kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?
join:2006-12-12
Arnold, MD
| reply to GeekNJ
Re: How many cancel an dgo back to Dish or Comcast ?
I agree with everything you say. But you ignored the point I already made. Every subscriber on a cable node is an equal whereas DSL subscribers fall into declining maximum achievable bandwidth groups based on distance. As far as I can tell, this makes the peak DSL load on a CO self-limiting because the furthest DSL customer can only pull down a couple hundred kbps based on the technology whereas the furthest cable user can pull the same 6Mbps as the closest. That tells me that peak demand on a cable node hits much higher than DSL on a CO. Now, I have to imagine the shared coax network also chokes down the pipe to the node. Otherwise, why would running fiber the last mile help cable? |
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GeekNJ
Premium
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ
| reply to kyler13
Distance has nothing to do with an peak time slowdown. I'm not sure why it's part of the equation. All the slowdown is based on aggregated bandwidth. At each point when multiple users/connections come together, if the bandwidth at that point can't sustain the load of all the branches coming in, there's a capacity issue.
So if you still wanted to say you have a "dedicated" connection with DSL, you can say that. It's dedicated between you and the CO, RT, etc. Once there it's aggregated with everyone else coming in. Same as cable but replace the CO with the CMTS/Node. No real difference. if the bandwidth at the CMTS can't handle the peak traffic for all the users connecting to it, there's a capacity issue.
No consumer broadband provider allocates capacity to cover all passed users or even all subscribers and maxing out their connection simultaneously. It just wouldn't be profitable.
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kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?
join:2006-12-12
Arnold, MD
| reply to GeekNJ
It's not both sides of the fence, it's two different fences. In the case of cable, there's no distance limitation so oversubscribing a node is marketing limited for all locations. Every cable user has the opportunity to utilize the maximum bandwidth allowed by the company for the subscribed tier. That is how it's designed. In the case of DSL, it's distance limited and nothing will change that. Unless you cram a very large number of people on top of the CO (like the NY area) it'll be difficult to oversubscribe since achievable bandwidth scales inversely with distance from the CO. There are always going to be exceptions, but you can't approach it like it's 50/50 just because both cases exist. You have to weigh all the factors. |
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GeekNJ
Premium
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ
| reply to kyler13
said by kyler13  :said by GeekNJ :That's your experience which I'm sure is perfectly accurate, but the experience you'll see from others is that DSL suffers the same as any other service in certain areas. DSL users have the same "dedicated" (if you want to believe that) connection yet are impacted by peak time hours. Just go over and look in the Verizon DSL forum on the site. It's a huge problem for months (maybe well over a year now) in the NY area. That's an unfair example, and probably limited to the NY area. Many CO's in this country extend phone service to users outside of a DSL serviceable distance making the subscription rate low per CO. The NY area is pretty dense with alot of MDUs. I have to imagine there's a high percentage of lines where DSL is feasible so the COs end up being oversubscribed in a sense. In suburban or rural areas, DSL is as lightning fast as the max capable speed. Your last 2 posts are playing both sides of the fence. DSL is an exception where it is oversold and cable is an exception where it isn't oversold. Maybe that's great except for all the people that live in the areas I mentioned that have the exact opposite real life experience and would dispute the generalization. Real life experience trumps generalization. I have Verizon FIOS and haven't had any issues worth speaking of. I have Cablevision Optimum Online for years before switching to FIOS and didn't have peak hour slow downs.
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kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?
join:2006-12-12
Arnold, MD
| reply to GeekNJ
said by GeekNJ :That's your experience which I'm sure is perfectly accurate, but the experience you'll see from others is that DSL suffers the same as any other service in certain areas. DSL users have the same "dedicated" (if you want to believe that) connection yet are impacted by peak time hours. Just go over and look in the Verizon DSL forum on the site. It's a huge problem for months (maybe well over a year now) in the NY area. That's an unfair example, and probably limited to the NY area. Many CO's in this country extend phone service to users outside of a DSL serviceable distance making the subscription rate low per CO. The NY area is pretty dense with alot of MDUs. I have to imagine there's a high percentage of lines where DSL is feasible so the COs end up being oversubscribed in a sense. In suburban or rural areas, DSL is as lightning fast as the max capable speed. |
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kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?
