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wkendhippie
Is it Friday yet ?
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Clarksdale
reply to vue666
Re: Chernobyl

check this out:
»www.kiddofspeed.com/


Devanchya
Smile
Premium
join:2003-12-09
Pickering, ON
nice site.

God our planet is, small.


Wolfie00
Premium
join:2005-03-12

reply to wkendhippie
That's an amazing website. Some of Elena's comments on the photographs help underscore the magnitude of the disaster:
... Radiation will stay in the Chernobyl area for the next 48,000 years, but humans may begin repopulating the area in about 600 years - give or take three centuries. [Moving in the other direction of time, 600 years ago Christopher Columbus had not yet been born, and the New World was almost a century away from being discovered.]

... Usually, on this leg of the journey, a beeping geiger counter inspires to shift into high gear and streak through the area with great haste. The patch of trees in front of me is called red - or 'magic" wood. In 1986, this wood glowed red with radiation. They cut them down and buried them under 1 meter of earth. The readings on the asphalt paving is 500 -3000 microroentgens, depending upon where you stand. That is 50 to 300 times the radiation of a normal environment. If I step 10 meters forward, geiger counter will run off the scale. If I walk a few hundred meters towards the reactor, the radiation is 3 roentgens per hour - which is 300,000 times normal. If I was to keep walking all the way to the reactor, I would glow in the dark tonight.

... At first glance, Ghost Town seems like a normal town. There is a taxi stop, a grocery store, someone's wash hangs from the balcony and the windows are open. But then I see a slogan on a building that says - "The Party of Lenin Will Lead Us To The Triumph Of Communism" and I realize that those windows were opened to the spring air of April of 1986 ... Perhaps future archeologists will compare this town to Pompeii. The Soviet era is forever preserved here -- in the radiation that will last for many centuries.

... This old man lives in the Chernobyl area. He is one of 3,500 people that either refused to leave or returned to their villages after the meltdown in 1986. I admire those people, because each of them is a philosopher in their own way. When you ask if they are afraid, they say that they would rather die at home from radiation, than die in an unfamiliar place of home-sickness. They eat food from their own gardens, drink the milk of their cows and claim that they are healthy.....but the old man is one of only 400 that have survived this long. He may soon join his 3,100 neighbors that rest eternally in the earth of their beloved homes. It appears that the people with the most courage were the first to die here. Maybe that is true everywhere.
--
"Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher


vue666

join:2007-12-07

Another article about Chernobyl...

»www.cbc.ca/cp/world/080427/w042774A.html

I wonder if something like this could happen again? Have we learned anything from Chernobyl?

Warez_Zealot
Mr. Misanthrope

join:2006-04-19
St Catharines, ON

said by vue666 See Profile :

Another article about Chernobyl...

»www.cbc.ca/cp/world/080427/w042774A.html

I wonder if something like this could happen again? Have we learned anything from Chernobyl?
Ummmm.... Long island.. Maybe even Chalk River thanks to our intelligent government. I'm sure the list could go on and on for other countries too.


vue666

join:2007-12-07
Perhaps coal isn't a bad solution when you consider the risk of nuclear?

Warez_Zealot
Mr. Misanthrope

join:2006-04-19
St Catharines, ON


edit:
April 28th, @09:05AM

said by vue666 See Profile :

Perhaps coal isn't a bad solution when you consider the risk of nuclear?
Well nuclear is soon to be a thing of the past regardless. Last I read, there is only about 20 years of easily accessible Uranium (mining wise).

I personally think coal is something only developing countries should use. What will probably take over is methane gas (Gas hydrates). Apparently we are slowly figuring out how to extract it from the permafrost in steady streams.

»nnsl.com/northern-news-services/···8ma.html

I seriously think this will be the new power source unless Fusion power via deuterium becomes viable (near term I highly, highly doubt).

