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Upgrade - Lexcat »
« Problems DSL after 8PM, Sanford NC  
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GVG

join:2006-09-19
Charlotte, NC


edit:
May 4th, @09:44PM

MTU Settings behind router and modem

Ok, I hope I can explain this clearly. I have 5 computers on my LAN that all connect and share data through my router. The NIC's on the computers are set to an MTU of 1500. The Router in turn is connected to the 4200, and the MTU setting in the router is set to default, which does not tell me if that means 1500 or some form of auto negotiation.

I know PPPoe is MTU 1492, so do I also need to set the computers NICs to 1492, and do I also set the WAN side of my router to 1492 or is it being converted at some point by the 4200 to 1492?

Thanks


HarveyTheRabbit

@alltel.net

Whatever device is providing PPPoE authentication should be adjusting the MTU to 1492. This is common with not only the 4200 but most routers (like Linksys, D-Link, etc). So you do not need to change your MTU on a per PC basis.

It is also not a good idea to have the modem doing PPPoE and NAT, and then a router behind it doing NAT. Double NAT can cause problems with VPNs, gaming, etc... Ensure your router is doing PPPoE and the modem is a bridge.

If your router more advanced, like a Cisco, you will have to configure your router's MTU per interface. You may need to ensure that your TCP packets MSS values are set lower than your interface's MTU. I would recommend 1452. Under the interface configuration of your WAN Interface:

ip mtu 1492
ip tcp adjust-mss 1452


bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
·Windstream

said by HarveyTheRabbit :

Whatever device is providing PPPoE authentication should be adjusting the MTU to 1492. This is common with not only the 4200 but most routers (like Linksys, D-Link, etc). So you do not need to change your MTU on a per PC basis.

It is also not a good idea to have the modem doing PPPoE and NAT, and then a router behind it doing NAT. Double NAT can cause problems with VPNs, gaming, etc... Ensure your router is doing PPPoE and the modem is a bridge.

If your router more advanced, like a Cisco, you will have to configure your router's MTU per interface. You may need to ensure that your TCP packets MSS values are set lower than your interface's MTU. I would recommend 1452. Under the interface configuration of your WAN Interface:

ip mtu 1492
ip tcp adjust-mss 1452
This is absolutely false!

If your clients are set to 1500 and they try to send through your router at 1492, every single large packet/segment/frame that goes out your WAN port will fragment!

Set every client to 1492 as well as the router if you want 100% efficiency!


evilghost
Premium
join:2003-11-22
Springville, AL
·Windstream


edit:
May 5th, @12:30PM

said by bsc See Profile :

If your clients are set to 1500 and they try to send through your router at 1492, every single large packet/segment/frame that goes out your WAN port will fragment!

Set every client to 1492 as well as the router if you want 100% efficiency!
What am I missing? I consider 1450 bytes a large packet. LAN MTU is 1500, WAN is 1492.





bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
·Windstream

Use your head dude. OK I wasn't specific enough with exact numbers but clearly you are smart enough to know what I meant.

If your hosts are sending 1493-1500 bytes packets THEY WILL FRAGMENT. If you are downloading large files, etc then pretty much everything is going to send at its MAX of 1500. So for normal web surfing and the like, sure it won't have an effect. But for downloads you will see inefficiency.

Will it absolutely destroy your speeds? Not in most situations, no, but its not optimal either.


bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
·Windstream


edit:
May 5th, @12:49PM

reply to GVG
And before you start jabbering again, of course you have to remember that the MSS is going to be 40 less than the MTU due to the ethernet and other headers that get added to the data.

1450 is going to produce 1490 on MTU and 1470 is actually going to produce 1510. This is why you see the discrepency. Nothing will fragment until 1493.

GVG

join:2006-09-19
Charlotte, NC
OK, so I am going to set all my computers and my router to 1492, that way when it hits the DSL modem everything is the right size from the start.


bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
·Windstream

said by GVG See Profile :

OK, so I am going to set all my computers and my router to 1492, that way when it hits the DSL modem everything is the right size from the start.
Also keep in mind, if you are using Vista, it has Path MTU detection enabled out of the box and it will tune itself.


evilghost
Premium
join:2003-11-22
Springville, AL
·Windstream


edit:
May 5th, @01:03PM

reply to bsc
said by bsc See Profile :

Use your head dude. OK I wasn't specific enough with exact numbers but clearly you are smart enough to know what I meant.

If your hosts are sending 1493-1500 bytes packets THEY WILL FRAGMENT. If you are downloading large files, etc then pretty much everything is going to send at its MAX of 1500. So for normal web surfing and the like, sure it won't have an effect. But for downloads you will see inefficiency.