join:2006-12-12
Arnold, MD
| reply to GeekNJ
said by GeekNJ :said by kyler13 :Comcast has great internet, provided your online at noon on a Tuesday when the neighborhood kids are in school. Wait, you work for a living? In that case, get DSL if you don't want FIOS. It'll be faster than peak usage bandwidth on Comcast's overcrowded network. I don't think that generalization can be made. I just came back from spending a week at my parents house in the southern half of FL where I was seeing outstanding speeds at any time of the day. For giggles I ran some Speakeasy speed tests a bunch of times and performance was always above 15mb down and often 20mb. I also did testing of DNS and the 2 times I tested, local Comcast DNS was always faster then OpenDNS or I would have switched them. Granted, if you're fortunate to be on an undersubscribed cable node, lucky you. But as far as I can tell, when I switched a year and a half ago, Comcast was having terrible issues with only 6Mbps available to subscribers. We all know that FIOS can be oversubscribed as well, but you'd need many 50Mbps users on a shared-fiber to impact others. With just BPON, theoretically, everyone at 15/2 would not impact each other (not taking VOD usage into account). When I moved in here 5 years ago, cable was fast all the time. But heavy marketing of triple play killed the node I'm on, and I saw sub-1Mbps speeds at peak times. On a side note, they tried to offer me a free upgrade to 16/2 when I called to cancel cable internet. Funny. Imagine if the state government here doubled the speed limit to improve traffic gridlock. How effective would that be? |
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tmpchaos
Requiescat in pace
Premium,Mod
join:2000-04-28
Hoboken, NJ
clubs:    |  reply to VirtualSlew
(topic move) VPN issues
Moderator Action
The post that was here (and all 1 followups to it), has been moved to a new topic .. »VPN issues |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to rondon
Re: How many cancel an dgo back to Dish or Comcast ?
said by rondon :
This is a tough one cause our choices are so limited. FiOS interntet I keep stand alone for sure. Telephone, gone I only have a cell phone, TV is a toss up.
Comcast never overbilled me or let a billing error run out for over 3mos to correct it. Yet they offered less HD than FiOS at time of sign up. I switched and knowing now what a mess Verizons Cust Service is regardless of the fact that they can deliver the best HD picture I wish I went with DirecTV.
Today the Basic HD package from Comcast gives me 6 more than FiOS and DirecTV 17 more. 17!!!
If DirecTV would recognize the Balt/Wash area as 1 market area so I can get both locals (just like FiOS and Comcrap already give me) I would switch in a heartbeat.
Do you hear that DTV? Balt/Wash is one freaking market area. Give me both local channels and I will switch and you bet I will push my friends and family to do the same. I convinced at least a dozen friend and family locally to go FiOS at launch in AA County.
DirecTV's customer service is something they shouldn't be proud of, that's for sure. Several there (not just one) gave me bad info when it came to NBA LP, by telling me I'd be able to see all Sixers games on it, as it showed up as available for me. So I bought it. Turns out, you can't see ANY Sixers games on NBA LP. And they have a policy where they don't offer refunds, no exceptions. Even if due to their own error. Also, I opened a ticket on 2/1/08, and was told it would be resolved with a phone call to me within 10 business days. I am sure that phone call will be coming any day now...........(Last check, a few weeks ago, ticket still open, when I called for something else). |
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rondon
@verizon.net
| reply to Switchedforme
This is a tough one cause our choices are so limited. FiOS interntet I keep stand alone for sure. Telephone, gone I only have a cell phone, TV is a toss up.
Comcast never overbilled me or let a billing error run out for over 3mos to correct it. Yet they offered less HD than FiOS at time of sign up. I switched and knowing now what a mess Verizons Cust Service is regardless of the fact that they can deliver the best HD picture I wish I went with DirecTV.
Today the Basic HD package from Comcast gives me 6 more than FiOS and DirecTV 17 more. 17!!!
If DirecTV would recognize the Balt/Wash area as 1 market area so I can get both locals (just like FiOS and Comcrap already give me) I would switch in a heartbeat.
Do you hear that DTV? Balt/Wash is one freaking market area. Give me both local channels and I will switch and you bet I will push my friends and family to do the same. I convinced at least a dozen friend and family locally to go FiOS at launch in AA County. |
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GeekNJ
Premium
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ
| reply to VirtualSlew
said by VirtualSlew :I'm not speaking of users online with my personal FiOS connection, I'm speaking of other FiOS customers being online. With Comcrap, the amount of usage on the Comcrap network impacts everyone's experience. When more people are online during evening hours, their speed and reliability suffer. FiOS users don't have these issues. When kids are home from school on holidays, my Comcrap VPN users have all kinds of problems. My FiOS and DSL users don't have these issues. That's your experience which I'm sure is perfectly accurate, but the experience you'll see from others is that DSL suffers the same as any other service in certain areas. DSL users have the same "dedicated" (if you want to believe that) connection yet are impacted by peak time hours. Just go over and look in the Verizon DSL forum on the site. It's a huge problem for months (maybe well over a year now) in the NY area.
The issue with peak time performance is at aggregation points where your connection merges in with the traffic of other users. With DSL, that's essentially the CO (Central Office). Same for FIOS. For cable, it's the CMTS which is like the CO, but in your neighborhood. If any of those don't have enough aggregated bandwidth for all the simultaneous users, you see peak time performance issues. It has nothing to do with the type of service at all, though I guess the telco's wanted you to believe it would never happen to them.
In addition, with FIOS, we've seen routing issues in Verizon's network or direct peers Verizon uses that cause routing problems that act the same as increased latency without a routing issue.
I'm amazed when any of this stuff works, not when it doesn't. But be realistic that any provider can (and does) have performance issues. How willing they are to address it determines a customers satisfaction.