»news.google.com.au/news?hl=en&cl···N&tab=wn


EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Montreal, QC
clubs:
·ELECTRONICBOX

said by Warez_Zealot See ProfileWell nuclear is soon to be a thing of the past regardless. Last I read, there is only about 20 years of easily accessible Uranium (mining wise).
[/BQUOTE :


They have next-gen nuclear plants ready to be built that:
1) Use half the fuel that is currently needed for the same output
2) Use the existing "spent" rods the current plants cannot use anymore
The are presently designing the plants that will replace the next-gen plants not yet built. Same scenerio; use the "spent" rods from next-gen plants.


wkendhippie
Is it Friday yet ?
Premium
join:2004-02-16
Clarksdale

reply to Wolfie00
Click for full size
It's an incredible site that Elena put together. I need to write her one of these days.
The pictures and story I see there is so horrific, beyond what I could ever imagine. What all those people must have suffered though my God.

This one photo seems to show the glow emanating from the reactor, I wonder if thats some radiation effect to the film / CCD of the camera

Warez_Zealot
Mr. Misanthrope

join:2006-04-19
St Catharines, ON


edit:
April 28th, @12:49PM

reply to EUS
said by EUS See Profile :

said by Warez_Zealot See ProfileWell nuclear is soon to be a thing of the past regardless. Last I read, there is only about 20 years of easily accessible Uranium (mining wise).
:

They have next-gen nuclear plants ready to be built that:
1) Use half the fuel that is currently needed for the same output
2) Use the existing "spent" rods the current plants cannot use anymore
The are presently designing the plants that will replace the next-gen plants not yet built. Same scenerio; use the "spent" rods from next-gen plants.
Well that doesn't help the old reactors. Once a steady supply of Uranium is gone, then the old reactors need to go offline.

Building newer ones to re-use the rods will be a costly investment for countries like the US, Canada, Russia etc when they have to build new reactors to replace perfectly operational reactors that can't get a reliable source of fuel.

What I heard is that India is going to be building those new breeder reactors. But to be honest, I think the more reactors built, the faster the recycled rods will be completely used up.. I read an article that it could go from 72 power generating years of avail Uranium down to 12yrs if more countries start building reactors.. Even if you factor in the recycling of used rods, it can't add that much life to fission reactors as a long term power source..

I wish your reasoning would make it that simple though..


EUS
Kill cancer
Premium
join:2002-09-10
Montreal, QC
clubs:

edit:
April 28th, @01:02PM

I never said I had any answers, and I'm not a fan of any current technology we use for energy purposes, but I'm just happy they can start reusing the to date garbage.


Snickerdo
Premium
join:2001-02-28
St Catharines, ON
·Cogeco Cable

reply to Warez_Zealot
said by Warez_Zealot See Profile :

Building newer ones to re-use the rods will be a costly investment for countries like the US, Canada, Russia etc when they have to build new reactors to replace perfectly operational reactors that can't get a reliable source of fuel.
Costly investment? Every single reactor currently in use in Canada is capable of burning "spent" fuel rods in their existing configuration. In fact, we've been reprocessing spent American fuel for decades. Hell, Canadian reactors have the ability to burn plain ol' out-of-the-ground uranium, burning spent fuel-grade Uranium is a bonus compared to natural Uranium. Breeder reactors aren't new. The "new" reactors have different cooling and delivery methods, but the concept is the same.
--
I swear that I will faithfully and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.


P Ness
You'Ve Forgotten 9-11 Already
Premium
join:2001-08-29
Cromwell, CT
clubs:

reply to vue666
said by vue666 See Profile :

Perhaps coal isn't a bad solution when you consider the risk of nuclear?
one accident causing death in what 60 years and you call that a serious risk?

do you know how many people die in refinery deaths?
do you know how many miners die in coal mines?
do you know how many people die on oil rigs?
do you know how many people die from polution caused by oil and oil products.

i would bet more then 10x this accident.
--
www.stopfcc.comI do not think the government needs to restrict free speech especially on a device that has an off knob.


