wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
 ·AT&T Midwest
| Upgrading to Elite from Pro and Distances...
Need a bit of advice.
I'd like to upgrade from Pro to Elite but it looks like my pairs won't quite support Elite speeds. I checked the the guys over at the Direct forum. They show my max speeds around 5800 and 985.
Normally I'd just live with it but what has me wondering is my neighbor three houses down had a very similar issue. He went ahead and ordered Elite anyway and when it didn't work, AT&T came out and ran new copper from his house. After that he was golden.
I've run new inside wiring and also ran a new CAT-5 run from the modem direct to the NID so inside is clean.
Does anyone think it's worth trying? What say you all? |
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justbits
More fiber than ATT can handle
Premium
join:2003-01-08
Chicago, IL | The squeaky wheel usually gets grease.
Did you do a test at the NID? Were the max speed, SNR or ATN any better/worse at the NID versus your home-run line?
Can you get your neighbor's line stats for comparison? Have them post in AT+T Direct? |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| reply to wavguy2003
Also what modem model was hooked to the line when the Direct techs measured your max speeds? Their download side measurements only reflect what your modem is reporting about your line so if you have an ancient model modem on the line, the reported stats will not be as good as from a 5100b, 4100, or 4100b, which would have the best possible stats. I can't say how a 2Wire would perform in their readings relative to those Speedstreams.
Also when you are gathering the stats that justbits  suggested, you should note which modem model is used there. |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to justbits
Modem stats for SNR and ATN were basically the same direct to the NID vs the house pairs. There's only three phone jacks being used for actual phones. My before and after home run install showed maybe half a dB improvement. I also ran a new pair from the NID to my inside demarc which is only 8 feet from the NID. So things are as clean as they can be for the inside piece.
I'll see if I can get him to pull stats off his modem. He's not signed up with DSLReports though. In fact he'd never heard of the site until I mentioned it to him about a month or so ago.
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
edit:
May 1st, @12:40PM
| reply to d_l
Modem is a SpeedStream 5100b. I know it doesn't report MAX speeds locally but Direct can tell from their end. They sent me a copy of the test and it showed a calculated MAX of 5898 and 985:
# SPEED PROFILE 3008/512
#
# ATU-R PWR-> ON
# DSL STATE-> SYNC
# STATUS-> IS
# PSTAT-> IS-NR
# DOWNSTREAM UPSTREAM
# CAPACITY CAP 51.0 52.0
# NOISE MARGIN NOI 17.0 19.5
# TRANSMISSION PWR PWR 9.0 8.5
# SIGNAL ATTENUATION ATT 34.0 16.0
# RATE SPD 3008F 512F
# MAX RATE (CALCULATED) MAX 5898F 985F
# CELL COUNT 183 108 |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
edit:
May 1st, @07:49PM
| reply to wavguy2003
You can do your own estimates of the the max sync rate with the DMT tool found here: »SBC DSL FAQ »How can I check for the maximum attainable sync speeds with a 5100b/4100 modem? ; however, in your case, your modem isn't syncing at full power so the maxrate estimates will be lower than what is really possible. The DMT tool simply assumes the modem is syncing at full output power levels. Had the Speedstream models reported power levels, we would have incorporated that info into the calculations.
I'm surprised that your loop can't easily exceed 6016 with an attenuation of only 34.0 dB! Maybe there might be some problem such as an interferer or bridged tap that is holding your max sync down below what would normally be obtainable for 34.0 dB. The DMT tone chart can reveal the presence of interferers and the hybrid your modem is using (reported in your modem log) can reveal the possibility of a bridge tap: »SBC DSL FAQ »What do the hybrid numbers mean and what do they tell you about your line? . |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
edit:
May 1st, @01:50PM
| Thanks, This is good info.
I'll check this all out this evening when I get home.
Could the modem be starting to fail? My original modem was a 4100 and it lasted about 2 years before it started to get weak. This one (5100b) is about 3 years old. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV | reply to wavguy2003
We haven't seen signs that they degrade with age. When they fail, it is more a properly working and then nothing situation. Sometimes they will flicker back and forth between the two states for a while before complete failure. |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL | Understood.
I'll run the stats this evening and report back.