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VirtualSlew
join:2008-01-18
Ambler, PA
 ·ooma
 ·Verizon FIOS
1 edit | reply to JeepMatt
said by JeepMatt :said by VirtualSlew :My FiOS connection is rock solid, and no fluctuations in up/down speed due to others being online. What are the "others" doing? Staring at their screens? Or downloading torrents, uploading files, or what? I could have 15 computers "using" any connection and if they're not doing anything, there won't be a speed decrease. I love FIOS internet - but I think your statement's juuuuuuuuuust a bit off.  I'm not speaking of users online with my personal FiOS connection, I'm speaking of other FiOS customers being online. With Comcrap, the amount of usage on the Comcrap network impacts everyone's experience. When more people are online during evening hours, their speed and reliability suffer. FiOS users don't have these issues. When kids are home from school on holidays, my Comcrap VPN users have all kinds of problems. My FiOS and DSL users don't have these issues. |
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MrSpock29
join:2008-02-09
Hammonton, NJ
| reply to danclan
said by danclan :my guess is the churn rate for verizon's services is low given the numbers of new users signing up but there is no real way to know and really wont be until they have greater market penetration or some clever marketing team polls users. I think churn rate is pretty straight-forward for them to know. They should know who has left just as well as who has come. Having said that, churn rate will need time to be defined in a sense, as most people sign up for 1 or 2 year contracts, and are less likely to leave during that time. The real number to follow, and I don't know that it would be reported this way, is the churn rate of subscribers coming off of contracts.
Having said that, my expectations would be for their churn rate to be lower than cable. |
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danclan
join:2005-11-01
Midlothian, VA | reply to Claude M
my guess is the churn rate for verizon's services is low given the numbers of new users signing up but there is no real way to know and really wont be until they have greater market penetration or some clever marketing team polls users. |
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Claude M
join:2008-01-22
Oradell, NJ
1 edit | reply to JTBurn
exactly, what Spock said, drilling a hole in my own head. |
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robjlevin
join:2002-10-30
Millington, NJ
| reply to harley3k
said by harley3k :Why wouldn't people just keep Verizon Internet and get their TV from whoever they want? It's not like the double-play package deals save you that much money anyway. Exactly what I did. Canceled the TV and when to DirecTV but kept the internet and phone. |
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JeepMatt
Delaware Fios
Premium
join:2001-12-28
Wilmington, DE
·Verizon FIOS
| reply to VirtualSlew
said by VirtualSlew :My FiOS connection is rock solid, and no fluctuations in up/down speed due to others being online. What are the "others" doing? Staring at their screens? Or downloading torrents, uploading files, or what?
I could have 15 computers "using" any connection and if they're not doing anything, there won't be a speed decrease. I love FIOS internet - but I think your statement's juuuuuuuuuust a bit off.
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"ONE team - ONE city - ONE dream!!" |
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VirtualSlew
join:2008-01-18
Ambler, PA
·ooma
·Verizon FIOS
2 edits | reply to Switchedforme
Comcast internet has all kinds of overhead in their network. I'm a network admin, and I know when a Comprap customer is using the VPN because I see gobbs of "out of order packet arrived" messages in the log. I don't see any of these kinds of messages from FiOS or DSL customers. The only people that have problems using the VPN are Comcrap customers. The connection drops and becomes unreliable. VoIP calls through the VPN have echos and delays through the Compcrap network.
My FiOS connection is rock solid, and no fluctuations in up/down speed due to others being online. I've never been a Comcrap customer and never will be. That company is unethical, and evil in my opinion. Given a choice, I don't understand why anyone would choose to be one of their customers. |
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JTBurn
join:2003-11-08
Ellicott City, MD
| reply to MrSpock29
said by MrSpock29 :Plus, dealing with them was like drilling a hole in my own head. So other than that, I really liked it. That's been my experience with both Verizon and Comcast. I've got a bad headache. |
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GeekNJ
Premium
join:2000-09-23
Waldwick, NJ
| reply to kyler13
said by kyler13 :Comcast has great internet, provided your online at noon on a Tuesday when the neighborhood kids are in school. Wait, you work for a living? In that case, get DSL if you don't want FIOS. It'll be faster than peak usage bandwidth on Comcast's overcrowded network. I don't think that generalization can be made. I just came back from spending a week at my parents house in the southern half of FL where I was seeing outstanding speeds at any time of the day. For giggles I ran some Speakeasy speed tests a bunch of times and performance was always above 15mb down and often 20mb. I also did testing of DNS and the 2 times I tested, local Comcast DNS was always faster then OpenDNS or I would have switched them.
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kyler13
Is your fiber grounded?
join:2006-12-12
Arnold, MD
| reply to Switchedforme
Comcast has great internet, provided your online at noon on a Tuesday when the neighborhood kids are in school. Wait, you work for a living? In that case, get DSL if you don't want FIOS. It'll be faster than peak usage bandwidth on Comcast's overcrowded network. |
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