Wolfie00
Premium
join:2005-03-12

said by P Ness See Profile :

said by vue666 See Profile :

Perhaps coal isn't a bad solution when you consider the risk of nuclear?
one accident causing death in what 60 years and you call that a serious risk?

do you know how many people die in refinery deaths?
do you know how many miners die in coal mines?
do you know how many people die on oil rigs?
do you know how many people die from polution caused by oil and oil products.

i would bet more then 10x this accident.
I had missed that little bit of wisdom about coal being such a great solution compared to the "risk" of nuclear!

Here's some numerical data related to air pollution alone. That doesn't even touch on the death and destruction caused by an increasingly volatile climate; for example, while individual events like Katrina can never be positively linked to global warming, there is growing and increasingly strong evidence that warmer air and ocean temperatures are contributing to hurricanes that are more intense and longer-lived. Add in the factors of abrupt climate changes like drought, flooding, or unusual heat or cold, and consequent widespread crop failures, and a disaster like Chernobyl begins to look like a picnic in the park compared to the catastrophes that can be wrought by pollution and climate change.

Power plants are a major source of air pollution, with coal-fired power plants spewing 59% of total U.S. sulfur dioxide pollution and 18% of total nitrogen oxides every year. Coal-fired power plants are also the largest polluter of toxic mercury pollution5, largest contributor of hazardous air toxics6, and release about 50% of particle pollution. Additionally, power plants release over 40% of total U.S. carbon dioxide emissions, a prime contributor to global warming.
»www.sierraclub.org/cleanair/fact···ower.asp

About 40 percent of deaths worldwide are caused by water, air and soil pollution, concludes a Cornell researcher. Such environmental degradation, coupled with the growth in world population, are major causes behind the rapid increase in human diseases, which the World Health Organization has recently reported. Both factors contribute to the malnourishment and disease susceptibility of 3.7 billion people, he says.
»www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20···2438.htm

Air pollution is responsible for 310,000 premature deaths in Europe each year, research suggests.
»news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4283295.stm

Air pollution is a much bigger factor in death from heart disease or stroke than has previously been recognized, according to findings from one of the largest studies ever to examine the issue ... After adjusting for other risk factors for heart disease and stroke, they found that air quality was a strong predictor of heart disease and stroke risks -- and an even stronger predictor of death from heart disease or stroke.

Fine particulate air pollution -- caused primarily by vehicle exhausts, coal-fired power plants, and other industrial sources -- was the sole type of air pollution associated with increased risk.
»www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news···t-deaths

Air pollution – mainly from vehicles, industry, and power plants – raises the chances of lung cancer and heart disease in people exposed to it long term, according to a report in the March 6 Journal of the American Medical Association.
»www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/conte···ncer.asp
--
"Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher


vue666

join:2007-12-07

Sorry... I said North American coal as a viable alternative to Middle Eastern or South American oil, using the revenues from coal to invest into alternative energy research.

Living in Halifax, the bulk of our power generating is fueled by oil from Venezuela. Why not purchase the coal instead from Nova Scotia?


Wolfie00
Premium
join:2005-03-12

Seems more than a little short-sighted (i.e.-"stupid") to invest in transforming oil-fired plants into something worse! NS did it once and look where it got them. First of all it no longer achieves "energy independence" since NS Power doesn't use local coal any more -- ironically, most of it is bought on the international market just like oil. And their pollution track record is horrific! The Lingan plant is the second-worst sulphur dioxide polluter in all of Canada, and unless they have the bulk of their planned new pollution control equipment in place, this one plant alone is responsible for nearly half of the province's total air pollution! And you want more of this?