Thanks again for the assist. |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| reply to d_l
Ok,
Modem Log says I'm Hybrid 1:
2008/04/26 20:46:59 GMT E |DSL |Link Down
2008/04/26 20:46:59 GMT E |DSL |State: WAITING
2008/04/26 20:47:11 GMT E |DSL |State: INITIALIZING
2008/04/26 20:47:18 GMT E |DSL |HYBRID 1
2008/04/26 20:47:19 GMT E |DSL |Link up 2 US 512 DS 3008 (FAST:G.dmt)
2008/04/26 23:07:33 GMT E |System |=============== SYSTEM UP ===============
2008/04/26 23:07:33 GMT E |System |Current Mode: PPP on the modem (Public IP for LAN device)
2008/04/26 23:07:33 GMT E |DSL |DataPump Version - 01.01.00.00
2008/04/26 23:07:33 GMT E |DSL |State: WAITING
2008/04/26 23:07:35 GMT E |Ethernet |Link 1 Up - 100Base-TX Full Duplex
2008/04/26 23:07:37 GMT E |DSL |State: INITIALIZING
2008/04/26 23:07:45 GMT E |DSL |HYBRID 1
2008/04/26 23:07:45 GMT E |DSL |Link up 1 US 512 DS 3008 (FAST:G.dmt)
The output from your nifty Tool definitely shows something wrong. My modem firmware is 1.00.53 which is the latest. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV | reply to wavguy2003
I think that is problem with the way the html file was saved before you fed it to the parser. Which browser did you use to save the techreadout html file? |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
edit:
May 1st, @07:51PM
| I used Firefox. I redid using IE7 and a big difference. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
edit:
May 1st, @08:04PM
| reply to wavguy2003
I don't know why Firefox burped the output. Normally IE is the problem browser.
Anyhow your line looks pretty clean. No major interferers are showing up eating a big notch out of your tone bins and you have hybrid 1 so the modem isn't seeing any bridged taps out beyond your NID (usually it only sees the ones within the inside wiring anyhow).
There might be a faster that normal trail off of the tone bin bit levels above bin 160, but I don't know how to explain that.
So there is nothing here that obviously explains why with a 34.0 dB that your max rate that the tech measured can't exceed 6016. Are you on a CO connection? I'm on an RT, have a 31.5 dB attenuation with a 4100 modem, and could theoretically hit the mid 7 mbps sync range.
Edit: Do you have a friend with a 4100b modem that you can borrow for a repeat of the the DMT test and another measurement from the techs in Direct? I think you might get an additional 400-500 kbps (or more) max rate with a 4100b on the line. |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
edit:
May 1st, @08:08PM
| I'm on an RT. Only thing I can think of is a weak modem. I did have a 4100 do that about 3 years ago. At least that's what the direct guys said when I started having speed issues. They saw low output from the modem. When I bought the 5100b everything went back to normal. Back then I didn't think to save the stats so all I have is my aging memory 
Like I mentioned before my buddy three houses down had similar issues. He upgraded to Elite and when it didn't work right AT&T (SBC at the time) ended up running new copper from the NID. |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| reply to wavguy2003
One other thing you might try is collecting these stats at the NID to be absolutely certain there is no attenuation increase due to your POTS splitter-home run. This is sort of a leave-no-stone-unturned test just make sure there isn't some problem in your wiring connections. |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL | I agree, not a bad idea. I have a cable I can use since the NID is right outside the window where the Modem is. Nice short run. |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
edit:
May 2nd, @07:59PM
| reply to d_l
Well it looks like I *DO* have something funny on the inside wiring. This is the test direct to the NID.
Is this something a splitter would resolve? |
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d_l
Barsoom
Premium,MVM
join:2002-12-08
Reno, NV
| reply to wavguy2003
Man, am I embarrassed. I thought for certain when you said you had installed a home run that you also installed a splitter. I guess I just assumed and you know what that does. 
When you added that home run, you added bridged tap conditions close in to your modem. I don't know why the hybrid selector didn't pick it up at all, but those circuits only look for bridged tap-caused problems in the frequencies next to the upload and download boundaries. A bridged tap about 150-200 wire feet from the modem will mostly affect (attenuate) the highest tone bins 192 to 255.
So yes, a splitter will fix that upper tone bin loss that you had. Sheesh, because I "knew" you had a splitter I had no good explanation for this:
"There might be a faster that normal trail off of the tone bin bit levels above bin 160, but I don't know how to explain that."
With a splitter, you should be golden because you have extra download output power available if your modem needs it! |
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wavguy2003
370's Forever
Premium
join:2004-03-18
Saint Charles, IL
·AT&T Midwest
| Don't be too hard on yourself. My ignorance of the soft white underbelly of DSL is what tripped you up.
I consider myself educated now so pat yourself on the back for that.
I was looking at the Wilcom PS-15 as it can be installed inside which is where I'd like to place it. (Single run to it from the NID of course). |
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justbits
More fiber than ATT can handle
Premium
join:2003-01-08
Chicago, IL
·AT&T Midwest
·AT&T Yahoo
| You can always use one of the "free" microfilters that came with your DSL install kit instead of buying a NID splitter. Microfilters can work in the NID, but be aware that they aren't environment hardened. In my home run, I have one pair of wire from the NID into my basement. From there, it goes into a microfilter. One side is a direct run to the DSL modem and the rest of the house voice wiring goes on the other microfilter connector. |
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