminal court, not civil. Many proponents of these civil suits have openly stated that it's being done because it's easier than seeking criminal charges. (Which sounds a lot like what the corner-cutting which the Administration is accused of.).

said by amigo_boy :

I was just replying to the incessant statements that "a crime was committed" or "they broke the law." If those statements are true, the place to prove it is in a criminal court, not civil. Many proponents of these civil suits have openly stated that it's being done because it's easier than seeking criminal charges. (Which sounds a lot like what the corner-cutting which the Administration is accused of.).

said by wierdo :

What a nice tactic. Change the subject when you don't like someone's point. Today, and since 2004, it has not been possible to federally prosecute a crime that the political machine does not want to see prosecuted.

said by wierdo :

Besides, the ECPA and other wiretap laws specifically create a civil cause of action, so I don't know where you get off saying that these companies should only find themselves in criminal court.

said by amigo_boy :

You have congressional hearings available to you. And elections to replace those you believe are preventing justice. Just 8 months.

said by wierdo :

Or did you conveniently forget about that?

said by amigo_boy :

If they broke the law, charge them criminally.

said by JakCrow :

And the idea that a person should keep quiet when said surveillance is illegal goes against everything this country stands for.

said by amigo_boy :

Do you have a reference to where Klein testified to this? (BTW: I thought normal warrant requirements were necessary for a telco to release call records, from/to information?).

One thing that's interesting to me is that USC 2511(2)(a)(ii) makes it illegal for a telco employee to publicize the existence of wiretapping.

"No provider of wire or electronic communication service, officer, employee, or agent thereof, or landlord, custodian, or other specified person shall disclose the existence of any interception or surveillance or the device used to accomplish the interception or surveillance with respect to which the person has been furnished a court order or certification under this chapter .... Any such disclosure, shall render such person liable for the civil damages provided for in section 2520. "

Mark

said by woody7 :

They tapped calls emanating from this country without a warrant. This has never been about what you have stated, and that is illegal.What part of that don't you understand? They had a chance to go to fisa court even after, and they chose not too. I could, and most people would agree that what goes on outside this country is ok. The telcos are spinless and acquiesced, and that is their mistake. While they (both parties) are posturing, everything is going to hell in a hand basket.Gas,food, rice, etc.etc. I'm so afraid that without this immunity, that I am afraid to leave the house. Not.

said by LiamJunket :

And what did AT&T steal from you by tapping foreign phone calls traversing the US or where 1 end terminates in a foreign country?

said by Telecom Pro :

Klein testified that they fed CALL DATA to the government, not that they wiretapped anyone.

Call data (pin register) has never required a warrant.

said by rahvin112 :

They tapped ALL phone calls. Domestic and foreign.

said by rahvin112 :

Hopefully in 8 short months real criminal charges will be filed against everyone that was involved including those in the administration who were involved, hopefully right to the top of the current administration.

said by woody7 :

They tapped calls emanating from this country without a warrant. This has never been about what you have stated, and that is illegal.What part of that don't you understand? They had a chance to go to fisa court even after, and they chose not too. I could, and most people would agree that what goes on outside this country is ok. The telcos are spinless and acquiesced, and that is their mistake. While they (both parties) are posturing, everything is going to hell in a hand basket.Gas,food, rice, etc.etc. I'm so afraid that without this immunity, that I am afraid to leave the house. Not.

said by woody7 :

They tapped calls emanating from this country without a warrant. They had a chance to go to fisa court even after, ...

said by rit56 :

they broke the law and should be punished,

said by boognish :

If they didn't do anything wrong then they shouldn't have anything to worry about.

said by INT0CABLE :

get outta here with your republican crap. that bill should be buried

said by LiamJunket :

The companies followed requests of the government to defend the nation. No different than our soldiers in Iraq do in following the orders of the government, even though some(not me) consider our actions their criminal.

Should we jail all our returning soldiers for obeying the orders of the government that sent them there? Because you are saying that telecom employees should be penalized for following government requests for info.

said by LiamJunket :

I think you miss the point. I am on the side of those who rule - not on the side of the "great unwashed" masses.

said by wierdo :

[
It's not Republican crap, it's fascist (and corporatist) crap.

said by LiamJunket :

Should we jail all our returning soldiers for obeying the orders of the government that sent them there? Because you are saying that telecom employees should be penalized for following government requests for info.

said by LiamJunket :

And what did AT&T steal from you by tapping foreign phone calls traversing the US or where 1 end terminates in a foreign country?

said by LiamJunket :

The companies followed requests of the government to defend the nation. No different than our soldiers in Iraq do in following the orders of the government, even though some(not me) consider our actions their criminal.

Should we jail all our returning soldiers for obeying the orders of the government that sent them there? Because you are saying that telecom employees should be penalized for following government requests for info.

said by INT0CABLE :

get outta here with your republican crap. that bill should be buried

said by LiamJunket :

The companies followed requests of the government to defend the nation. No different than our soldiers in Iraq do in following the orders of the government, even though some(not me) consider our actions their criminal.

Should we jail all our returning soldiers for obeying the orders of the government that sent them there? Because you are saying that telecom employees should be penalized for following government requests for info.

said by LiamJunket :

Well, I live in the real world and not in the fantasy land you apparently think we should live in. You are ignoring the "Golden Rule" - those who have the gold rule. That rule has controlled the world for thousands of years and nothing I have ever seen in governance around the world is going to change it.

said by LiamJunket
And what did AT&T steal from you by tapping foreign phone calls traversing the US or where 1 end terminates in a foreign country?

said by Dan888 :

Do you feel it is unnecessary to determine if the companies violated the constitution? We do not even know what they need immunity for yet, if anything, as the cases are still ongoing and it is worth knowing what they did before we just give them immunity.

said by LiamJunket :

I think you need to read up on definitions of communist and capitalist.

said by rit56 :

and in your posts you sound like a communist.

said by boognish :

If history has shown anything in the real world those that have the gold have to watch how they rule or the peasants revolt at some point.

said by dsldude08 :

You are part of the cause of all of this if that is your attitude. The reason for that is because you sit back and let them get away with these things and refuse to try to change the ways when you actually have the power to do so.

said by boognish :

If they didn't do anything wrong then they shouldn't have anything to worry about. They should not be offered immunity and rewarded if what they did was wrong and they knew what they were doing was wrong. They have enough lawyers and are under enough regulations to know if what they did was kosher or not. It should not be about what party you are in or how you feel about spying and the war. We are a country governed by laws. There should not be a set of laws for one class or for one type of organization. It should be an even playing field and the same rules should be applied to everyone regardless of class, size, political leaning, or anything else. If they chose to ignore or bend the rules for someone then screw them now they can suffer the consonances.

"More than 66 days have passed since House Democrats allowed a key piece of terrorist surveillance legislation to expire--not because they had concerns with the bill, but because they were seemingly more concerned that not enough trial lawyers would be able to file enough expensive and frivolous lawsuits against U.S. telecom firms,"