You can look to Ontario, which is working to phase out coal-fired plants entirely, to see the trend today. Even though much of the latest phase-out plan was delayed by politics, the Lakeview power station -- at one time the largest coal-fired power plant in the world I believe -- was shut down in 2005, the gigantic smokestacks were demolished the next year, and the rest of it torn down the year after. The others will be shut down in due course. This is what we should be doing to coal-fired power plants, not building new ones!

A study in 2000 by the Clean Air Task Force in Boston showed that particulate emissions from coal-fired plants killed more Americans every year than murderers or drunk drivers. The study says that the highest per capita death impacts are in "coal country" -- states like Kentucky, West Virginia and Alabama, where dirty sulphur-rich coal is burned in power plants.

I'll take clean efficient nuclear power any day!
--
"Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher


vue666

join:2007-12-07

Sorry Wolfie00. I respect your opinion. I really do. I did not start this debate to discuss climate change, but there does seem to be growing skepticism on global warming evidenced by this thread here at DSLReports....

»Don't feel guilty about driving that SUV anymore!

It appears that many in my generation will equate nuclear power with events like Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. Whether or not the concern is warranted I'll leave that to people who know nuclear energy better then I.


Wolfie00
Premium
join:2005-03-12

For the record, the article in Nature being discussed in that thread doesn't say what you think it does and it is certainly not an expression of "skepticism about global warming".

The research suggests the possibility that decadal oscillations caused by ocean current cycles may temporarily slow the rate of temperature increase in the next ten years. Which simply means that the suppressed temperature increases will bounce back more strongly in the decade after, when those same factors become additive instead of subtractive.

One of the report's co-authors was quoted as saying "We thought a lot about the way to present this because we don't want it to be turned around in the wrong way --I hope it doesn't become a message of Exxon Mobil and other skeptics."

More from the original authors:
"Just to make things clear: we are not stating that anthropogenic climate change won't be as bad as previously thought", explains Prof. Mojib Latif from IFM-GEOMAR. "What we are saying is that on top of the warming trend there is a long-periodic oscillation that will probably lead to a to a lower temperature increase than we would expect from the current trend during the next years", adds Latif. "That is like driving from the coast to a mountainous area and crossing some hills and valleys before you reach the top", explains Dr. Johann Jungclaus from the MPI for Meteorology.
»www.ifm-geomar.de/index.php?id=4192&L=1
--
"Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher


MacGyver
In Flanders Fields
Premium,ExMod 2003-05
join:2001-10-14
Orleans, ON
reply to Wolfie00
Here's a Toronto Star story on the Nanticoke Coal-Fired Power »www.thestar.com/SpecialSections/···e/299725


Wolfie00
Premium
join:2005-03-12

Thanks for the link. That's a great article.

This quote that caught my attention:

"Nanticoke is the province's largest single emitter of nitrogen oxide and has the second highest emissions of sulphur dioxide - the grim twins of acid rain and smog. Every year, it also pumps out 17.6 million tonnes of greenhouse gases, known to cause global warming."

Here's an interesting thought exercise -- (if I did my arithmetic right!) -- and assumes a sea-level mass for GHG's the same as air. Imagine a stretch of road 2,450 metres long -- almost two and a half kilometres.

Now try to imagine a huge rectangular tower that is that long on each side -- two and a half kilometres -- this is like no building on earth -- it covers almost six and a quarter square kilometres of land area -- the size of a modest city's entire downtown core. Now imagine this thing is 582 stories tall, rising two and a half kilometres straight up into the clouds. Now imagine this entire gargantuan structure filled up completely with CO2, methane, nitrous oxide, and assorted other GHG's, many of them toxic, at normal sea-level pressure. Now imagine that every year, this box is opened and all the crap spews out into our air.

That's Nanticoke.

As the Apollo astronauts so vividly realized, our planet is not really all that big.



--
"Until he extends his circle of compassion to include all living things, man will not himself find peace" -- Dr. Albert Schweitzer
"A dog is like a child who never grows old ... always there to love and be loved" -- Aaron Katcher
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