Will it absolutely destroy your speeds? Not in most situations, no, but its not optimal either.
Sorry you misread my post, I really wasn't trying to be a jerk, I'm not very strong with some of the aspects of networking so I was trying to wrap my head around the MTU and evaluable setting local MTU to 1492. In testing it appears that I fragment with a packet size greater than 1450 bytes.

How could I use tcpdump to detect fragmentation on live traffic flows?

GVG

join:2006-09-19
Charlotte, NC
reply to bsc
Actually I am running all Macs.


bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
·Windstream

reply to evilghost
said by evilghost See Profile :

Sorry you misread my post, I really wasn't trying to be a jerk, I'm not very strong with some of the aspects of networking so I was trying to wrap my head around the MTU and weight setting local MTU to 1492. In testing it apperas I fragment with a packet size greater than 1450 bytes.

How could I use tcpdump to detect fragmentation on live traffic flows?
I apologize then, I definitely did snap there. I thought you were telling me I was wrong. We can still be friends!

I will elaborate a little.. the number you put in (1450) is essentially the raw data. This is going to be the SEGMENT size. This is a part of Layer 4 in the OSI model, where TCP and UDP live. Before the data gets sent out it gets headers added from Layer 3 (ICMP for a ping) and Layer 2 (Ethernet in most cases and in the case of DSL PPPoE headers get added here).

All in all in a PPPoE environment, you are going to add 48 (40 for ethernet and other header data and 8 for PPPoE) bytes to the SEGMENT SIZE before you send the data out. So the largest SEGMENT SIZE that will not fragment is 1452.

GVG

join:2006-09-19
Charlotte, NC
Now I am confused. Should I set MTU to 1492 or 1452?


evilghost
Premium
join:2003-11-22
Springville, AL
·Windstream

reply to bsc
said by bsc See Profile :

said by evilghost See Profile :

Sorry you misread my post, I really wasn't trying to be a jerk, I'm not very strong with some of the aspects of networking so I was trying to wrap my head around the MTU and weight setting local MTU to 1492. In testing it apperas I fragment with a packet size greater than 1450 bytes.

How could I use tcpdump to detect fragmentation on live traffic flows?
I apologize then, I definitely did snap there. I thought you were telling me I was wrong. We can still be friends!

I will elaborate a little.. the number you put in (1450) is essentially the raw data. This is going to be the SEGMENT size. This is a part of Layer 4 in the OSI model, where TCP and UDP live. Before the data gets sent out it gets headers added from Layer 3 (ICMP for a ping) and Layer 2 (Ethernet in most cases and in the case of DSL PPPoE headers get added here).

All in all in a PPPoE environment, you are going to add 48 (40 for ethernet and other header data and 8 for PPPoE) bytes to the SEGMENT SIZE before you send the data out. So the largest SEGMENT SIZE that will not fragment is 1452.
No problem with the misunderstanding, thanks for your elaboration. I know you're very knowledgeable about the networks sections that I'm strongly deficient in so I appreciate tapping your brain.

I assume setting the LAN to 1492 does nothing if the router's (Tomato GNU/Linux in this case) LAN interface is set to 1500 or does this not matter since fragmentation should not occur since the largest packet will be 1492?

Example; WAN 1492, all LAN interfaces 1492 on client machines, 1500 on LAN interface on router. Fragmentation will not occur since all traffic to/from clients will be MTU 1492 matching WAN MTU?


bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
reply to GVG
Sorry,

1452 is the max segment size (MSS). 1492 is the max transmission unit (MTU)


bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
·Windstream

reply to evilghost
Correct, fragmentation will not occur because the clients are sending 1492.

As you can imagine you are taking a slight hit on LAN transfer efficiency in order to maximize your WAN transfers. I think it is more than fair due to the high throughput of a LAN anyway.


evilghost
Premium
join:2003-11-22
Springville, AL
·Windstream

said by bsc See Profile :

Correct, fragmentation will not occur because the clients are sending 1492.

As you can imagine you are taking a slight hit on LAN transfer efficiency in order to maximize your WAN transfers. I think it is more than fair due to the high throughput of a LAN anyway.
Thanks, great explanation.


bsc
Premium
join:2003-03-11
Lexington, KY
·Windstream

reply to GVG
Also, this is just me being technical.. but since you seem to be interested in learning:

By the time it goes out on to the wire, it is no longer a packet, it is called a frame at this point.

Layer 4 (TCP, UDP) - Segments
Layer 3 (IP, ICMP, ARP...) - Packets
Layer 2 (ethernet, ATM, Frame relay, PPP...) - Frame
Layer 1 - this is the physical layer and everything is just 1s and 0s here (Bits)
-
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